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== Timeline question ==
{{ArchiveList}}
Where's this idea...
:''This section alludes to a timeline in which Bernice Summerfield travelled with the Doctor. Due to the intervention of Irving Braxiatel, who she met later, this timeline may no longer exist.''
...from?


Bernice alludes explictly to her time with the Doctor in her most recent novella collection and both of her two most recent audios refer frankly to the events of that time.
== Tabbed Infobox ==


Whatever changes have been made to Benny's life, this doesn't seem to be one of them.
{{Infobox Individual
--[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 20:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
|image            = <gallery>
 
Bernice Tab 2.jpg|Young
:No idea (have removed it anyways). She also refers to the Doctor by name and Heaven in [[Death and the Daleks]] (and there's plenty of references back and forth throughout all the novels and audios). --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 06:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Bernice Tab 1.jpg|Older
 
</gallery>
:: Thanks so much! A case could be made that references like the [[Death and the Daleks]] one happened before Brax's time-tweaks '''but''' that fact that she still remembers the Doctor in [[The Wake]], which is for now the end of the EvilBrax arc, is absolute proof that Benny's time with the Doctor is still intact. --[[User:Richard Jones|Richard Jones]] 21:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
|alias            = '''''[[Bernice Summerfield's aliases|see list]]'''''
 
|species          = Human
'''Benny's age when her dad disappeared / when her mother died'''
|job              = Archaeologist}}
Impossible to pin down, is my thesis. Benny's always maintained that Isaac disappeared when she was 7. We know that Claire was alive at the time (''[[The Evacuation of Bernice Summerfield Considered as a Short Film by Terry Gilliam|The Evacuation of...]]'', in which Isaac has been gone for not more than six months, and Claire has just died; ''[[Return of the Living Dad]]'', in which Isaac is unaware of Claire's fate). Benny has sometimes said that she was '''orphaned''' at seven (in ''[[Return of the Living Dad]]'' and ''[[Love and War (novel)|Love and War]]''), but in ''[[The Extinction Event]]'' she states that she was eight when her mother died.
So, following the consensus at [[Tardis:Temporary_forums/Archive/Overhauling_image_policies|Temporary forum:Overhaling image policies]], and the added clarification at [[Tardis_talk:Temporary_forums/Archive/Overhauling_image_policies|the forum's talk page]], reopening this discussion is now approved.
 
I think that the best reconciliation is that Claire Summerfield's death ocurred after Benny's eighth birthday, but not long afterwards. From grown-up Benny's point of view, there's not much difference between being (say) 7.9 years old versus being (say) 8.0 years old; Benny may not have really started thinking of herself as an eight-year-old yet.
[[User:Nightsky|Nightsky]] 20:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 
== What are YOU doing this weekend? ==
Benny married Jason in the village of [[Cheldon Bonniface]], [[England]], on [[24th April]] [[2010]]. The wedding was attended by a host of guests from all space and time. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Happy Endings]]''). ''Anyone up for a party this weekend?[[User:ReTardis|ReTardis]] 17:10, April 22, 2010 (UTC)ReTardis''
 
 
==Dead and Buried?==
Shouldn't we have a page for the upcoming animation and add some info on this page?
 
==Image==
 
Since [[Irving Braxiatel]]'s profile picture is taken from ''[[Dead and Buried (webcast)|Dead and Buried]]'', I propose the same be done for Benny's picture. It's the closest either character has ever come to being onscreen. [[User:Slughorn42|Slughorn42]] [[User talk:Slughorn42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:31, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
:The image you uploaded before was deleted for not having a license, but even so, it violates [[Tardis:Guide to images]]. We prefer infobox images to be closeups of the character's face. If you can find a closeup, you can post it here for consideration. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:18, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
::[[File:Benny Infobox 1.jpg|thumb|right]][[File:Benny Infobox 2.jpg|thumb|right]]I think it's about time Benny's infobox image was updated as well. How about one of these two images? I'm partial to the first, but its perhaps a bit too dark. '''[[User:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#002B7F">P&amp;P</span>]] [[User_talk:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#FCD116;font-size:0.6em">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#CE1126;font-size:0.6em">contribs</span>]]''' 17:29, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
:::I prefer the second one. [[User:Slughorn42|Slughorn42]] [[User talk:Slughorn42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:19, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
::::Looking again, the second one is brighter and works better on a small scale. I'm going to go ahead and use that one. '''[[User:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#002B7F">P&amp;P</span>]] [[User_talk:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#FCD116;font-size:0.6em">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#CE1126;font-size:0.6em">contribs</span>]]''' 19:30, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
:I've reverted back to the original while the discussion is ongoing. Policy dictates that we don't make changes until the discussion is concluded. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:34, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
::It's been almost a month, can we move forward on this? '''[[User:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#002B7F">P&amp;P</span>]] [[User_talk:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#FCD116;font-size:0.6em">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#CE1126;font-size:0.6em">contribs</span>]]''' 16:22, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
::: I agree with this as it represents the character more to the actor than a 20ish year old picture. also Peter Summerfield's and Bev Tarrants pages also use dead an buried images. Personally I would prefer an image of Lisa Bowerman, but since we have a more in universe picture than the covers of the CDs, we should use the second picture, as I believe this is the policy regarding images taken from visula epps rather than covers of cds. '''[[User:AdricLovesNyssa|Adric♥Nyssa]]'''∩''[[User_talk:AdricLovesNyssa|Talk?]]'' 17:18, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 
I know that somewhere on this wiki is [[User:CzechOut]]'s rationale for the current image. I haven't been able to find it, so I suggest one of you ask him directly on his talk page to visit this discussion. In the meantime, the original image stays. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:13, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
:Okay, I've left a note on Czech's talk page. '''[[User:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#002B7F">P&amp;P</span>]] [[User_talk:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#FCD116;font-size:0.6em">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#CE1126;font-size:0.6em">contribs</span>]]''' 02:24, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
 
::In point of fact there probably isn't a place where I advocated the use of this current image.  Basically the infobox here was changed quite some time ago by [[User:OttselSpy25]], who correctly noted that a promotional image was inappropriate.  It had previously borne that hoary old image of Bowerman in a hastily-bought fedora up against a tree somewhere close to the BF studios. This, of course, violated [[T:IUI]], and OS25 logically went back to some of the original source material for an in-universe image.
 
::All that I did was to replace it with another image from the stories of that era that had her in a better closeup.
 
::Personally, I vote to keep that image, because the character has more of a comic history than a video one. The video has turned out to be a flash in the pan, really, whereas there is a kind of "Benny era" in DWM comics — one that is, I think, longer than the Martha and Donna eras combined.  May be wrong on the details of that comparison, but I'm at least ''approximately'' right.
 
::What I'm saying is that she was legitimately a comics companion of the Seventh Doctor in the pages of DWM, and that's what the infobox honours now, and what I personally would like to see it continue to do. I'm completely unmoved by the logic that "if Brax has an image from the video, so, too, must Benny".  Benny has a much longer history than Brax, so she has more from which to choose.  Besides, in the entirety of DWU fiction, Benny is far more important than Brax.  We, as a wiki, have a greater duty of care to ensure that we are using imagery that educates and surprises our readers.  We should be stressing the ''in''equality of Brax and Benny, because the video gives a highly mistaken impression of the two characters' relative importance. Having a comic image up of Benny says, "Hey this character is about more than what you think, if you're only going off a 10 minute video." 
 
::Besides, guys, the solution is perfectly obvious.  '''Just add the whole video of [[:File:Bernice Summerfield Dead and Buried]] to this infobox''', and that way we get both the comic image and the latter day animation. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 19:58: Tue 02 Sep 2014</span>
:::There. Added the video. Now the box has both the earliest and the latest in-universe images of her.  Easy. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 20:06: Tue 02 Sep 2014</span>


[[File:Benny Lucifer Rising.jpg|thumb|right]]
Now, we've had this debate many times and overwhelmingly I've felt that we've never left with anyone happy. The main strife has always been the disagreement about which Benny should be in the infobox: The Lee Sullivan 'Novel' Benny, or the Lisa Bowerman 'audio' Bernice. In the past, we've settled on using comic images which are occasionally off-model or poorly suited for either. As of this moment, the infobox image is a weird "compromise," where it's an illustration of the "Novel" Benny clearly intended to look like Lisa Bowerman. I feel this just gives a confused vibe, and doesn't help.
::::Benny has appeared in 8 comic stories, but almost a hundred novels. If we want the infobox image to really represent her history, how about this one from one of the VNAs? It's from one of the illustrations in [[Lucifer Rising]]. It looks less "cartoony" than the Pureblood one, and its looking left. '''[[User:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#002B7F">P&amp;P</span>]] [[User_talk:PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#FCD116;font-size:0.6em">talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/PicassoAndPringles|<span style="color:#CE1126;font-size:0.6em">contribs</span>]]''' 17:08, September 3, 2014 (UTC)


:::::I wouldn't be in favour of that image because it's a unique, atypical look. She has dreadlocks in exactly one story, and this is the ''only'' image of that phase that exists.  And "looking left" is not an absolute requirement. Nice if you can get it, but far better to get a high quality, representative, closeup image of the character.  Ironically, [[DWM 199]], which contains the ''[[Lucifer Rising]]'' prelude, also contains an episode of ''[[Emperor of the Daleks]]'', a Benny comic, and she is much closer to the image in the current picture: short hair, big earrings.  I honestly think that [[:File:Benny Lucifer Rising.jpg]] is the most ''un''-representative image that could be chosen for the infobox. That said, '''I think it needs to go on the page''', with an explanation that, for a brief time, she had dreads. (So if you're the uploader, thanks for finding this helpful image!)
BUT! Due to the aforementioned debate covering tabbed infobox images, I think I now have a solution. We have a tabbed gallery in the main box, which will include one image each of the two main "Benny" incarnations. I've selected two images, one from [[GRAPHIC]]: ''[[Untitled (We Are Time's Champions illustration)|Untitled]]'' by [[Lee Sullivan]] and the other from the inner illustrations of [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Blood & Steel (audio anthology)|Blood & Steel]]'', and used these for a conceptual tabbed gallery. I even tracked down [[DWM 267]] to scan the former myself.


:::::As for your numerical comparisons, there may be more prose '''stories''' than comic ones, but there are many more comic '''images''' of her. And of course we exclude covers in this search, because we only resort to covers when there are '''no other''' possibilities.
The only controversial part here is that I've made the tabbed gallery "chronological," so the original Lee design appears first. But this helps display the two main incarnations of Miss Summerfield, and I feel is also really fun to switch back-and-forth between. Obviously, we could also get into the argument of if each of these images are '''''perfect'''''... But I think these are ultimately the right picks.


:::::Stlll, for the first decade of the character's existence — mostly, but not exclusively, the pre-Bowerman era — she was drawn as depicted in DWM. I mean, she's pretty well consistent from [[:File:NA009 loveandwar.jpg|her introductory ''Love and War'' cover]] through to [[:File:NA033 parasite.jpg|the cover for ''Parasite'']] and even into the first part of the audio era.  Heck, [[:File:Oh No It Isn't audio cover.jpg|the cover for the audio ''Oh No It Isn't!'']] is practically ripped from the pages of DWM!
Showing a more recent image of [[Lisa Bowerman]] lets us use tab terms that are in-universe. I think it would look a lot worse if it said "Illustrated" and "Live-action." I also just think we're not going to find a better illustration of Lee Sullivan's Benny design.


:::::So, look, I know that if you come to this character here in the 2010s, [[Lisa Bowerman]] looms larges in your mind, and you're just not going to like this DWM-centric approach to the character.  But the bulk of the in-universe, '''visual''' representation of this character really is driven by 1990s DWM. And for the infobox not to reflect that is to give a mistaken impression about the character to our readers. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 17:25: Thu 04 Sep 2014</span>
Please tell me what you all think! [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 03:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


So, now that Benny has been in live action, should we put a picture from Transmission from Mars in the infobox?
: Would prefer Lisa Bowerman to be first, but it's not a battle I'm going to win here. Likewise, I actually think I would prefer "Illustrated" and Live-action", but the images here are ''perfect''. I bemoan the fact that the highest quality unobscured shot of Bowerman that fits our rules isn't in her traditional costume, but I'm sure that'll EVENTUALLY rectify itself. As it stands, I'm okay with this. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
(video link removed by admin per [[Tardis:Video policy]]) {{Unsigned|Icecreamdif}}


:Based on CzechOut's comments above, it doesn't sound like this one video merits inclusion in the infobox. If it's only one video, then Benny is still visually depicted far more in the comics, per CzechOut's argument. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:44, June 13, 2015 (UTC)
:: I support this change, and in particular I really appreciate the way the two proposed images overlap in head angle and eye placement. Like Memes I'm not sure if "Young" and "Older" are the best names for the tabs, but whatever we end up going with, this will be a big improvement to the page! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 13:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)


Makes sense.[[Special:Contributions/69.143.223.170|69.143.223.170]]<sup>[[User talk:69.143.223.170#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:25, June 23, 2015 (UTC)
: I agree with these images, including the order, but I would label the tabs "Novel" and "Audio" (or perhaps "Prose" and "Audio"). The adaptation from one medium to the next is the real reason these two Bernices are distinct enough to be worth presenting side by side, so labelling them as if the reason were that she got older just feels a bit confusing. It would also open the door to adding tabs whenever a character naturally and visibly ages to some degree, which doesn't seem viable or quantifiable. And there are probably other characters who were first illustrated and were later cast - for example, Jason Kane. We'll want to be able to give them tabbed galleries that follow a consistent format, but it won't always be possible to fudge one medium's iteration as having aged into the other, so making it explicit that we're arranging them by medium seems important. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
== Image revisited ==
[[File:Bernice_Prelude_Sanctuaru.jpg|thumb]]
The most logical image to use would be an illustration from the ''Prelude'' short stories, which tie into the novels and are where Benny first appeared. Summerfield is a novel character before anything else, and I'm against using an image from the comics because they rarely capture the likeness of the character at all. Also, Summerfield had few comic appearances, and appeared more in almost every other medium. I've suggested the right image, as it captures her "adventurous spirit" and what not, unlike the doey faced main pic we have right now which makes her look like she just did some kind of hard drugs. [[T:GTI]] makes it clear that personality in images comes before all else, and I can certainly say that this image gets that down more than any comic image could even try to. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 22:30, September 8, 2015 (UTC)


: Never the less, I will start hunting through DWM comics to try and find an image other than this from the magazine that resembles the character in any way. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 22:39, September 8, 2015 (UTC)
: I think a tabbed infobox is a wonderful idea, and those two images are really well picked. They actually offer a really good general view as to what Benny actually looks like, which is something the previous view infobox images failed to do in my opinion. As Benny is first and foremost a prose character, I think this order is the best possible one. I am not entirely sure "young" and "older" are the best titles, and maybe something more akin to which medium the images cover would be good (maybe something like "prose" or "audio" though both of these don't seem quite right either). That is, however, a small details, and the only flaw I can find in this proposal. Benny is a character that is dearest to my heart than just about any other fictional character, and I believe this would be a huge improvement to her page and coverage on this wiki. [[User:Liria10|Liria10]] [[User talk:Liria10|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
:: Arguably, we should use an image from ''[[Emperor of the Daleks!]]'', as that was the only story with her in DWM with art by the man who designed her, [[Lee Sullivan]]. The problem with this (and the "use DWM images" argument) is that there are very few close-ups of her alone within the comics. So when you get an artist who can competently capture her there's few few frames that come close to being fit for info-box... [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 00:02, September 9, 2015 (UTC)


:::(I added a heading to separate this discussion from the previous one, as they deal with different issues.)
::: Okay, a full month since the last reply. I think a lot of people are burnt out on these discussions, and there's a lot of other ongoing threads elsewhere, of course; so it's only to be expected that this wouldn't get vast outpourings of support. But we've had a nice selection of people chiming in positively under the circumstances, with thoughtful commentary rather than just "yes that's nice", so I think the time has come to close this. It's just a very, very good idea. Such nicely-matched images are an occasion to be seized, and policy-wise, the major updates to our image policy were reason enough to revisit this.  


:::First, [[Tardis:Guide to images]] '''never''' states that personality comes before all else. With regard to the issue in question, the key phrase is "Where possible, you should go with the an extremely tight cropping of a person's face." Since it is possible to have a tight cropping of Benny, that is what we require.
::: So yes, '''we're implementing this''', and in accordance with suggestion, I'm going to go ahead and authorise the "Prose"/"Audio" tabs. This can be used in other analogous cases, but obviously, let's not carried away — for the time being stick with illustration-first, much-later-cast characters; let's not be adding images in every medium for every Doctor, or anything like ''that''. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)


:::Second, of the images you've proposed, only "Younger and Wiser 1" comes close to being cropped tightly enough, though an argument could be made for "Emperor of the Daleks 1". The other images could be placed elsewhere on the article, but they will not be considered for the infobox. Please note that the [[Talk:Tenth Doctor/Archive 2|debate over Ten's image]] established just how tightly we want images cropped. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:41, September 9, 2015 (UTC)
== Dead link ==


:::: Yes it does.
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
 
::::: "''But this particular sly expression conveys the character's central duplicity, and '''thus overrides other concerns'''.''"
 
:::: Second off, when I say that there aren't a lot of strong choices from the comics, I'm not opening declaring that every image I chose was a perfect fit. Yet every image here is ''far superior'' to the one we use now because none of these capture the character under a state of mind not usually occupied by the character (in the one we're using right now I believe that she's being hypnotized) and all of these are drawn by artists who got far closer to what the character was meant to look like. We wouldn't use a TVC comic drawing of Sarah-Jane in an infobox, now would we? [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 13:59, September 9, 2015 (UTC)
 
:::::Hold on a moment. Your quote comes from the '''[[Tardis:Guide to images#Eyes|Eyes]]''' section, when describing whether an image should be left-looking. The issue with your Benny images comes from the '''[[Tardis:Guide to images#Tight focus|Tight focus]]''' section, which says, "Where possible, you should go with the an extremely tight cropping of a person's face." There are multiple images of Benny, so it absolutely is possible to get a tight cropping. Also note in the tight focus section that the right image of Four is rejected as being not tight enough focus, even though it does a great job of showcasing his personality. So personality does '''not''' outweigh tight cropping. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:19, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
 
If there are no objections, I'm going to be changing the info box pic to [[:File:DWM 305 Bernice 7 1.jpg]] in a couple days. In fits all the criteria that was layed out in favor of the current pic, bit it actually ''looks'' like Bernice. Plus the inclusion of colour which is arguably not a bad thing. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 18:41, September 10, 2015 (UTC)
 
:I object. I don't think it's a good idea to have large speech bubbles in character infobox images. If the character is a minor one and we don't have a choice, OK. But as I mentioned above, we have plenty of images of Benny. Find one as tightly cropped as the current one, preferably without any speech bubbles, and post it here for consideration. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:19, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
 
This work for you? [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 19:19, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
:I reverted the addition of that image to the page because there has been little discussion on this — just you and I — and it was an issue of interest just last year. Let's give it some time for others to add their input. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:07, September 15, 2015 (UTC)
 
It's super frustrating that we have such limited discussion on this site now. This is meant to be, like, the most popular Wikia site right? Or at least up there. Barely anyone edits, and no one contributes to discussions anymore. At best you'll get two people and one admin who just pops in every once to tell people to play nice.
 
For anyone who finds this discussion in the next ten years, here are the options to replace the current image: [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 18:28, October 16, 2015 (UTC)
 
<gallery>
Emperor of the Daleks Bernice 2.jpg|''[[Emperor of the Daleks!]]'' 1
Emperor of the Daleks Bernice 1.jpg|''[[Emperor of the Daleks!]]'' 2
Bernice Prelude Sanctuaru.jpg|''[[Prelude Sanctuary]]''
Summer Special 1994 Bernice 2.jpg|''[[Younger and Wiser]]'' 1
Summer Special 1994 Bernice.jpg|''[[Younger and Wiser]]'' 2
DWM 305 Bernice 7 1.jpg|''[[The Last Word]]'' 1
</gallery>


* http://www.sorddin.com/broadsword-old/issue4/twd4.html ([http://web.archive.org/web/20161002072458/http://www.sorddin.com/broadsword-old/issue4/twd4.html archive])
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-17 17:41:53, Not Found
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-18 16:54:31, Not Found
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-19 17:35:22, Not Found
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-22 18:03:55, Not Found
** In [[Bernice Summerfield]] on 2023-04-24 18:54:47, Not Found


I say either the last Word or younger and wiser 2 if we have to change the image as I don't see why it needs to be changed it fits the bill. personally I would like an image of Lisa Bowerman playing her from Transmission from Mars but that will never happen. Anyone object to me adding that to the bulk of the article. '''[[User:AdricLovesNyssa|Adric♥Nyssa]]'''∩''[[User_talk:AdricLovesNyssa|Talk?]]'' 18:38, October 16, 2015 (UTC)
The web page has been saved by the Internet Archive. Please consider linking to an appropriate archived version: [http://web.archive.org/web/20161002072458/http://www.sorddin.com/broadsword-old/issue4/twd4.html].
--[[User:Botgo50|Botgo50]] ([[User talk:Botgo50|my talk]], [[User talk:Bongolium500|operator's talk]]) 18:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:25, 6 June 2023

Archive.png
 Archives: #1

Tabbed Infobox[[edit source]]

So, following the consensus at Temporary forum:Overhaling image policies, and the added clarification at the forum's talk page, reopening this discussion is now approved.

Now, we've had this debate many times and overwhelmingly I've felt that we've never left with anyone happy. The main strife has always been the disagreement about which Benny should be in the infobox: The Lee Sullivan 'Novel' Benny, or the Lisa Bowerman 'audio' Bernice. In the past, we've settled on using comic images which are occasionally off-model or poorly suited for either. As of this moment, the infobox image is a weird "compromise," where it's an illustration of the "Novel" Benny clearly intended to look like Lisa Bowerman. I feel this just gives a confused vibe, and doesn't help.

BUT! Due to the aforementioned debate covering tabbed infobox images, I think I now have a solution. We have a tabbed gallery in the main box, which will include one image each of the two main "Benny" incarnations. I've selected two images, one from GRAPHIC: Untitled by Lee Sullivan and the other from the inner illustrations of AUDIO: Blood & Steel, and used these for a conceptual tabbed gallery. I even tracked down DWM 267 to scan the former myself.

The only controversial part here is that I've made the tabbed gallery "chronological," so the original Lee design appears first. But this helps display the two main incarnations of Miss Summerfield, and I feel is also really fun to switch back-and-forth between. Obviously, we could also get into the argument of if each of these images are perfect... But I think these are ultimately the right picks.

Showing a more recent image of Lisa Bowerman lets us use tab terms that are in-universe. I think it would look a lot worse if it said "Illustrated" and "Live-action." I also just think we're not going to find a better illustration of Lee Sullivan's Benny design.

Please tell me what you all think! OS25🤙☎️ 03:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Would prefer Lisa Bowerman to be first, but it's not a battle I'm going to win here. Likewise, I actually think I would prefer "Illustrated" and Live-action", but the images here are perfect. I bemoan the fact that the highest quality unobscured shot of Bowerman that fits our rules isn't in her traditional costume, but I'm sure that'll EVENTUALLY rectify itself. As it stands, I'm okay with this. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 02:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I support this change, and in particular I really appreciate the way the two proposed images overlap in head angle and eye placement. Like Memes I'm not sure if "Young" and "Older" are the best names for the tabs, but whatever we end up going with, this will be a big improvement to the page! – n8 (☎) 13:17, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I agree with these images, including the order, but I would label the tabs "Novel" and "Audio" (or perhaps "Prose" and "Audio"). The adaptation from one medium to the next is the real reason these two Bernices are distinct enough to be worth presenting side by side, so labelling them as if the reason were that she got older just feels a bit confusing. It would also open the door to adding tabs whenever a character naturally and visibly ages to some degree, which doesn't seem viable or quantifiable. And there are probably other characters who were first illustrated and were later cast - for example, Jason Kane. We'll want to be able to give them tabbed galleries that follow a consistent format, but it won't always be possible to fudge one medium's iteration as having aged into the other, so making it explicit that we're arranging them by medium seems important. PintlessMan ☎ 13:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
I think a tabbed infobox is a wonderful idea, and those two images are really well picked. They actually offer a really good general view as to what Benny actually looks like, which is something the previous view infobox images failed to do in my opinion. As Benny is first and foremost a prose character, I think this order is the best possible one. I am not entirely sure "young" and "older" are the best titles, and maybe something more akin to which medium the images cover would be good (maybe something like "prose" or "audio" though both of these don't seem quite right either). That is, however, a small details, and the only flaw I can find in this proposal. Benny is a character that is dearest to my heart than just about any other fictional character, and I believe this would be a huge improvement to her page and coverage on this wiki. Liria10 ☎ 22:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Okay, a full month since the last reply. I think a lot of people are burnt out on these discussions, and there's a lot of other ongoing threads elsewhere, of course; so it's only to be expected that this wouldn't get vast outpourings of support. But we've had a nice selection of people chiming in positively under the circumstances, with thoughtful commentary rather than just "yes that's nice", so I think the time has come to close this. It's just a very, very good idea. Such nicely-matched images are an occasion to be seized, and policy-wise, the major updates to our image policy were reason enough to revisit this.
So yes, we're implementing this, and in accordance with suggestion, I'm going to go ahead and authorise the "Prose"/"Audio" tabs. This can be used in other analogous cases, but obviously, let's not carried away — for the time being stick with illustration-first, much-later-cast characters; let's not be adding images in every medium for every Doctor, or anything like that. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 17:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

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