Talk:Last Great Time War: Difference between revisions
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==Shouldn't "The Parting of the Ways" be in the main History section?== | |||
The conventional wisdom may be that the Doctor ended the Time War when he destroyed (or [[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|"destroyed"]]) Gallifrey and the Daleks using the Moment. The article as written seems to reflect that. | |||
However, there's significant in-universe evidence that the [[Dalek Emperor (The Parting of the Ways)|Dalek Emperor]]'s survival and schemes as seen in ''[[Bad Wolf (TV story)|Bad Wolf]]'' and ''[[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]'', and his destruction at the glowy hands of the [[Bad Wolf (entity)|Bad Wolf entity]], ought to be considered the actual last battle in the Time War. | |||
The first quote is right in ''The Parting of the Ways'': as she is about to disintegrate the Emperor, Bad Wolf Rose declares that "the Time War ends", present tense. | |||
The second is from ''[[Utopia (TV story)|Utopia]]'': the Doctor thinks Jack's "ultra-resurrection" by the Bad Wolf Entity has a twinge of poetic irony about it, because it means that "the last act in the Time War was Life" — which shows even more explicitly that such a major player in the War as the Doctor thinks it only ended on the Game Station. | |||
: | This would be a pretty major edit to the page, though, so I thought it wiser to write this up here and get a second opinion or five. So… thoughts? --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:29, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | ||
: This is compelling, but that evidence is a bit in tension with ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]''{{'}}s explicit identification of the [[Fall of Arcadia]] as occurring on "The Last Day of the Time War". – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 20:32, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | |||
:: Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of: | |||
::: ''"Although the day upon which Arcadia fell and Gallifrey disappeared was often referred to as the last day of the Time War ([[TV]]: [[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]), the Dalek Emperor survived the destruction of his fleet, and......([[TV]]: [[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]).''" | |||
::Don't you thinK? | |||
::Best to keep in mind, I think, that human <small>(well, sentient-beings, in a ''Doctor Who'' context)</small> events like wars don't have ''objective'' beginnings and ends; it's a matter of convention, decided upon after all is said and done. Just like Wikipedia would report the controversies among historians of a real war, so should we report that the Bad Wolf Entity and the Tenth Doctor said one thing, but later the Eleventh Doctor said another thing. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:43, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | |||
I | : I had been meaning to bring this up because the [[The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)|novelisation]] of ''Day'' establishes that there were many days the Doctor considered to be the "last" of the Time War. Honestly, to chronicle all of these days I considered creating [[Last Day of the Time War]] which included the fall of Arcadia, the Eighth Doctor's regeneration, the War Doctor visiting the barn, the Tenth Doctor kissing Queen Elizabeth, the Doctors being trapped in a cell, and the Eleventh Doctor and Clara visiting the National Gallery. Obviously, other sources where a "last act" is mentioned are also relevant. Here is the relevant passage: | ||
:{{quote|The last day of the Time War. That was wrong, he suddenly realised. Because somehow all those different days, spread across his life, were also the last day. Somehow the last day had become millions of days, each of them, impossibly, the last. ''No such thing as last'', something screamed in his mind, laughing at him.|Eleventh Doctor|The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)}} | |||
: What do other people think? --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:54, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | |||
:: What I think? Right now, I'm thinking two things, "bless good ol'Steven Moffat clearing up Wiki problems before we even think of them" and "I should really buy the ''Day of the Doctor'' novelisation already". | |||
:: More seriously, this quote alone warrants… well, if not a ''page'' on the Last Day, then at least a hefty section on "Last Great Time War". No questions about it, far as I'm concerned. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:03, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | |||
::: Count me in for [[Last Day of the Time War]]! – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 23:18, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | |||
[[User: | ::::Why do we need a page for such a thing when we already have a section on this page devoted to the last day? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:23, June 30, 2019 (UTC) | ||
::::: Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for [[The Peace]] despite it having its own section on the [[War in Heaven]]; we have a page for [[Gallifreyan physiology]] despite it having its own section on [[Time Lord]]. It's why [[:Template:Main]] exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC) | |||
::::::Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Nit-picky and grammar-y is exactly what we need :) I still think [[Last Day of the Time War]] is appropriate, if just because "Last Day" is given as a proper noun in ''[[The Day of the Doctor (TV story)|The Day of the Doctor]]'', but you've persuaded me that it's no longer as clear-cut as I originally saw it. I look forward to following the further conversation on this page. – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 14:34, July 1, 2019 (UTC) | |||
::: I think an article like Last Day of the Time War makes sense as this article presents the Time War in a linear sense (as much as that can be achieved) but the Doctor doesn't see it like that, many days throughout the war are the last day. In my opinion, if we were to put all the last days in the [[Last Great Time War#Nearing the end|last days section]] it would be incredibly jarring to readers. Imagine following the war chronologically down the page and when coming to the conclusion of the war you are greeted with the events of ''[[The Night of the Doctor (TV story)|The Night of the Doctor]]'' and ''[[Bad Wolf (TV story)|Bad Wolf]]'' / ''[[The Parting of the Ways (TV story)|The Parting of the Ways]]'', stuff that is repeated in its entirety in the [[Last Great Time War#Involvement of the Eighth Doctor|Involvement of the Eighth Doctor]] and [[Last Great Time War#Aftermath|Aftermath]] sections. It would be ridiculous! | |||
::: In short, putting it all on a single section within the main part of this article wouldn't work because the last days as the Doctor sees them are actually multiple events spread across their lives and the war itself. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:10, July 2, 2019 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 22:04, 18 August 2021
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Shouldn't "The Parting of the Ways" be in the main History section?[[edit source]]
The conventional wisdom may be that the Doctor ended the Time War when he destroyed (or "destroyed") Gallifrey and the Daleks using the Moment. The article as written seems to reflect that.
However, there's significant in-universe evidence that the Dalek Emperor's survival and schemes as seen in Bad Wolf and The Parting of the Ways, and his destruction at the glowy hands of the Bad Wolf entity, ought to be considered the actual last battle in the Time War.
The first quote is right in The Parting of the Ways: as she is about to disintegrate the Emperor, Bad Wolf Rose declares that "the Time War ends", present tense.
The second is from Utopia: the Doctor thinks Jack's "ultra-resurrection" by the Bad Wolf Entity has a twinge of poetic irony about it, because it means that "the last act in the Time War was Life" — which shows even more explicitly that such a major player in the War as the Doctor thinks it only ended on the Game Station.
This would be a pretty major edit to the page, though, so I thought it wiser to write this up here and get a second opinion or five. So… thoughts? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 12:29, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- This is compelling, but that evidence is a bit in tension with The Day of the Doctor's explicit identification of the Fall of Arcadia as occurring on "The Last Day of the Time War". – N8 ☎ 20:32, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of:
- "Although the day upon which Arcadia fell and Gallifrey disappeared was often referred to as the last day of the Time War (TV: The Day of the Doctor), the Dalek Emperor survived the destruction of his fleet, and......(TV: The Parting of the Ways)."
- Don't you thinK?
- Good point, but nothing we can't cover with "another account" language, if even that. All it would take would be to preface the section about the Game Station with something along the lines of:
- Best to keep in mind, I think, that human (well, sentient-beings, in a Doctor Who context) events like wars don't have objective beginnings and ends; it's a matter of convention, decided upon after all is said and done. Just like Wikipedia would report the controversies among historians of a real war, so should we report that the Bad Wolf Entity and the Tenth Doctor said one thing, but later the Eleventh Doctor said another thing. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 20:43, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- I had been meaning to bring this up because the novelisation of Day establishes that there were many days the Doctor considered to be the "last" of the Time War. Honestly, to chronicle all of these days I considered creating Last Day of the Time War which included the fall of Arcadia, the Eighth Doctor's regeneration, the War Doctor visiting the barn, the Tenth Doctor kissing Queen Elizabeth, the Doctors being trapped in a cell, and the Eleventh Doctor and Clara visiting the National Gallery. Obviously, other sources where a "last act" is mentioned are also relevant. Here is the relevant passage:
The last day of the Time War. That was wrong, he suddenly realised. Because somehow all those different days, spread across his life, were also the last day. Somehow the last day had become millions of days, each of them, impossibly, the last. No such thing as last, something screamed in his mind, laughing at him.
- What do other people think? --Borisashton ☎ 20:54, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- What I think? Right now, I'm thinking two things, "bless good ol'Steven Moffat clearing up Wiki problems before we even think of them" and "I should really buy the Day of the Doctor novelisation already".
- More seriously, this quote alone warrants… well, if not a page on the Last Day, then at least a hefty section on "Last Great Time War". No questions about it, far as I'm concerned. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:03, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Count me in for Last Day of the Time War! – N8 ☎ 23:18, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Why do we need a page for such a thing when we already have a section on this page devoted to the last day? Shambala108 ☎ 23:23, June 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for The Peace despite it having its own section on the War in Heaven; we have a page for Gallifreyan physiology despite it having its own section on Time Lord. It's why Template:Main exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – N8 ☎ 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? Shambala108 ☎ 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Nit-picky and grammar-y is exactly what we need :) I still think Last Day of the Time War is appropriate, if just because "Last Day" is given as a proper noun in The Day of the Doctor, but you've persuaded me that it's no longer as clear-cut as I originally saw it. I look forward to following the further conversation on this page. – N8 ☎ 14:34, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Not to be all nit-picky and grammar-y, but "Last day of the Time War" isn't a noun, it's a phrase. I still don't get what's so wrong with writing a full treatment on this page, where a section already exists, instead of making users go to another page to get the full information? Shambala108 ☎ 02:31, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- Well, considering that, as a topic in the Doctor Who universe, the Time War is a lot more than just its ending; and that, given the conflicting ideas concerning when it happened, a full description will take a lot more than just a summary of events; I think it wouldn't be crazy to have a separate page dedicated to the Last Day with a less-detailed description on this page. We have a page for The Peace despite it having its own section on the War in Heaven; we have a page for Gallifreyan physiology despite it having its own section on Time Lord. It's why Template:Main exists. And isn't our wiki's policy that any noun is eligible for its own page? I might be misremembering! – N8 ☎ 00:50, July 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I think an article like Last Day of the Time War makes sense as this article presents the Time War in a linear sense (as much as that can be achieved) but the Doctor doesn't see it like that, many days throughout the war are the last day. In my opinion, if we were to put all the last days in the last days section it would be incredibly jarring to readers. Imagine following the war chronologically down the page and when coming to the conclusion of the war you are greeted with the events of The Night of the Doctor and Bad Wolf / The Parting of the Ways, stuff that is repeated in its entirety in the Involvement of the Eighth Doctor and Aftermath sections. It would be ridiculous!
- In short, putting it all on a single section within the main part of this article wouldn't work because the last days as the Doctor sees them are actually multiple events spread across their lives and the war itself. --Borisashton ☎ 16:10, July 2, 2019 (UTC)
