Talk:Penis

Possible vandalism?

While I remember the Doctor implying he has "two of other things" besides hearts, I don't remember anything specific this citation could be based on.... do we count this as vandalism or improper citation or what? Jamar Redstone ☎ 17:40, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Just delete it. We really don't know for sure what he was referring to.--Matau

Image

If the image previously on this page is reuploaded as a JPG file, I see no reason why it should be deleted. T:NOT SFW says "However, we make no guarantee that the images and articles on this site will be 100% 'safe for work'. This is because the Doctor Who universe is not a 100% 'safe for work' creation," so unless there's some other, less obvious rule being broken I don't see the issue. The3rdnimon ☎ 02:18, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

The rule on this site not being "safe for work" was created in reference to a controversial upload of a picture of half of a woman's ass. This was not created in replacement for, nor does it retroactively revoke, Wiki's community guidelines.

Don't post porn, shock images, or explicit descriptions of sex... On most wikis, this includes nudity (including bare breasts and butts).Fandom Community Guidelines

The page goes on to clarify that artsy representations of nudity might be accepted, and it may be acccepted if it is a medical or educational wiki. Zygon, I can promise you, is not an artsy production. We are no a medical or educational wiki. We are a wiki about a British children's television show from the 1960s. Thus porn is not acceptable. OS25 (Talk) 02:52, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

You're materially wrong about the content of this wiki, OS25. Please consult Tardis:ParentPage. We're about a franchise that includes material up to the equivalent of (US) R-rated material, which certainly can include brief, full-frontal male nudity. Torchwood: Children of Earth actually does include one shot of Barrowman's penis, so it's not just this BBV image. And Doctor Who was never a children's program. It was, at the explicit will of Sydney Newman, made by the (adult) Drama Department. And later producers have often confirmed it is meant for families, not kids. Never mind the fact that several of the 1990s novels are well and truly adult in nature, particularly RTD's New Adventures entry.

Moreover, if Doctor Who were considered an "aimed at children" show by Fandom, anon editing wouldn't be allowed. But it's not. It's important to remember that the parent show, in America, airs at 9 PM, not 9 AM.

As a local bureaucrat, I have absolutely no issue with this image. I'm going to consult with my colleagues at Fandom later in the week to see whether this image is actually in violation of the FCG. It may well be, and if so, I'll have no problem deleting it. But I have a duty of care to the non-censorship policy of the wiki to actually get, and not just assume, a Fandom takedown request.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  03:24: Mon 08 May 2017

I brought up the most simple representation of the idea of the wikia merely to illustrate that we're a wiki about a fictional franchise. But I stand by my point that such a graphic image is unhelpful on a site covering a fictional sci-fi franchise.

Thank you for investigating further. OS25 (Talk) 04:07, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

One could argue it suits a fair bit. For example, that penises aren't just limited to humanity, and that Zygons assume that among other things when engaging human form. If we feel the need to have an article describing the existence of penises within the in-universe context of Doctor Who, how does adding an image that suggests some details of this and exemplifies it make things any worse?

Adding to what you said, the show itself has gone through phases of being aimed towards adults. John Wiles has said multiple times that he attempted to reach an adult audience during his era. With this in mind, I don't think Doctor Who can be considered solely a kids' show - in fact, its so diverse that you can't really make any sweeping generalisations of that nature. Cats12 (Talk) 19:32, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. But I don't think this magically means that we should allow an image to be uploaded of Daniel Harcourt's penis. OS25 (Talk) 19:36, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

If the image is in-universe and from a valid source, then I see no problem from it beeing added. Is not like it will be used on the Doctor, or even on Zygon. This is an article about penises. Is nothing but natural to illustrate it, if such an image exists within the DWU. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 19:41, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Your argument was based - at least in part - on Doctor Who being a "children's show". My argument is that Doctor Who is far too long-running to be generalised in this way. Overall it is more of a family show, and parts of it are clearly aimed towards adults. From the intellectual, high concept drama of Wiles' era to the gritty, dark VNAs, Doctor Who shows a wide spectrum of adult material, all of which is covered by this wiki. Cats12 (Talk) 19:32, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Concluding the image discussion

As promised, above, I spoke with my Fandom colleagues about this image and it was determined to be in violation of Fandom's ToU. Accordingly, it has been deleted and protected from re-uploading.

Obviously, cases of full frontal nudity in the DWU are exceedingly rare. They're so much of an outlier, there's no need to dilute the basic anti-censorship message that we promulgate on pages like Tardis:ParentPage. Indeed our ParentPage has had significant staff oversight, and no one has ever red-flagged it as possibly conflicting with broader Fandom guidelines.

We don't censor, and this wiki is not at all aimed at kids.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  21:15: Tue 09 May 2017

Age determination

If there are any problems with younger children stumbling across this by accident or similarly, couldn't an idea be to install a function that have you choose when you were born and determine whether you're old enough to read the content, or something similar, like you have on series-pages with the warning of spoilers present? --DCLM ☎ 21:33, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

No. That's not how we do things. If you click on a page about penises, prepare to read content about penises. We're not about to start a system of censorship based on who we perceive should have access to certain bits of DWU information. You wouldn't need to sign anything to take out an encyclopedia, which would also have such information. Why is this such a huge point of debate? It's not even a developed article yet.
× SOTO (💬/📈/↯) 23:14, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. We're not a wiki just about a kids show. I hope I didn't muddle the waters too much by jokingly bringing up that aspect earlier. OS25 (Talk) 18:02, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

Another perspective on the image debate

I'd like to reopen the image debate here, because I think that there was some important context that was missing from the original. First off, who's to say that Zygon isn't an "artsy" production? Porn can be an art to some people. Secondly, I'd like to point out that the organ isn't exactly a "one-off" appearance in the DWU. Jokes about penises are common and there's enough mentions here that I feel that an image could be useful. After all, the end goal is to get an image for every page, if possible, right, to properly depict an encyclopedia about the DWU? Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 16:40, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

The previous verdict was quite clear. Adhering to FANDOM's terms of use comes before the policies or goals of any individual wiki, including this one. --Borisashton ☎ 17:13, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

The thing is, I'm not quite convinced that it does violate Fandom's TOS. After all, as shown, ARTSY representations of nudity are allowed. And some people do consider pornography an art form, so it would meet the standards on that merit.

Also, the image had some admin support, before Czech made his final decision.Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 17:20, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's not up to you User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived. You're not FANDOM staff, but User:CzechOut is, and he with the other staff determined the current policy. You can message him to check into it again if you'd like, but for now, unless/until he says otherwise, no need to further this discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 17:27, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

The problem is, he hasn't been responding to talk page messages and hasn't edited the wiki in a while (see Thread:271657), so I brought it here. I'd like to hear his opinion, but I don't know how to get to him. Is there a way anyone can contact User:CzechOut? 17:33, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

Well, he said in another thread that he always checks the wiki. So I guess we'll have to see if that's still true. Shambala108 ☎ 18:46, June 30, 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no new evidence can change the previous image discussion. It's still a no-go, I'm afraid, because it does still violate Fandom's ToU.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  20:57: Wed 01 Jul 2020

What if we used another photo? The shot from Children of Earth? Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 20:58, July 1, 2020 (UTC)

Regrettably, that, too, wouldn't be possible. This concept will simply have to go on, unillustrated, in perpetuity.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  22:37: Thu 06 Aug 2020

The DWU and the Anatomy of this organ

So, SOTO recently made an edit, where they mentioned that the balls and the penis are a different organ. Now, yes, that's true in the real world, but is there any DWU source that states this? Because a page for balls will have to be created if there is and at least one sentence will need to be moved. Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 02:30, July 9, 2020 (UTC)

It was you who added it to the lead in the first place, but you never provided a source. Unless the entire lead is citing Combat Rock? Danochy ☎ 02:36, July 9, 2020 (UTC)

I removed it because it was both unsourced and untrue in the real world. If a DWU source does state this, it's a different matter. What was the term used in the two most recent entries, and is it as specific about what in the crotch area was targeted as the article currently implies?
× SOTO (💬/📈/↯) 02:43, July 9, 2020 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, whenever people are kicked in the groin area or the groin area is talked about in the DWU, there's no distinction made between the two, so I felt that it could be covered here. Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived ☎ 02:48, July 9, 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

Alright, let's start this off, shall we. Hello, I am here as directed by one of your admins on Twitter with the intent of asking for this page to be removed from the wiki entirely. Now I know you have all your policies about "if it's in the franchise, we will document it" and I get it, it's somewhat commendable and you wanna have that big page count. I'm admin for another wiki myself and I know that having big page numbers is impressive and fun, so I get it, I really do. But as I will highlight, this page ultimately has no reason to exist and I guarantee you that no one will miss it once it is gone and no one will think any less of you for removing it.

At first, we have to ask ourselves; "Why indeed does this page exist? Why is it not enough to just attach a link to the Wikipedia page of the same topic?" Because I'll tell you, no one is going on TARDIS Wiki to read about sex or about the penis or vagina or whatnot - that's what Wikipedia and biology books are for - they're here to read about Doctor Who.

And it is also important to note the actual damage that pages such as this does to the reputation of the Wiki. I'm sorry to tell you and really, it must be really hard to miss but pages like this only serve more ammo for people to mock this Wiki; the more these pages remain, the more the Wiki's reputation falls, further and further. TARDIS Wiki holds some degree of power when it comes to Doctor Who documentation and it is quite awe-inspiring - but we cannot lie to ourselves and pretend like it's not because it's one of the oldest services to exist and people stick around out of loyalty. That doesn't mean, however, that this will always stick and you must ask yourself, do you want to risk it? Do you want all this work to become a footnote? You may find this laughable, after all, where else would people go? Well that may be true for now, but with the continued existence of these pages, and the continued damaged reputation, you can't say it'll remain forever.

I also have a significant number of other points which I shall now bullet-point out for you, a collection of data and reasonings you may find helpful in your decision to remove this page or not.

• Pages such as this simply do not belong on a Doctor Who Fan Wiki, it only serves as something to mock and if this were another fandom wiki, such as Wookieepedia - which do indeed have pages like this - I would be making the same point, however I find TARDIS Wiki admins easier to communicate to and quickly to respond.
• The sheer offensive nature of it all; many people find these pages to be plain offensive - no one wants to go on TARDIS Wiki and see slurs targeted towards their sexuality or gender identity. I'm sure you don't believe in these slurs but documenting them in a place they don't need to be is harmful.
• People find the pages based around specific body parts to be creepy, uncomfortable and objectifying. Is this something you want the wiki to be known for?
• No fandom wiki needs a page devoted to sexual characteristics unless the wiki is about an adult orientated work. If you feel the need to include this info, it should be on the relevant story’s page.
• It can make the Wiki just seem immature for immaculately documenting these whilst leaving other parts much more sparse.

Hopefully you can see where I am coming from here and you will join me in my journey to getting these unnecessary pages deleted. Thank you NatalieRobyn812 ☎