Talk:The Master: Difference between revisions

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Please note that, due to the templates set up to connect to specific sections of [[The Master]], headings should not be changed.


The following templates exist for the different incarnations of the Master:
== How to refer to each incarnation of the Master ==
<dpl>
category=The Master templates
columns=2
</dpl>
The way we'll now connect to this page is to write something like this:
:<pre>The [[Fourth Doctor]] faced his final challenge: a confrontation with {{Ainley}} atop the [[radio telescope]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[Logopolis (TV story)|]]''</pre>
which yields:
:The [[Fourth Doctor]] faced his final challenge: a confrontation with {{Ainley}} atop the [[radio telescope]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[Logopolis (TV story)|Logopolis]]'')


If you need to make the ''the'' capitalised, then type {{tlx|Ainley|c}}.  These links, be they {{tlx|delgado}}, {{tlx|Ainley}} or whoever will go directly to the section of this article dealing with that version of the character.
Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]] discussion and [[Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]] are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. '''This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.'''


</div>
This long comment started as something I was going to write for [[Talk:The Master (The TV Movie)]], with me saying I think it should either be both [[Tremas Master]] and [[Bruce Master]], or both [[The Master (The TV Movie)]] and [[The Master (The Keeper of Traken)]], for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the ''possible'' exception of [[The Master (Terror of the Autons)]] (the reason for which is currently discussed on [[Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons)|his talk page]] and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of [[Decayed Master]], [[War Master]], [[Missy]] and [[the Lumiat]]. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. ''Please note'' I am not saying the wiki ''must'' subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:


== Requesting Redesign of Out-of-Universe templates again ==
Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met [[the Master (Dominion)]]." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the [[Reborn Master]]." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from ''[[The Keeper of Traken (TV story)|The Keeper of Traken]]'') or "Spy Master" (from ''[[Spyfall (TV story)|Spyfall]]''). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an [[Tardis:In-universe perspective|in-universe perspective]], and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…
'''<Admin note: this page was archived due to its extreme length. The following discussion has been added to the current page as it is still under discussion.>'''


Sense the discussion on MacQueen has finally come to a close, I want to reopen discissions on the infoboxes which trail the side of the page. Rather than re-explain my position, I'll let me-from-the-past do it:
Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of ''[[Masterful (audio story)|Masterful]]'' you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
: As previously mentioned at [[Talk:Fugitive Doctor]], on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain [[Decayed Master]], not [["Decayed" Master]]). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say [[The War Master (series)|''The "War" Master'']], either; nor do the ''Masterful'' credits from which we derive the proposed [[Saxon Master]], [[Reborn Master]] or [[Tremas Master]] renames use such quotation marks.


: ''We could certainly find a way to link to a section which details the out-of-universe divergences with a ''correct tone''. Just make a template that says something like "'''Confused? [[The Master#behind_the_scnes|Check out this in-universe explanation!]]'''" and links to something in the Behind the scenes section that details the divergences. We can help readers understand the out-of-universe confusion without breaking our Article's focus and ''splitting the page in half.'' As a graphic designer, I must say that what we have set-up right now is nothing more than an eye-sore, and as multiple people have pointed out, it gets worse when you try and read the darn things. I cringe every time I read the "extra-crispy" joke, half because it's not funny and out of the tone we aim for, and half because I've read that book, and I'm not certain that analysis is entirely accurate. Looking at how the 2015 Wikia update effects the template and article makes it clear that what we are doing right now is ''simply''not acceptable by any means. It splits the reader's concentration, breaks the point of the site, and makes the set-up of that section a total mess, which is a big problem because Ainley is only on the most important Masters of all time, and the most interesting to read about. We should be filling that section with interesting details, treasure troves of images, and in-depth coverage, but we can't, because this ugly-box is blocking any of that from working.''
: This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed [[The Master (Something)]] pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, [[the Master (Terror of the Autons)|the "UNIT era" Master]]. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
::Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use [["Fugitive" Doctor]] or [["Decayed" Master]], since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there ''is'' a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.


I think that covers it. To me these boxes are a real eye-sore, more so when you actually try and read them. They remind me of the picture captions on that one Transformers wiki -- where they're trying to be funny but instead it feels ''really'' out-of-place. I think that, as suggested above, we can easily turn these into behind-the-scenes sections (without the eye-bleeding humour) and then have a template the suggests readers to check out individual sections. Quick box, easy idea, doesn't break our style. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 11:38, September 1, 2015 (UTC)
::I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


== Seb ==
::: I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
::::No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


Could [[Seb (The Caretaker)|Seb]] be counted as a companion of Missy? Because I think at he should be included in the Companions section. --[[User:Commander Awesome|Commander Awesome (AKA TheCrazyWeirdo)]] <small>([[User Talk:Thecrazyweirdo|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Thecrazyweirdo|Contribs]])</small> 21:49, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
I would choose [[Bruce Master]] over [["Bruce" Master]], [[Saxon Master]] over [["Saxon" Master]], [[Tremas Master]] over [["Tremas" Master]], [[Keller Master]] over [["Keller" Master]], etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name ''does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial"'' in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name ''as an adjective'' when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


== Order of 'After Cheeta World' ==
My vote would go to: ''The "Bruce" Master'', ''The "Tremas" Master'' and ''The "Saxon" Master'' - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are ''The Master'' but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for ''The War Master'', as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. [[User:FractalDoctor|FractalDoctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
It makes the most sense to order the subsections in 'After Cheeta World' as 'Tremas Persists' first, 'Finding new regenerations in the past' second, and 'Tremas Lost' third. This is because it makes a lot more sense to finish off the Tremas stories before we go into other incarnations. You wouldn't put 'Day of the Daleks' after 'Planet of the Spiders' on the Third Doctor's page, now would you? To people who do not realize this, this will not disrupt the Master templates. That would only happen if I changed the link. It's really frustrating to have so many revert this simple edit and to have to take it to the talk page, where no one will reply because no one ever replies to anything on this wiki anymore. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 13:00, October 1, 2015 (UTC)
: If there is not controversy by the end of the year, I will swap the sections accordingly. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 06:28, December 3, 2015 (UTC)


== Harvest of Time ==
: I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of [[“Bruce” Master]] and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it ''is'' how they’ve historically been used in-line. [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


I have removed many of the sections claiming that the Master was abducted out of time, because they seem to be based off of the asumption that all the Masters which we know of must be featured in ''The Harvest of Time''. I'm currently searching through the book to find out which incarnations are directly refered to. I'm going to start listing them off, if anyone would like to help that would be grand.
:: I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The [[Decayed Master]] is the [[Thirteenth Master]], the [[Tremas Master]] is the [[Fourteenth Master]], the [[The Master (First Frontier)|First Frontier Master]] is the [[Fifteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The TV Movie)|Bruce Master]] is the [[Sixteenth Master]], the [[The Master (The Fallen)|Preacher Master]] is the [[Seventeenth Master]], and the [[Reborn Master]] is the [[Eighteenth Master]]. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the [[War Master]] is the [[Nineteenth Master]] and the [[Saxon Master]] is the [[Twentieth Master]]. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- [[User:MattTheNerd42|MattTheNerd42]] [[User talk:MattTheNerd42|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


{{quote|It was no version of the Master that the Doctor recognised. A young man in a business suit, beardless, with a mop of boyish hair. His face, what the Doctor could see of it, seemed friendly and plausible. The face of a politician, the kind of man people would find it easy to trust. ‘He could almost be you,’ the Master commented.|Clearly meant to be Simm}}
:::What's your source for the numbering? [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
::::Whether stolen bodies even ''count'' is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In ''[[Mastermind (audio story)|Mastermind]]'' and ''[[Short Trips: The Centenarian]]'' a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.  


{{quote|This was a female version of the Master: still alive, if this ghastly state counted as life. Like the corpse, she also wore a frilled black outfit. Her hair was black, veined in white, combed back from her forehead. Unlike the Doctor’s present companion, her face was beardless. The mask hid most of it. But he recognised something in her cheekbones and brow, a family likeness that was clearly intentional.|Everyone's first intentions will be to claim that this is Missy. However, as the book predates Missy, this can not be confirmed.}}
::::Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of ''[[First Frontier (novel)|First Frontier]]''; the ''[[Dust Breeding (audio story)|Dust Breeding]]'' account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just ''one'' in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]'', which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…


These are the only two direct connections I could find. This, and another to a decaying Master who dies in captivity -- clearly not one we know so far. I'll continue my hunting later. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 02:21, October 3, 2015 (UTC)
::::Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making ''Delgado'' the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


== Norman Stanley ==
:::::And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because [[The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death)]] is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


Would it be fair to say that [[Norman Stanley]] (the "Telephone Mechanic" which installs the telephone which strangles the Doctor) briefly plays the Master in ''Terror of the Autons'' episode three? After the scene in question, the mechanic enters the Autons' bus at about 17:30, and takes off a latex mask, revealing himself as the Master. This appears to be a similar situation to Anthony Ainley playing the Master under heavy make-up and a pseudonym (both in the credits and in-story) and Delgado briefly playing Farrel after the Master puts ''him'' in a mask at the end of episode four of ''Autons''. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 14:41, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would ''still ''be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
: Oh yea, it's plainly obvious that the repairman is the Master. I'm actually shocked that this hasn't been referenced on the site before. I figured the reason we left it off was that we had left off similar cases on the template ([[Paul McGann]] played the Master in the TV movie for a few shots for instance). In my opinion, we need to redesign these templates so that there can be multiple "main" actor variables while still keeping to the custom search tool that no one uses (seriously, anyone ever do that?). We clearly could do it with the "Other Actor(s)" section so I don't see why this isn't possible. I would say that [[Gordon Tipple]], [[Paul McGann]], and [[Norman Stanley]] are the only actors that deserve to go as "other actors." [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:26, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
::But surely every disguise of the Master is actually a separate Time Lord? {{Unsigned-anon|197.88.60.232}}


::: Uhh.... [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:55, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
: Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
: We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
: We don't elect to not use "[[Fourteenth Doctor]]" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


:::: Yeah, I don't know either. But either way, my question can be summed up as "Does Stanley portray the Roger Delgado incarnation in ''Terror of the Autons'' as well as Delgado himself?" Anything involving redesigning infoboxes and the issue of Paul McGann is kind of out of my depth here, and I'm not sure how I feel either way, and I've seen the TV movie. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 15:59, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
::Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


: Yeah, he does. I'm not sure if he should be added to the infobox tho, is the other issue. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 16:24, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
== Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images ==


== Yana ==
Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic]], I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at [[Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images]]. It could easily be applied here as well. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)


Surely a seperate page should be made for the Professor [[Yana]] identity created by the [[Chameleon Arch]]? [[John Smith (Tenth Doctor)|John Smith]] has one after all. --[[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:16, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
== Tabbed gallery ==
I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
: Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


== Yana ==
:: Thanks, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]. Is the absence of a certain [[The Master (The Destination Wars)|Destination Wars Master]] on purpose? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


Surely a seperate page should be made for the Professor [[Yana]] identity created by the [[Chameleon Arch]]? [[John Smith (Tenth Doctor)|John Smith]] has one after all. --[[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] [[User talk:MrThermomanPreacher|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:19, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
: As I just finished telling [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon]], it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{tlx|masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on [[The Doctor]]. But Jack argues that we ''do'' include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


I think it should stay in the same sense we haven't got individual master pages. [[User:DENCH-and-PALMER|DENCH-and-PALMER]] [[User talk:DENCH-and-PALMER|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:24, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.


== Eleventh Doctor Comics ==
I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
:: Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with [[William Hughes]], thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)


The internet appears undecided on whether the version of the Master in Titan's 11th Doctor comics is the Roger Delgado incarnation or a (presumably) post-Macqueen and pre-Jacobi incarnation. I was wondering whether this point had been settled.[[Special:Contributions/109.145.16.227|109.145.16.227]]<sup>[[User talk:109.145.16.227#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:16, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
:: As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but ''is'' one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


The incarnation that has appeared so far has been the Delgado version, however the story has shown that the Master was also present during the "Cyclor event", hinting at a Time War incarnation. I have my theories on what will end up happening in the comic (and who the Master will be revealed as being), but until we have concrete proof in the comic, we can't add anything to the Master article. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 18:31, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
::: I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


: Just to clarify to other readers: the Master featured in ''[[The Judas Goatee (comic story)|The Judas Goatee]]'' is indeed Delgado. We are seeing, in that comic, the repercussions of the Master's previous actions. Meanwhile, the Master seen in the rest of the comic is the Time War Master. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|Talk]]) 16:39, April 22, 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough, [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge''']].


== Premiership ==
I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with [[User:Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon|Jack &#34;BtR&#34; Saxon]], and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.


Do we know how long Harold Saxon served as Prime Minister? It seemed as if he got onto the Valiant pretty quickly after the election.
(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


== Delgado Master ==
:::: @Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (''[[The Dark Path (novel)|The Dark Path]]'' positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section on the Delgado Master be labelled something other than Thirteenth Master now that Big Finish has shown that Beevers was the Thirteenth Master before his accident?


:: We still can't confirm that Beeves wasn't playing Delgado at this point. Besides, what would we call the Delgado Master?[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:37, August 19, 2016 (UTC)
Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in [[The Sound of Drums (TV story)|The Sound of Drums]] flashback, or not? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:::Actually, Beevers is most definitely not playing Delgado. The only reason Delgado is known as the 13th is because of Legacy of the Daleks. To say that Big Finish have secretly recast an incarnation of the Master just because of a novel which they themselves have contradicted many times is a bit reaching. In the scenes on Terserus, Beevers is not acting like Delgado, he's just being his usual Master with a dose of youthful naivety. I say that unless there is anything from Big Finish that actually says that Beevers is Delgado we shouldn't say that Big Finish say that Beevers is Delgado. [[User:TheChampionOfTime|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT">CoT</span>]]  [[User talk:TheChampionOfTime|<span title="Talk to me">?</span> ]] 00:01, August 20, 2016 (UTC)
:: On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.


Just want to point out for new users that no headings are to be changed during this discussion. If it's determined that they need to be changed, only an admin can change them, as this article's headings are dependent on templates. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:36, August 20, 2016 (UTC)
:: (Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:While that may be true for some headings, no template links to the section titled "thirteenth incarnation". Nonetheless, no changes should be made concerning this matter while there is still a discussion going on.  
I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.  


:Other headings in the "appearances" sections are named after the Master's aliases. The two aliases that encapsulate Delgado's master for me are "Emil Keller" and "Victor Magister". According to Mind of Evil, he spent several months going by Keller. According to Who Killed Kennedy, the general public knew him as Magister. Therefore, I would call the heading either '''"Emil Keller" incarnation''' or '''"Victor Magister" incarnation'''. [[User:TheChampionOfTime|<span style="font-family:Old English Text MT">CoT</span>]]   [[User talk:TheChampionOfTime|<span title="Talk to me">?</span> ]] 03:46, August 20, 2016 (UTC)
I also note here that there may even be [[The Master's early life#The Dreyfus Master|a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters]] themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


:: Those alias titles mostly ably because that Master (Tremas/John Smith/Yana/Harold Saxon) used it to define their time, expect Number Tremas, who used it once, but it was his stolen body. Delgado changed aliases like the seasons, so perhaps a title that reflects his appearance like Pratt and Gomez, or one that reflects his time like Roberts and Macqueen.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:53, August 20, 2016 (UTC)
If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on [[The Doctor]]) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


It stands to reason that each incarnation of the Master should have its own page, just like the Doctor does, since there are so many of them. It'll be easier for the readers, myself included, to pick on each given Master, and we also won't have to scroll down that much to get info for Missy.
:It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? [[User:PintlessMan|PintlessMan]] [[User talk:PintlessMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


Doesn't this make sense? Shouldn't this be the way it is supposed to be?{{Unsigned|HighlanderFan83}}
:: No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.  
:Considering that we used to have separate pages and went through a lot of work to merge them into one, we are not splitting them up. There is even an attempt to merge all the Romana pages into one. So on this wiki, we are tending toward one page for each Time Lord, with the Doctor the only exception. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:56, November 25, 2016 (UTC)


Fair enough. However, I have to let you know that it is a huge mistake, in my opinion. This character's history is suchh a detailed mess, it just can't make sense of the discrepancies and inconsistencies coherently.{{Unsigned|HighlanderFan83}}
:: But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at [[The Doctor]] (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and [[Origins (comic story)|has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories]]). And I don't believe we should do ''either'' of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "[[The Doctor's species]]" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very ''existence'' is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the ''page's default thumbnail'' in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
:That mess is exactly why we merged all the pages. It's not always easy to figure out which Master appears in some stories, and we don't know all of his numbered incarnations the way we do the Doctor's. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:12, November 25, 2016 (UTC)


== How come the Master's page isn't set up like the Doctor's? ==
:::I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|📢]] 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Where each incarnation has their own page with one large homepage. [[User:Xx-connor-xX|Xx-connor-xX]] [[User talk:Xx-connor-xX|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:32, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
:[[T:MASTER]] is a good starting point if you want to know why we made this decision. [[Forum:The Master]] was the original discussion on this.{{User:SOTO/sig}} 00:03, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't stop it from being a genuinely bad idea. I spend far too long in this page when really, all I want is to look on a specific incarnation, and that's it.


What political party was Saxon allied with? Was he labour or tory? [[User:Mc1934|Mc1934]] [[User talk:Mc1934|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:07, March 26, 2017 (UTC)
::::On the other hand, of course, we ''could'' place him between Bruce and Preacher. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]] 16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


== Template:Masterpic ==
== Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk  ==


Currently the image listing for [[Template:Masterpic]] appears to have some errors in it. Would it not be more productive to list the Masters in chronological order as dictated by the article '''[[The Master]]'''? There seems to be no reason why Macqueen and Jacobi are out of sequence, nor Pratt, Ainley and Roberts repeated. The listing below removes repeats and includes all Masters regardless of medium (TV, AUDIO, COMIC) as the wiki recognises all officially licensed stories as equal value.
I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all.
Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?


<table style="width:70%">
The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master '''disguised himself as the Meddling Monk'''. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes.
  <tr>
So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.
    <th>Current listing</th>
    <th>Proposed listing</th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Eight-Year-Old</td>
    <td>Eight-Year-Old</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Delgado</td>
    <td>Delgado</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Pratt</td>
    <td>Pratt</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Ainley</td>
    <td>Beevers <small>(crop [[:File:Master-tardis-keeper-of-traken-inside.jpg|image]])</small></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Roberts</td>
    <td>Ainley</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>COMIC: <i>The Glorious Dead</i></td>
    <td>Roberts</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Jacobi</td>
    <td>COMIC: <i>The Glorious Dead</i></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Pratt</td>
    <td>AUDIO: <i>Mastermind</i> <small>(crop [[:File:Mastermind.jpg|image]])</small></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Ainley</td>
    <td>Macqueen</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Macqueen</td>
    <td>Comics "Asian Child" <small>(use [[:File:Titan Comics Kill a God Master Asian Child.jpg|image]])</small></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Roberts</td>
    <td>Jacobi</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Simm</td>
    <td>Simm</td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td>Gomez</td>
    <td>Gomez</td>
  </tr>
</table>


[[User:NickM98|NickM98]] [[User talk:NickM98|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:08, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. {{unsigned-anon|197.87.143.20}}
:Unfortunately any page which uses a template to cycle through several different images really isn't up for debate. This is because there are strict technical requirements for the images in order to make them cycle correctly various desktop browsers, and the solution we use behaves slightly differently on the browsers that FANDOM supports. Moreover, in several places -- on both desktop and mobile -- images are chosen by the software to represent the article. With our multiple-image changer, that image is the first one in the stack. As it is illogical for The Master to be represented by the child version -- who never even had a line, much less a minute's worth of screen time -- he was deliberately removed from the stack. This makes Delgado the representative image for The Master on mobile devices, which is sensible, since he originated the part.
: Oh good, you again.


:Also, your listing of the current images doesn't take into account the point of the slideshow. The way the code is designed, it's meant to be kind of like the current incumbent having a dream about their past. The notion is that the incumbent actor be the most dominant, and different, former actors are cycled in between images of the incumbent. So they're going to be out of order, anyway.
: Well, ''according to one account'', yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in ''The Time Meddler''.) But ''according to other accounts'' it was in fact a distinct guy in ''Time Meddler''. There are ''conflicting accounts'', and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)


:This is easiest to illustrate with {{tl|docpic}}, because the Doctor has easily-understood numbers for incarnations.  In Safari, at least, the order goes something like this: 12 1 12 2 1 12 3 1 12 4 1 12 5 4 12 6 5 12 4 7 6 5 1 12 8 7 12 6 8 War 8 12 8 9 War 12 8 10 9 12 8 11 10 12 9 11 10 12 10 11 12 11 ... and then it continues repeating from 8 through 12 or a while, but gives overwhelming precedence to 10-12.
== "Quote marks" ==


:In other words, the effect is a halting progression, at best -- which gradually becomes more superimposition as the thing continues.  {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 17:51: Mon 18 Sep 2017</span>
We finally ditched the quote marks from [[The Doctor|"The Doctor"]], post-fork, should we do the same here? × [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] [[User talk:Fractal|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 
: Yes. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
::In fully understand the progressive countdown-style order in which the code forces the images to appear, I am not suggesting that this be changed.
 
::Using {{tl|docpic}} as an example, in the list found on the edit page, each face is listed '''in chronological order''' (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) with no unnecessary repeated images or mixed-up list order. '''This is all I am proposing for {{tl|masterpic}}, a simple re-ordering of the existing list on the edit page''' as suggested above so that during the countdown montage of the final template, the order (relative to how the template shows each image) is correct. [[User:NickM98|NickM98]] [[User talk:NickM98|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:16, January 19, 2018 (UTC)
 
== Missy ==
 
I recently edited Missy's abilities with her actions in dodging a Dalek's laser and knocking down the Master and the Doctor in "The Doctor Falls when I saw that John Simm's Master was labelled a "decent brawler" after attacking the Twelfth Doctor. Out of interest, why was this changed? [[User:Himelover567|Himelover567]] [[User talk:Himelover567|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:57, August 25, 2017 (UTC)
 
== Abominable Showmen. That shouldn't be there. ==
 
Guys come on. ''Abominable Showmen'' is clearly drawn as a fun side-story, not to be taken seriously. It's obviously non-canon. Same for ''Doctor Twelfth''.
Don't mix it up with the main story, it's just confusing.
Either include it in a different section or don't include it at all.{{Unsigned|David Kibasennin}}
:I strongly suggest you read the message left for you by [[User:Amorkuz]] on your talk page at [[User talk:David Kibasennin]]. You are new to this wiki and therefore you don't yet understand how we define what stories we count. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:23, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
 
:: Note for everyone's attention. The validity of Titan Back-ups, including ''[[The Abominable Showmen (comic story)|The Abominable Showmen]]'', was decided by the community at [[Thread:177099]]. The validity of the ''[[Dr. Men (series)|Dr. Men]]'' books, including ''[[Dr. Twelfth (novel)|Dr. Twelfth]]'', was decided by the community at [[Thread:215070]]. Anyone interested in how validity is decided on the wiki is welcome to peruse the debates (the former is more extensive). However, based on these decisions, please refrain from removing information originating from these stories. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:53, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
 
== Recent edits ==
One editor voiced their concerns regarding recent changes to the page, specifically requesting the in-universe information based on which things have been moved around. I additionally point out that these changes removed at least two important pieces of information: one regarding the duration of the Master's stay at a certain place, and the other regarding the Master being given a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords. The latter is a bit of a biggy. So its removal cannot stand. The other editor requested the changes to be discussed here on the talk page first. I would appreciate it if the request is obliged. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:52, January 14, 2018 (UTC)
:the master's execution as seen in the flashback in th emovie happens before [[Lungbarrow (novel)]]. in lungbarrow the doctor is given his mission to get the master's remains leading into the movie. but [[Master (audio story)]] is set after the new adventures (death from the VNAs appears, chris,roz and bernice are referenced etc) yet is also set before the movie. which means that the doctor didn't complete his mission because otherwise the movie would have happened. and he wouldn't be the seventh doctor at all anymore. it shows that the doctor made the deal with death ten years ago to give the master a human life.  so in a way master creates a ‘reprieve’ for both the doctor and the master, though in the end the doctor must get back on course with his mission of bringing the master's remains to galiifrey so that the movie can happen
:even though [[Mastermind (audio story)]] and [[Eyes of the Master (audio story)]] are both made by big finish they contradict each other. in eyes of the master the master says the last time he encountered the doctor was in the movie. and they both know about the ‘predicament’ he was in which means it was him getting stuck in the eye of harmony.
:in [[The Sound of Drums]] the master says that the time lords resurrected him to fight in the time war and in eyes of the master the time lords have resurrected him to fight the daleks but even he knows that they're trying to prepare him for something bigger. it's obvious that big finish was trying to link to the sound of drums when they made eyes ofthe master. the only other way it could be is if somehow offscreen he dies AGAIN before the time war and the time lords resurrect him AGAIN. seems to me that's really really unlikely and even the page for eotm mentions sound of drums under continuinty
:i put the thing about the hatchling project clones from [[Interference - Book One (novel)]] before eyes of the master because theyre bothe with the 8th doctor and both are about the master being under the control of the time lords but really it could go anywhere if someone has a better idea as long as it goes somewhere intsead of being deleted
:also i fixed some language issues like ‘due to the Time Lords' belief that he would be the perfect warrior due to’ and ‘given a new lease of life’ (which is nicely poetic but not actually specific and could just mean ‘the time lords showed the master that life was really worth living which made him a happier person’) and those keep getting reverted[[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
:: Thank you for engaging in a discussion, which is [[Tardis:Edit wars are good for absolutely nothing|much preferred over edit reversal]]. I will let this discussion run its course until a mutually agreeable solution is found. I would like to point out just two things. It would be easier for us to understand your findings if proper grammar (capital letters at the beginning of sentences, apostrophes etc.) is used also on the talk page. Your fellow editors deserve the same courtesy as shown towards readers of the page. Secondly, "seems to me that's really really unlikely" is not an argument accepted on this wiki. [[Doctor Who universe]] is, unfortunately for those of us who care about continuity, significantly discontinuous. There are multiple contradicting accounts, alternative explanations, etc. of same events. Just the fact that you cannot reconcile the text (direct quote) of one story with the text of another story, does not mean one of them gets rejected. This is one of the reasons why timelines in general have been [[Forum:Timeline pages|banned from the main namespace]] and relegated to a [[Theory:Timey-wimey detector|special sandbox]]. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:29, January 14, 2018 (UTC)
:::Sorry about the grammar. I know about contradictions and all. That’s why i’m trying to get how eyes of the master contradicts mastermind etc in there instead of skipping over it to make it seem like it doesn’t contradict. What i mean about it being unlikely is not just that if doctor who was real it would be unlikely for the same thing to happen twice. But that it doesn’t make any sense for the big finish writers who have definitely seen the new series to write something about the master that matches what the new series says exactly  without it being the same event.[[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
The Doctor and the Master are both time travelers, and it has been proved by the likes of ''Doorway to Hell'' and ''Vampire of the Mind'' for them to meet out of sequence, not until the Doctor and [[River Song]]. So ''Master'' and ''Lungburrow'' don't need to flow into each other. I have listen to ''Eyes of the Master'' again, and find no such comment, the closet being that the Master remembers being in [[San Francisco]]. The predicament could also easily be the state he was left in at the end of ''Mastermind''. And it is not clarified if he was indeed resurrect into [[Alex Macqueen]]; he only says he was "rescued".[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:49, January 14, 2018 (UTC)
 
::::: Actually i think the word is 'plucked.' There is no 'predicament' at the end of [[Mastermind (audio story)]]. Rather, the master is free and in possession of his tardis, and importantly the doctor knows nothing about his current whereabouts anyway. The doctor and the master are both time travellers, but more importantly they're both time ''lords''. Which means that it's not normal for them to meet out of order. In [[Doorway to Hell (comic story)]] the master actually ASSUMES that the 12th doctor is the newly-regenerated 4th. Meeting out of order doesn't just happen randomly. If it did then the master also would have no way of knowing whether the 'predicament' was something the doctor was even aware of yet. I can't really double check eotm for whether he really does say that san francisco was specifically the last meeting but if not then it makes more sense. Still doesn't fit with mastermind of course but it would fit the DWM comic version. I know eotm doesn't say the word "resurrected" specifically. Using the exact same language as the sound of drums would be trite. However: the original series showed the master running out of regenerations. In the sound of drums he has a new regeneration cycle and says that it was given to him by the time lords after the original series so that he could fight the daleks in the time war. In eyes of the master (written by people who watch and generally try to follow the new series) he has a new regeneration cycle and says that it was given to him by the time lords so that he could fight the daleks, and that they are preparing him for [[Last Great Time War|something bigger]]. It is obviously a reference. [[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
Many Time Lords meet out of sync with the Doctor, take [[the Monk]] and [[the Rani]] for example. And even though ''Mastermind'' ends with him free, he is still stuck in a dying body. And there is no evidence to suggest that ''Eyes of the Master'' is referencing ''The Sound of Drums''; its pure speculation to say that at this stage.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:27, January 15, 2018 (UTC)
 
:You're just repeating the same things that i have already addressed. I have already demonstrated that barring exceptional circumstances, the master and doctor meet in order. To call the connection between eyes of the master and the sound of drums "pure speculation" is patently false when '''i have already shown that the two accounts match exactly and the former cannot have been written without knowledge of the latter.''' My edit said,
 
::...a "predicament"...which he claimed the Time Lords had rescued him from. The Master believed that the Time Lords were "softening [him] up for something." ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Eyes of the Master (audio story)|Eyes of the Master]]'') The Master would later claim that they had only resurrected him because he would be a perfect warrior for a Time War. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Sound of Drums (TV story)|The Sound of Drums]]'')
 
:There is absolutely no speculation there. It relates precisely what the stories say, in the most logical order based on both what the writers probably intended AND the most obvious understanding of what the stories mean. The only other way to write the article without making it clunky and nonsensical would be to say that 'if the Time Lords really were softening him up for something, we have no idea what' and to ''speculate'' that 'the Master must have run out of regenerations a ''second'' time, only to be granted a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords ''once again'', who wanted him to fight the Daleks for them ''again''. This would be the equivalent of making a page called [[Molly (The Night of the Doctor)]] because it's "speculation" to say that the Molly mentioned in that story is the same Molly as in Dark Eyes, and not some other companion who coincidentally shares the name. [[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
I am not repeating myself, I am mearly countering something you said: I say time travelers can meet in the wrong order, you say Time Lords cant, I bring up evidence to the contrary.
 
You're new here, arn't you? In that case, let me inform you of something I had to learn thd hard way: this wiki is very specific when it comes to wording. In fact, if memory serves, when ''Dark Eyes 2'' came out, the ressurection was placed just above Macqueen, but when ''Dark Eyes 3'' went into further detail about Macqueen's backstory, it was moved back to the Time War subsection due to the word choise of "rescued from a predicament" went against "Time Lord ressurection". Maybe if you should track down thd one who edited the pagd that day and get there 2 cents in this?[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:26, January 15, 2018 (UTC)
 
:So you're just defending the current state of the page on the grounds that whoever made it that way must've had a good reason? It was [http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Master?diff=prev&oldid=2047111 this edit here]. The reasoning that gives is that the previous version of the page implied that the ''Macqueen'' Master was actually the incarnation who fought in the war. Which was a legitimate issue with the page, and as we know now, it was the child Master and the Jacobi Master who fought in the war. In fact, later down the page Macqueen's Master is erroneously conflated with the Master who fought in the Time War some more. But my edit didn't say that Macqueen actually fought in the war. It just said that it was the reason the Master was resurrected (or rather, that the Master himself ''claims'' that).[[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
:: You've kind'a answered your own question there; we do not, at this stage, know if Macqueen was involved with the war, just that he is being "softened up" with the Eminence before he went rogue and started doing his own thing. Hence why the wiki only covers the "rescued from a predicament" part on his section and the "resurrected by the Time Lords" bit in the Time War section; because we simply don't have undeniable confirmation that it was Macqueen that was resurrected for the war, we only know that he was rescued to fight the Daleks. ''The Sound of Drums'' explicitly states that was resurrected for the war, hence why it is placed in that subsection, while ''Eyes of the Master'' is placed separate due to it lacking concrete proof the Master is talking about the Time War. Since it took the 50th anniversary for the Doctor's involvement in the war to be clarified, perhaps we'll find out in 2021, but until then to say which Master it was (Macqueen, Child, Jacobi) that was resurrected.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:34, January 15, 2018 (UTC)
 
:::I'm not suggesting that Macqueen was involved in the war. Only that he was resurrected for the ''purpose'' of what would become the Time War. The fact that he goes rogue in the intervening time is irrelevant. Of course he only works towards his own ends, not those of his supposed backers. He's the Master. Even during the Time War itself, [[Only the Good (audio anthology)|that's precisely what he does]], so you can't use that as any kind of evidence. Eyes of the Master has already confirmed that Macqueen was the one resurrected, and the question of which Master/Masters was/were involved in the war itself is completely separate. This is the only sensible reading of the story, and is assumed by other pages on this wiki like [[Eyes of the Master (audio story)]] and [[Nevermore (audio story)]]. The fact that this page ever said anything different is only an editing artefact from fixing the incorrect information that Macqueen was the one who actually ''fought'' in the war. [[User:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone]] [[User talk:HomelessForsakenBetrayed&#38;Alone|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]]
 
== James Dreyfus as the Master ==
Is there any reason why we’re counting him as the first incarnation? I mean, I know Big Finish kind of marketed him as the first Master, but in a recent Vortex, where a listener asked if Dreyfus was meant to be the First Master and Nick Briggs states that he doesn’t actually know, makes me think should we separate his incarnation from the information about the Sound of Drums Master? And if we were, we could simple list him as the “Inventor” incarnation, like Delgado is listed as “Unit Enemy.” [[User:Ben Moore512|Ben Moore512]] [[User talk:Ben Moore512|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:42, August 2, 2018 (UTC)
 
:Interesting and fair point: There's no in-universe source for Dreyfus being the first Master. In the absence of additional evidence, I'd be in favor of this change. – [[User:NateBumber|N8]] [[User_talk:NateBumber|☎]] 21:56, August 2, 2018 (UTC)
 
:: Please, implement this change. It is against the validity rules to accept anything but non-speculative in-universe info. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:30, October 1, 2018 (UTC)
 
== Incarnation's number ==
 
In ''[[Girl Power! (short story)|Girl Power!]]'' it is reaveled that the Master died 18 times before becoming Missy, but that doesn't mean he had 19 incarnations so far as treated in his page.
 
In the tv Movie it is said that the Master was executed in his final incarnation (presumably his 13th one). But he came back from the dead as a Deathworm morphant he swalload in his 13th incarnation, as described in ''[[The Eight Doctors (novel)|The Eight Doctors]]''. So, he didn't regenerate! He just kept stealing bodies to survive. And that would mean that Eric Roberts' Master still is the 13th Master! This is reinforced by the Master in ''[[Mastermind (audio story)|Mastermind]]'' being played by his 13th incarnation actor: Geoffrey Beavers.
 
That being said, shouldn't this the correct incarnation's number?
 
* Bald Incarnation: 14th
* Child Incarnation: 15th
* YANA/War Master: 16th
* Harold Saxon: 17th
* Missy: 18th
 
[[User:Wesley701|Wesley701]] [[User talk:Wesley701|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:59, September 6, 2018 (UTC)
 
: Before Roberts’ Master, there is a prose only incarnation, the Tzun Master. The Master had been infected with the Tzun and was shot by Ace, causing him to regenerate because the Tzun gave him that ability. This is the 14th Master. Eventually, the body fails and the Master goes back to his Trakenite body leading to Dust Breeding, Master, Mastermind and the TV Movie. [[User:Ben Moore512|Ben Moore512]] [[User talk:Ben Moore512|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:44, September 6, 2018 (UTC)
 
== Images ==
 
I don't know what is going on with this page, but there were over '''one hundred''' images (yes you read that right). It's a massive understatement to say that's too many for one article. We generally want '''at most''' one image per section, but that doesn't mean "add an image to every section". We don't allow columns of images, or images all pasted on the same side of the article. These kinds of things happen when there are too many images. Also keep in mind that images cause page-load times to increase.
 
I've removed all but one of the images from this page (I kept the first image, of the Master as a child). Some of the images I removed can be judiciously re-added, but there really shouldn't be more than 10-20 for the whole page. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:37, November 14, 2018 (UTC)
 
== Restructure proposal: Parent Tab Template ==
 
Hi, i hope i am not repeating a previous proposal but couldn't we use a "Parent Tab Template" at the top as is used on some wikis with lengthy article (e.g. the main characters from the ''One Piece'' like [https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Monkey_D._Luffy there]).
 
The template containing the same subsections as <nowiki>{{Template:Master stories}}</nowiki> and covering the content of the Master stories in the same way:
*Earliest
*Dreyfus
*Delgado
*Decayed
*Ainley
*VNA
*Roberts
*Macqueen
*Titan
*Jacobi
*Simm
*Gomez
*Incarnation unclear
[[User:RingoRoadagain|RingoRoadagain]] [[User talk:RingoRoadagain|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:01, October 10, 2019 (UTC)
:Don't forget Tipple! But that aside, sounds like a good idea to me. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:07, October 10, 2019 (UTC)
:I think should have put a link to the template so here is the [[https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Master_stories?oldid=2793218 current]] version. It currently puts Tipple under "Incarnation unclear" fyi.[[User:RingoRoadagain|RingoRoadagain]] [[User talk:RingoRoadagain|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:15, October 10, 2019 (UTC)
 
: I’ve been experimenting with this ideas in my sandbox: [[User:BananaClownMan/Sandbox/The Master (Deathworm Morphant)]], if you want to see.
:: BananaClownMan: since he existed prior to merging with the Morphant, I would, if I were you, limit the "The Master (Deathworm Morphant)" page to the Eric Roberts body onwards, but have the Gordon Tipple Master who hatched the original scheme and got executed by the Daleks  as a different page. That page could simply be located at [[Old Master]], which is what he's credited at in the TV Movie, as I recall. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:42, October 10, 2019 (UTC)
::: Oh it is, I just covered pre-“regeneration “ stuff. I got pages for each Master on a template.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:45, October 10, 2019 (UTC)
 
==Time to make a page for each incarnation, this page is getting overly big==
This page obnoxiously big and with no reason. Don't you think it is about time to separate the master into incarnations pages just like the Doctor and Romana? Since PROSE: Girl Power!, we already know the number of each incarnation:
1- William Hughes/ James Dreyfus.
2 to 11- Unknown.
12- Assumed to be Roger Delgado.
13- Peter Pratt/ Geoffrey Beevers/ Anthony Ainley/ Gordon Tipple.
A period with a lot of body stealing- Eric Roberts and others.
15- Alex Macqueen.
16- Child master from the comics.
17- Derek Jacobi.
18- John Simm.
19- Michelle Gomez.
20- Sacha Dhawan.
The only Master here that we are not 100% sure is Delgado. It would help us to organize it better. What do you think? [[User:DenisLuiz|DenisLuiz]] [[User talk:DenisLuiz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:19, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
 
I think the wiki did that before, but since merged them back into one. [[User:Alkonium|Alkonium]] [[User talk:Alkonium|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:24, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
:Yeah, ''personally'' I'd support resplitting (though not in the way suggested by DenisLuiz, we are way less sure about numbering than you think), but it'd need a forum thread at least, I think. A specific decision was made, after long and arduous discussion, to merge all the Master pages. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:28, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
 
:Before we get head over heels about this, we should consult the archives for prior discussions on this issue first. Also, perhaps someone could link us to any previous forum threads regarding merging/splitting the Master pages. Editors are best knowing why the page has been merged for so long before we go opening discussing and end up repeating already visited ground, therefore leading us back here and leaving our efforts mute and fruitless. [[User:Snivystorm|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#1E90FF">''Snivy''</font></font>]]<font face="Arial"><font color="dodgerblue">  </font> [[User talk:Snivystorm|<small style="border-style: initial; border-color: initial; "><font face="Cambria"><font color="Grey">✦ ''The coolest Pokemon ever'' ✦</font></font></small>]]</font> 22:32, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
::Isn't this what we right now are largely trying to get our heads around on [[Thread:181963]]? --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:47, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
:::Not really. Thread:181963 <small>(…hey, did you ever notice it has 1963 in its number, that thread?)</small> did involve us digging up data about which Master incarnation is which, but per the OP it's about how to fix up the [[:Template:Master_stories]] template. t has no authority to resplit the page, even if it'll be an interesting point of reference if and when we ''do''. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:52, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
<edit conflict>
:::No, that thread is about the template, not about splitting up the page into several. There is a much easier solution than undoing the major effort from a few years ago to combine the incarnations into one page: cut the information on the page. Character pages are, and have always been, about the character; they are '''not''' plot summaries. Any story needs '''no more than two or three sentences''' on the character page; if a reader wants to know more, they can click on the cited story (that's how wikis are supposed to work - you go from one page to another to get the information you want). There will be no splitting of the page as long as this easier solution exists. Of course it's no fun to clean a page, but that's not a reason to split the page. I will later post all the previous discussions that [[User:Snivystorm]] mentioned. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:58, January 5, 2020 (UTC)
: Where exactly in policy does it say that about the "no more than two or three sentences" thing? It's always seemed to me that the point of character pages and Biography section was precisely to have the unified biography, gathering all the sources, in one place, without having to read through massive plot summaries in which the character under question may only be very secondarily featured. And especially for longer stories, it's perfectly possible for major biographical information about a character to not be especially plot-relevant. (i.e. a character momentarily reminiscing about their childhood)
 
: And anyway, there are other reasons than the sheer length of the unified [[The Master]] page to want to split it. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:53, January 6, 2020 (UTC)
 
: I think that is not happening at all. Look at the spymaster section. Two episodes and four paragraphs. It is hard to read this page, everything is so messy, it does need a huge trim that I only think is achievable via splitting.[[User:DenisLuiz|DenisLuiz]] [[User talk:DenisLuiz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:43, January 6, 2020 (UTC)
 
== The Spy Master ==
Right now, the page pretty much says the Master seen in ''[[Spyfall (TV story)|Spyfall]]'' regenerated from Missy. It would ''seem'' this is the case with the destruction of Gallifrey, but I don't believe the identity of Dhawan's Master in relation to other incarnations has been specified yet. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:57, January 6, 2020 (UTC)
:I think it has. It's complicated, but I think it has. --[[User:Danniesen|DCLM]] [[User talk:Danniesen|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:48, January 6, 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:27, 14 March 2024

Archive.png
 Archives: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8

How to refer to each incarnation of the Master[[edit source]]

Well, I think some of us were hoping it'd be simpler, but the fact that Talk:The Master (The TV Movie) discussion and Talk:The Master (The Keeper of Traken) are going on at the same time with seemingly different ideas made me think we should just discuss this. This is not necessarily meant to be a discussion to determine a name or page title for each Master; those should still happen on their talk page. This is just a discussion on having consistency between them.

This long comment started as something I was going to write for Talk:The Master (The TV Movie), with me saying I think it should either be both Tremas Master and Bruce Master, or both The Master (The TV Movie) and The Master (The Keeper of Traken), for consistency. …But then in the latter case, arguably some of the others should also use disambiguation terms. I personally think that for the "main" Masters (i.e. those not ambiguous or from another reality) should either all use descriptions for page titles, with the possible exception of The Master (Terror of the Autons) (the reason for which is currently discussed on his talk page and should remain there), or all use disambiguation terms, with the exceptions of Decayed Master, War Master, Missy and the Lumiat. Having any other sort of mixed arrangement would just be confusing. Please note I am not saying the wiki must subscribe to the above dichotomy, just that I think it needs to be discussed. But there's another problem:

Initially I too subscribed to the story dab pattern, for neutrality. But the problem is, the incarnations still need a name to be referred to with in articles to specify them. We can't say "The Doctor met the Master (Dominion)." in an article. It'd have to be something like "The Doctor met the Reborn Master." This means even if they're not page titles, descriptive names are necessary anyway. There are a few proposed names that work well enough with their story titles, like "Traken Master" (from The Keeper of Traken) or "Spy Master" (from Spyfall). But for most of them, a different name is needed to maintain an in-universe perspective, and because the text of the wiki will be using these names to identify the incarnations, it makes sense to me to have them be the page names anyhow, regardless of what they actually are. I am not 100% against using names on pages and disambiguation terms for (most) titles, which is essentially the status quo, but I think the page title should reflect how the character is almost always referred to on the wiki…

Last note, this is a bit pedantic, but I think it makes a difference: I think descriptive names which are derived from a name themselves should use quotes— basically, "Tremas" Master instead of Tremas Master, "Bruce" Master instead of Bruce Master, and "Saxon" Master instead of Saxon Master. This not only reads better to me, for example alleviating concerns that "Bruce Master" sounds like, and probably is, some guy's name, but also better conveys the reasons those names are being used. Currently quotes are variably used for all descriptive names (particularly with coverage of Masterful you might see something like "the 'Young' Master"), but I think that's too difficult to read and that is the best way to use them. Chubby Potato ☎ 05:02, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

As previously mentioned at Talk:Fugitive Doctor, on no account should we use quotes for the actual page names (e.g. it is and will remain Decayed Master, not "Decayed" Master). This interferes with searchability and is ungainly besides. Big Finish's own box set titles don't say The "War" Master, either; nor do the Masterful credits from which we derive the proposed Saxon Master, Reborn Master or Tremas Master renames use such quotation marks.
This point aside, my intuition thus far is that we use quotation marks when pipe-linking dabbed The Master (Something) pages for clarity — precisely to emphasise that something is a nickname which isn't really that page's proper title. For example, the "UNIT era" Master. This is informal practice and that discussion would be in a position to reform it, though, myself, I think it's intuitive enough. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Scrooge, you're drawing an equivalence between quite unlike things. Of course we don't use "Fugitive" Doctor or "Decayed" Master, since those names are straightforwardly descriptive of each character in their entirety. But there is a straightforward difference between those names and names which are based on identities used only temporarily by the characters. "Missy" is not an alias in the same way that "Harold Saxon" is.
I very much like Chubby's suggestion. This is what it would take for me to get on board with some otherwise-repulsive suggestions: it makes "Bruce Master" sound less like the name of my next-door neighbor, and it suitably contextualizes the conjectural leap we're making in incarnation naming. In particular, I disagree with the idea that this would interfere with searchability in any way. Quote marks work fine in the search bar, and now that Fandom has made search work better with redirects, typing the same name without quotes will return the same result in a transparent fashion. Neither search nor precedent is an argument against this proposal. – n8 (☎) 14:47, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of the quotation marks. Whilst I can understand why people might want to use them for Tremas, Saxon and Bruce, I'm 100% against using them for the Reborn Master; "reborn" is an adjective, just like "decayed", so I don't see why it would be treated any differently. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 20:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
No one has suggested using them for the Reborn Master. I would also be opposed to such a thing. – n8 (☎) 21:16, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I would choose Bruce Master over "Bruce" Master, Saxon Master over "Saxon" Master, Tremas Master over "Tremas" Master, Keller Master over "Keller" Master, etc. Aesthetics aside, the key problem here, which I'm surprised people are overlooking, is that placing quotation marks around part of a name does not actually communicate "this name is unofficial" in any clear or intuitive way. They could just as easily be read as some sort of quotation from some unspecified in-universe or out-of-universe source, or as in-universe nicknames (since quotation marks commonly signify a nickname when used for some but not all component words in a name; for example Punished "Venom" Snake from Metal Gear). With or without them, the wiki would still be making the same arbitrary call to employ the alias / host's name as an adjective when it was never used as such officially. That's OK by me - there's some objective, factual basis to describing Roberts's character "the Bruce Master", Simm's "the Saxon Master", etc - but if we're doing it, we should commit to doing it properly, in a way that gives the reader an uncluttered, consistent experience. Quotation marks are just confusing and distracting in this context. If a name is deemed so dodgy that it requires quotation marks, then we should just continue to disambiguate by debut appearance. PintlessMan ☎ 21:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

My vote would go to: The "Bruce" Master, The "Tremas" Master and The "Saxon" Master - with quotation marks as shown. To me, this indicates they are The Master but that there are sub-names to differentiate and distinguish them. Conversely, I wouldn't use quotation marks for The War Master, as there are countless examples of that name being used widely across various releases. FractalDoctor ☎ 00:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I can’t believe I forgot to comment on this earlier. I am in support of “Bruce” Master and its ilk (with obvious exceptions for the War Master and the Decayed Master). While I personally find the premise of quotation marks in the link name to be aesthetically unappealing, it goes a long way in assuaging the concerns of those more skeptical about these sort of names. Likewise, it is how they’ve historically been used in-line. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 13:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
I would very much like to throw my two cents into this conversation. I think that whenever possible, we should note what number regeneration each Master is, much like the Doctor or the General. We obviously don't know for all of them, but we do know the numbers for a few. The Decayed Master is the Thirteenth Master, the Tremas Master is the Fourteenth Master, the First Frontier Master is the Fifteenth Master, the Bruce Master is the Sixteenth Master, the Preacher Master is the Seventeenth Master, and the Reborn Master is the Eighteenth Master. If we wanted to guess (even if we're not absolutely certain) we can even assume that the War Master is the Nineteenth Master and the Saxon Master is the Twentieth Master. I just think it makes things more orderly on here, which is something we could definitely use given the convoluted history of this character. -- MattTheNerd42 ☎ 17:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
What's your source for the numbering? Aquanafrahudy 📢 17:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Whether stolen bodies even count is significantly controversial, but the problem is that if they do, then (depending on accounts) no numbering can be relied upon. In Mastermind and Short Trips: The Centenarian a post-TVM Beevers Master steals a number of bodies for varying periods of time, in just the same way he stole Roberts's. If we counted them all, then Macqueen might be, like, the Thirty-First.
Moreover, BF only inconsistently acknowledge the events of First Frontier; the Dust Breeding account bypasses it entirely, claiming that Ainley was reverted directly to Beevers. (This implies that Tipple in the TVM was a stolen body he acquired at some point — but we cannot assume that there was just one in that gap, so it doesn't necessarily "make up" the numbers with a different-but-equivalent "Fifteenth Master"!) Then, of course, there's the accounts where it's Ainley who's placed on trial, like The Eight Doctors, which would make your count come up one short, making Roberts the Fifteenth…
Also, some accounts claim that the Decayed Master was just a decayed version of Delgado, making Delgado the Thirteenth Master as well. Covering them on the same page is obviously not desirable, but we can't just act as though Beevers was the only possible Thirteenth candidate. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
And the Preacher Master can't be the Seventeenth Master, because The Master (The Curse of Fatal Death) is. Well, he could be an alternate incarnation, but it's clearly not so straightforward as it seems. Aquanafrahudy 📢 18:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's really possible to assign numbers. The waters are too murky. At this point, even if Sacha Dhawan showed up again on screen and proclaimed "I am the Xth Master" it would still be arguable. Also, even if we did have one or two numbers, nobody ever refers to them as such - nobody says "I loved the Twelfth Master" in the same way we might say "I loved the Twelfth Doctor" for example — Fractal Doctor @ 21:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure I completely agree there. If a new Master was introduced as "[Numeral] Master", we don't have the right to reject that name even if it doesn't sit well with other sources that depict more or less incarnations of the Master up until that point.
We shouldn't make up incarnation numbers, but if one ever officially exists, we should use it. (Maybe as "according to one account".)
We don't elect to not use "Fourteenth Doctor" even though he is technically the sixteenth (inc. War Doctor and the VanityTen) or perhaps the the thirty-third (inc. Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, "Morbius" Doctors). 21:16, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Fair points. I did say it would be debatable though, not that we should dismiss it immediately out of hand. In such an instance, I think "according to one account" would work. In any case, I doubt this would ever happen, unless it's done jokingly (similar to Smith's Doctor telling Clyde he could regenerate 507 times). — Fractal Doctor @ 21:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images[[edit source]]

Although tabs haven't yet been implemented here yet, following the discussion at Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/Replacing docpic, I have a potential way to let us have the tabs listed chronologically but with the most recent incarnation selected by default which I have presented at Talk:The Doctor#Defaulting to the most recent incarnation with the tabbed infobox images. It could easily be applied here as well. Bongo50 ☎ 22:06, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Tabbed gallery[[edit source]]

I note this page still needs a tabbed gallery. The Doctor page works well starting from the first known incarnation, so maybe the Master should follow suit (except with "A", "B", "C", etc.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 11:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. Done, though as stated in my thread closure, the option of switching out this or that image is of course available. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:25, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, Scrooge MacDuck. Is the absence of a certain Destination Wars Master on purpose? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:00, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
As I just finished telling User:Jack "BtR" Saxon, it's "on purpose" in the sense that I was sticking with his absence from {{masterpic}} and with the basic precedent of not including the "according to one account" pre-Delgado incarnations established by the prior decision against including Brayshaw on the template. Also, aside from his controversial existence, it stands to reason that we don't want a somewhat "random" incarnation like Dreyfus to be the perennial default thumbnail instead of Delgado. All of this is in line with Jo Martin & friends not being represented on The Doctor. But Jack argues that we do include the also-controversial John Hurt at The Doctor, so perhaps we could consider the place of the pre-Delgado Masters on this one. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

This might be too outlandish an idea but just a thought I had, that could solve that (here and on other pages) - would it be possible to have a secondary tabbed gallery maybe further down the page, containing miscellaneous/somewhat ambiguous incarnations. I'm guessing it would have some pushback, and could be viewed as confusing, but it's just a suggestion.

I do think this page should begin with Delgado because of the reasons you stated. Worth noting that we do include Hurt in the tabbed Doctor gallery, and we include the Lumiat in this one (as well as others). The only difference with Dreyfus is that he's pre-Delgado and so instead of being mid-gallery, he'd be eternally at the beginning/the default starting image, and I completely understand why a lot of people wouldn't want this. (I wouldn't want this either, but is there an alternative, other than just leaving him out?) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:09, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, as I said, the alternative would be to start with William Hughes, thus sandwiching him away. But I would find it hard to justify including these two and not other alleged pre-Delgado Masters e.g. the War Chief, and that might get very controversial very quickly (I would be willing to bite the bullet of including Peter Butterworth, but I don't think many people would! This is just what we have the "no controversial information in infoboxes" rule of thumb for.)
As regards a more thorough gallery of incarnations, this sounds like a very good use of the proposed usage of galleries on in-universe page, which is currently against policy but is one of the proposals currently rising through the Temp Forums propositions table. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:12, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't think the likes of the Monk and the War Chief are comparable to the likes of Parker and Dreyfus. With the Monk and the War Chief, there are conflicting accounts on whether or not they are the Master. There's no such confusion with Parker and Dreyfus. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, Scrooge.

I'm probably opening a huge can of worms (and maybe not in the best suited place) by asking about the War Chief and what the evidence is for and against him being an incarnation of the Master, but I think it's worth noting that Dreyfus' incarnation was invented as, and specifically designed to be an earlier incarnation of the Master, and I think there's a debate about that warranting inclusion. I've just had a look at your back-and-forth with Jack "BtR" Saxon, and both of you raise good points. I think it's a debate to be had though at some stage, and good note about the upcoming galleries discussion. That could solve some issues down the line.

(I wrote this before seeing Jack's response just now. I'm sitting on the fence and viewing both sides, but ultimately I'm siding with Jack's reasoning here, if I'm honest.) Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:17, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jack, they're not exactly the same situation, sure, but there are certainly accounts by which lights no such persons as Parker or Dreyfus's Masters could have existed (The Dark Path positing that Koschei didn't call himself "the Master" yet by the time he left Gallifrey is the obvious one). Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Tangential question: is Parker meant to be the same incarnation as the 'child' we saw in The Sound of Drums flashback, or not? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

On the whole I'm less concerned about specific cases than about what a giant can of worms pre-Delgado Masters are, such that starting the infobox at Delgado just seems like the cutoff point that will cause the fewest headaches. It's a line in the sand, not a natural boundary, but it's a common-sense sort of line in the sand that readers will easily grok as saying "we're starting with Delgado for IRL reasons/sanity" rather than a judgment-call statement of "such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters count more than such-and-such pre-Delgado Masters". A full gallery elsewhere on the page, if the Temp Forums pass that reform, would then sound like quite an attractive proposal to supplement it.
(Re: Parker/Hughes… that's another controversial one. Per recent BTS quotes, it seems that yes, but that's ambiguous in the stories themselves, particularly as they have some conspicuous physical differences e.g. eye colour. So that's another area of possible contention.) Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 14:19, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not gunna die on this hill, and I'd be happy to wait until the Temp Forum discussion happens regarding a potential alternative before continuing this debate.

I also note here that there may even be a hint of Big Finish muddying the waters themselves anyway, or subtly trying to retcon a few things in light of IRL events surrounding Dreyfus and his positioning anyway? Fractal Doctor ☎ 14:26, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

If the preacher (who appears in half as many stories as Dreyfus) and the Asian child (who is apparently not even intended to be a mainline Master) are included, there's no justification for excluding Dreyfus. Including pre-Delgado incarnations is no more "opening a can of worms" than including post-Delgado ones. I think we should either stick with major TV incarnations (as on The Doctor) or include the lot, not this weird middle ground. PintlessMan ☎ 16:32, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

It has been nearly half a year with no further discussion. Again, given the inclusion of the Preacher and the Child, there is no excuse for excluding the Inventor, an actual mainline Master who is named "The Master", appears as the main Master in multiple stories, and is explicitly positioned prior to Delgado. Can we please get this resolved now? PintlessMan ☎ 23:46, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
No we cannot. To begin with, it is non-trivial that his "being named 'the Master' and appears as the main Master in multiple stories" is operative with regards to why he should be included, but not Hughes/Parker or Butterworth or Brayshaw or Magnus.
But more importantly, I still think there is no reason to include Dreyfus here if we do not include Jo Martin at The Doctor (she explicitly the Doctor by name, explicitly before the currently-earliest incarnation in the gallery, and has begun appearing as the lead in her own stories). And I don't believe we should do either of those things. There is a long-standing policy of keeping controversial in-universe information out of infoboxes (hence "The Doctor's species" being used in all Doctors' species field). Although it can be bent on a case-by-case basis, I think setting things such that incarnations whose very existence is highly dependent on contradictory accounts, like any of the pre-Delgado Masters or the various pre-Hartnell Doctors, would appear as the page's default thumbnail in categories and Google searches, would be in stark violation of the spirit of that policy. How recurring the Inventor or Fugitive might become doesn't enter into it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 11:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
I personally think that the CoFD Master should get a look in, although the question of exactly where to place him is something of a conundrum. Aquanafrahudy 📢 11:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
On the other hand, of course, we could place him between Bruce and Preacher. Aquanafrahudy 📢 16:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Relationship between Master and Meddling Monk[[edit source]]

I see this site now uses FASA narrative as valid. And it contains something that may settle the controversial issue once and for all. Peter Butterworth's character in The Time Meddler is said to be the Master, but then we also have a "Meddling Monk" in Follow That TARDIS!, plus Rufus Hound in Big Finish Audios. So, how can Butterworth be the Master, AND Hound be a Time Lord unambiguously separate from the Master called "the Meddling Monk"?

The FASA narrative explictly states that in 1066(The Time Meddler) the Master disguised himself as the Meddling Monk. And that this wasn't one of his(the Master's) best schemes. So, in the same way David Morrissey in The Next Doctor wasn't actually The Doctor, Peter Butterworth in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan WAS NOT ACTUALLY THE MEDDLING MONK. He was the Master disguised as the Meddling Monk.

So, while there may be a Mortimus/Meddling Monk separate to the Master, the guy in The Time Meddler/The Daleks' Master Plan was NOT the Meddling Monk. It was the Master DISGUISED AS the Meddling Monk. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 197.87.143.20 (talk).

Oh good, you again.
Well, according to one account, yes. (Though it's reading the text against itself to imagine that in FASA's account there is such a thing as a real Monk who simply is not the one who actually appears in The Time Meddler.) But according to other accounts it was in fact a distinct guy in Time Meddler. There are conflicting accounts, and this is not a problem, this is not something that needs to be "settled", it's just a fact. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 09:33, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

"Quote marks"[[edit source]]

We finally ditched the quote marks from "The Doctor", post-fork, should we do the same here? × Fractal • 21:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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