Talk:Vienna Salvatori

Vienna definitely IS DWU

Whoever deemed the Vienna stories to be set outside the DWU missed the point quite spectacularly.

Basically, there are two types of DWU big Finish audios....

The first types of stories are stories like the Doctor Who Main Range, the Fourth Doctor Adventures etc. where the stories use licensed BBC characters like the Doctor.

The second types of stories are stories like the Bernice Summerfield audios, the Charlotte Pollard audios etc. Here the characters are owned by people other than the BBC. But they are still clearly and unambiguously DWU characters. It's like the 1960's Dalek comics, or the K-9 television series, or the Auton VHS trilogy. All definitely DWU stories, but DWU stories where the characters are owned by people other than the BBC, and thus don't require an official BBC licence the way that stories featuring the Doctor require an official BBC licence. Vienna is undoubtedly a DWU character(as per The Shadow Heart), but now she's having various adventures without the Doctor, but obviously set in the same universe. 137.158.190.94^{talk to me} 09:02, December 11, 2015 (UTC)

Precisely, but try getting those in charge here to listen. -- TimPendragon ☎ 16:18, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

Given that her creator recently said that she's basically the same in that regard as Benny and Graceless, I'd say this decision should be revised. JagoAndLitefoot ☎ 18:43, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I don't think the discussion ever closed, so I don't think its place outside the DWU is final at all... Quest?on ☎ 19:39, December 13, 2015 (UTC)

The discussion at Thread:125464 is now closed, so any edits to this page should take the decision into account. Shambala108 ☎ 03:06, December 11, 2016 (UTC)

Just wanted to leave a comment here. I know the position of Vienna on this Wiki but in the BTS of the new Master! series, I'd like to point out David Richardson's use of the terms "world" and "universe" are not to be taken literally. He literally states they "gave [Eric Roberts] a boxset and created a universe around him". Also, Chase Masterson is referring to Vienna in this story as being a product of her numerous adventures in the spin-off. She refers to sending her fees to Miracle 3 and her ongoing changing motives from ruthless killer to ethical bounty hunter. Not to mention the vague references to Jexie from Retribution. I'm not suggesting that admins change their position, but I wanted to bring this to light that the lines between the Vienna series and the DWU are definitely blurred. TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 17:38, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, upon continuing this behind the scenes, it's clear that David Richardson's usage of the terms "world" and "universe" are very loose. We understandably assumed Vienna's spin-off to be not valid due to his phrasing of "not in the Doctor Who world". But here he states that he placed this boxset in "its own universe". If we're not allowing Vienna on this Wiki for the previous phrase, then why are we allowing this boxset? We need to accept that that's how David Richardson speaks. I think we can all agree our primary decision was understandable but now we have to reconsider.

This boxset is written with vague references to the series, including Jexie as her 'friend' and colleague, as well as her continued references to 'back home' and also the evolution of Vienna that only took place in the series. They evidently did this to not make non-Vienna listeners uncomfortable and bog them down with backstory, but also because it simply isn't necessary. The lines between both universe are just as blurry as how Graceless is presented. Most Graceless boxsets have very few references to DWU events except the conception trilogy. And then when the Wicked Sisters meet the Fifth Doctor and Leela, their specific adventures aren't really mentioned as any fans that want to jump on would just get confused.

This is just like Graceless. And that's why, after this new evidence, and on top of how the actor herself refers to Vienna the character and the series, I think this needs serious reconsideration for inclusion. TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 17:56, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Having just listened to The Memory Box (available free from Big Finish this week), I am surprised by the idea that Vienna the series was meant to be non-DWU. There are the Slithergee and references to aspects of the Monthly Adventure trilogy she debuted in (Kylo & Aliona, the Wrath Empire). If the behind the scenes intent was that she was not part of the DWU, why bother including these aspects? Also worth noting is that Big Finish included the trailer for Master! with the free giveaway of The Memory Box, which certainly suggests that Vienna in both of these releases is intended by Big Finish to be one and the same. I think reconsideration would be worthwhile here. SherlockTheII ☎ 19:20, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

It would. In fact, it definitely would. There can be no plausible cause not to cover the Vienna series on the Wiki after all this. At the very least, even if we still insist that this fails Rule 4, then we should still have {{invalid}} pages on it, much as we do about the likes of Death Comes to Time.

This is really the sort of thing that make one feel the ache of a lack of Forum very acutely, because although the thread would be a shoe-in, we do, by protocol, need a thread to revalidate Vienna. One very much wants to waive protocol in this particular juncture, but… I'm not comfortable doing so myself. If other admins agree with me, perhaps.

Thoughts, everyone? Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:55, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

See also the extras of Jago & Litefoot: Series Twelve, where just like Richardson with Vienna, the cast comments that they've built up a "separate universe" from Doctor Who. Actors and authors use that phrase a lot in this context to describe the experience of using spinoffs to do stories that wouldn't be a good fit for Doctor Who proper. It's true: Jago & Litefoot is its own thing, and its writers don't care too much about continuity or child-friendliness or any of those things Doctor Who writers have to pay attention to. But that's not a reason to exclude Jago & Litefoot from our coverage, because we're more than a Doctor Who wiki! We're a Torchwood wiki; we're a Gallifrey wiki; we're an Iris Wildthyme wiki; and we should be a Vienna wiki, too. Ideally we'd wait for the forums, but given that their return is still indefinitely far away ... Well, for whatever it's worth, as an ordinarily user I'd be in favor of waiving protocol in this instance. – n8 (☎) 20:15, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

I won't repeat what's already been said, but I agree that Vienna should be covered - it seems no different to me than, say, Graceless. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 21:31, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Vienna's Century

When are the bulk of Vienna's adventures? The 26th century? At the very least, Shadow Heart and Dead Drop are set at some period when the Earth Empire exists. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by ByAsura (talk • contribs) .