Talk:Child Master (The Then and the Now)

Permanent name

Is everyone fine with War Child? I know some have wanted War Child Master, but if you read the story this contradicts the actual material in-question. In the story, he doesn't have a name because he's in the Time War. OS25🤙☎️ 05:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I know that some might argue that "War Child Master" is what most fans will call the character in their heads. But personally, I think we should pick the page name that we want people to call the characters. I don't want articles referring to this character as the Master, so I don't want that in the page name.

Sorry to argue with myself. OS25🤙☎️ 23:27, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

We should not be "picking the page name that we want people to call the characters", we should be picking the page name that people already call the characters! Our place as a wiki is to be a descriptive encyclopedia, not a prescriptive source of new fan lore. If there is no consensus name in fandom or behind-the-scenes for an incarnation, it is not our place to just make one up. And there is no unique consensus name for this character. The story dab should remain. – n8 (☎) 01:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

As I said in the main page, I don't mind the DAB being there. It's just that The Master is not a correct pagename. War Child (The Then and the Now) is a fine name. The Master (The Then and the Now) is not, and calling the Master as depicted in this story the Master is not appropriate for our in-universe pages. OS25🤙☎️ 06:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

This is not an example where we don't know the name. It's an example where we know the character has no name. And simply ignoring this and calling him "The Master" anyways is paramount to having Missy be The Master (Deep Breath). OS25🤙☎️ 06:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

If "War Child" is the part that bugs you, we could also very well call this The Child (The Then and the Now), given he appears numerous times before his former identity is revealed. OS25🤙☎️ 06:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I fully support War Child, or if we can't do that, "Child (The Then and The Now" Cousin Ettolrhc ☎ 07:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I must say I don't support "War Child" or any generic name like that. This incarnation doesn't just renounce his name and take on a new one like the War Doctor did, he renounces any name, and it just so happens no one calls him anything to his face. When Alice returns from the Time War, before she forgets, she tells the Eleventh Doctor she met "the Master... as a little boy." So does the Squire.

So I disagree with the notion that it is incorrect to call him "the Master". Just because he doesn't use the name, doesn't mean he himself is not the Master. He is "an incarnation of the Master" as much as the War Doctor is "an incarnation of the Doctor". (See, for a well-known demonstration, "Haddocks' Eyes". That one Volatix Cabal Dalek would probably like it.) In lack of a name, we could call him Boy (The Then and the Now), but we can do better than that. Because really, the most important point here is that the fact that the best way to identify this character is that he is the Master. Calling him anything else in absence of a new name like the Lumiat has is confusing and misleading.

All that said, I think there's another way to do this. This incarnation's existence is limited to a particular timeline which, while not entirely "aborted", was effectively erased. The timeline "unhappened" so to speak, even though its consequences remained in the post-Time War universe. That's why the Squire exists but "has no history". So I think this timeline should have a page, and the Master can be considered particular to it, kind of like The Master (The Warrior's universe). Then, per T:DAB OTHER, the disambiguation term will be the reality the character is from, which is much more helpful than the story dab anyway. The question just remains as to what to call that timeline. Perhaps "The Malignant's timeline"? Not sure. Chubby Potato ☎ 12:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC) (P.S.: Thanks for getting me to reread 11DY2)

No no no no. None of what you're saying in this final passage is in the text. At most, we see him regress physically. There is no indication in the story that his entire life "never happened." That's not the plot to the story, it's a bad reading of a quote by the author.

And you certainly can't say that the ENTRE EVENTS OF THAT SECTION OF THE COMIC DID NOT HAPPEN. The Eleventh Doctor encounters these plot points in the future. No. Missy even goes and sees this Master long after the events of this comic. This is not a "defunct timeline" by any definition.

And I still insist that as it's stated that this character doesn't identify with the name of the Master, that's important enough to effect our coverage. I really don't give a damn what other characters call him when he's not around. OS25🤙☎️ 14:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

That's not quite what I meant. I didn't mean to say any of the stuff, or this incarnation, "never happened" or that it's an "alternate" or "defunct" timeline. Moreso that from a temporal standpoint, the events ceased to exist, but they still happened. Kind of like the cracks in time. Upon further thought though, treating it as anything separate would just complicate things beyond the story. I was also getting confused by the relative future in which the chronal tumor is created, and took the Squire "having no history" literally. Missy debunks all this anyway, so just forget it.

Okay so that aside, I notice the infobox has "young boy" as an alias. Is this an actual alias he uses? It doesn't sound like it but if so, it could work. Chubby Potato ☎ 14:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

We're not moving on from this. When you say "from a temporal standpoint, the events ceased to exist", what I need you to know is that's not in the story. That's not in the comic.

In issue 11, the Squire says to 11: "That bow wave caught us all. The Master flung who-knows-when. Your past self, memory scorched."

So, again, it is not a pocket timeline, or a timeline with reverted effects, or a timeline set aside. It happened and their memories were erased. OS25🤙☎️ 15:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Really, I don't think we're actually inventing a name here. We're just putting two words that describe the character. "War" is the accepted prefix for any Time Lord during the Time War. "Child" is because he's a child. He's the War child, the Time War child, that's what he is. The name recommendation is fine. OS25🤙☎️ 15:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I checked issue 12, and the intro text very clearly calls this character "the Child Master." I'm going through the rest of the issues, but at this point let's just go with that since there's no other official terminology for him. For obvious reasons, we'll probably still need the story dab since there's a more famous child Master from the TV show. OS25🤙☎️ 22:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, so it ended up working out as an official name, I missed those as I have the graphic novels. I agree with Child Master (The Then and the Now), and the page can have {{for}}:

For the Master's initial life as a child, see the Master's early life .

Good work finding that and clearing up the timeline stuff. (I wonder if any other comic intros have info of use like this…) Chubby Potato ☎ 00:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Child Master (The Then and the Now). A direct usage like this should definitely take precedence over any other concerns. PintlessMan ☎ 17:27, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I also agree with "Child Master". BananaClownMan ☎ 09:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Great find, OS25. I also support Child Master (The Then and the Now), with the {{for}} as described by Mr Potato. – n8 (☎) 13:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Seems we have a consensus! Moving to Child Master (The Then and the Now). Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)