User:SOTO/Forum Archive/The Panopticon/@comment-197.86.143.126-20200606192351/@comment-197.86.143.126-20200620195752

Is this topic still active? Just some more tidbits, and very interested in what other people think..

Here's an interview with Robert Holmes from 1985(or rather a link to a transcript of it)[1] . The quote is

• "They have one image that they project but they were something else to themselves, which every now and then produced renegages like the Meddling Monk, Omega and the Master.".

"They" here, are, of course, the Time Lords. He doesn't mention "the War Chief" as a separate renegade Time Lord.

Meanwhile, Paul Cornell's Goth Opera (novel) features a Time Lord character called "Ruath". Unlike the Doctor, Ruath stayed on Gallifrey. Ruath is unimpressed with the renegade Time Lords, and lists them (page 195):

• “Mortimus, the Rani, that idiot Magnus. And you, Doctor. All graduates of Borusa's Academy for scoundrels.”

So, where's the War Chief among the list of renegades? Unless he's actually included in those four.

Someone also mentioned an interesting fact on another site. The discussion was about "Stories that were erased from ever having existed", and The War Games (TV story) was mentioned. As the Time Lords erased the War Lord and his accomplices were erased,

Exact quote from Episode 10:

• TIME LORD: You have been found guilty of all charges, and you and your murderous associates will be dematerialised. It will be as though you had never existed.

Thus, The War Games' never actually happened. Meaning that unless someone was part of the story, and didn't have their memories liked(like all the humans in the story), they couldn't possibly know about the events The War Games at all.

But then, in Frontier in Space (TV story), the Doctor tells Jo about The War Games while they're being held prisoners. The Master overhears them, and it's clear from his reactions that he knows all about The War Games (TV story). But that is impossible...unless he was there in person before the events of The War Games were undone by the Time Lords.

Lastly, what are the motives, beliefs etc. of The War Chief and The Master? Are they different? Let's see...

From The War Games Episode 8:

• DOCTOR: Your reasons are only too obvious. Power!

WAR CHIEF: How much have you learnt of our plans?

DOCTOR: I know that you've been kidnapping soldiers from the Earth from various times in it's history and bringing them here to kill one another.

WAR CHIEF: But do you realise our ultimate objectives?

DOCTOR: No objective can justify such slaughter.

WAR CHIEF: The war games on this planet are simply the means to an end. The aliens intend to conquer the entire galaxy. A thousand inhabited worlds.

DOCTOR: Yes, but why choose the people of the Earth?

WAR CHIEF: They are the most suitable recruits for our armies. Man is the most vicious species of all.

DOCTOR: Well, that simply isn't true.

WAR CHIEF: Consider their history. For a half a million years they have been systematically killing each other. Now we can turn this savagery to some purpose. We can bring peace to the galaxy, and you can help. You see, I'm not the cold-hearted villain you suppose me to be. My motives are purely peaceful.

...

• DOCTOR: You have given these aliens our science and our knowledge to carry out this disgusting plan.

WAR CHIEF: We are going to bring a new order to the galaxy, one United Galactic Empire.

DOCTOR: An empire of slaves, with you as one of its rulers.

...

• DOCTOR: I never promised to help you!

WAR CHIEF: But you will. You have no alternative.

DOCTOR: But to help people like that to conquer the galaxy?

WAR CHIEF: Not people like that, people like us. I intend to take over as Supreme Galactic Ruler. You can help me to rule, if you will cooperate. -- Now, let's see what The Master is all about, From Colony in Space (TV story) Episode 6:

• GUARDIAN: Why have you returned? What do you want here?

MASTER: I want to restore this city and this planet to their former glory.

DOCTOR: Don't listen to him, sir.

MASTER: You have here a wonderful weapon. Why, with it you could bring good and peace to every world in the galaxy.

DOCTOR: On the contrary. He'll bring only death and destruction.

MASTER: This planet of yours could be the centre of a mighty empire! The greatest that the cosmos has ever known.

DOCTOR: Tell me, sir, has this weapon of yours ever brought good to your planet?

GUARDIAN: Once the weapon was built, our race began to decay. The radiation from the weapon's power source poisoned the soil of our planet.

DOCTOR: Exactly. The weapon has only brought death, and yet he wants to spread that death throughout the galaxy! Unless you destroy this weapon, sir, he will use it for evil.

MASTER: No! You must be mad! Why, with this, we could control every galaxy in the cosmos! We could be gods! -- Identical. Because it's the same person. And it always was.

If the decision to NOT split The Master article into incarnations is now fact, then surely some information about The War Chief should be added to the article. Or at the very least, a section detailing that The War Chief could be The Master, with some of the information contained in this discussion used. Or, other information stating the same thing.