Howling:Rory's death

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I think this also has something to do with the entire erasing things idea. This just turns into one big plothole: if Rory is absorbed and therefore completely erased from reality, and Amy forgets him, this brings up big problems.

• How can Amy still remember the soldiers that were abosrbed by the crack?
• How did the Doctor survive actually STICKING HIS HAND IN IT when everything else is completely erased?
• How did the Doctor discover the source of Prisoner 0's power without Rory's help in TEH?

I honestly though Steve Moffat was better than this. Discuss. the twelfth doctor 11:56, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hi !

Whilst I agree that it is odd the Doctor can stick his hand inside the crack and be 'fine', whereas Rory was absorbed - however I am sure there is an explanation. However you cannot really blame Steven Moffat for this as it isn't his script. He didn't write the episode, therefore you're blame must lie with the writer, which was Christopher Chibnall. Tommy1571 13:07, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

1) You mean the clerics? Because they were not directly involved in her life. That was explained in the episode. Basically the more involved the person in in your life the more likely you will forget them.

2) Someone kinda tried to explain this somewhere else. The person said that it wanted Rory for some reason and not the Doctor. Kind of like the crack has a mind of it's own. I'm sure that one will be explained given time.

3) Time was re-written. That's like asking why the Doctor left Amy alone in the forest. Time was re-written around the fact that Rory no longer exists so even though they didn't go back to show you how everything played out without him, to everyone besides the Doctor it all happened differently. It still happened but in a different way.

V00D00M0NKY 12:18, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Precisely. The crack has a mind of its own. There's a design behind all the changes in the timeline. This, I feel, adequately explains any apparent "plotholes". Bluebox444 12:24, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

First, #2 is easy, and I honestly don't know why everyone is so puzzled. There are three big differences between the Doctor's case and Rory's:

• It took minutes for the time energy to erase Rory--it was still going on as they were leaving. The Doctor put his hand in for a few seconds.
• Rory is a normal person who's traveled in time a couple times. The Doctor is a "tremendously complicated space-time event". We know that such a thing is much harder to erase from history. That's why he would be enough to close the crack, while River, or anything less than hundreds of Angels, wouldn't be.
• The Doctor is clearly struggling against something, making noises and Troughton faces. Rory, being dead, presumably wasn't struggling.

So, the time field was "trying" to erase the Doctor, but it didn't get a chance to.

As for #3, I think you've got a different conception of how time works than the show does. There isn't a straight-line timeline. The reason time travelers can remember things as they were before history was changed is because that timeline still exists, right alongside the new one. The Doctor remembers Rory helping him because in his past, Rory actually did help him. You can try to work out the details, or you can call it wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey, but you can't just apply the physics and common sense of a world where time travel is impossible to time travel, or it makes everything impossible. --Falcotron 12:33, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well ya the Doctor remembers Rory helping him but from Amy's recollection of the times she had with Rory have been re-written. Maybe that's not time being re-written but it's her memories but something was changed besides just Rory not having ever existed. V00D00M0NKY 12:41, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

There is a timeline in which Rory never existed. This one is pretty simple, although it has lots of differences, big and little, from what we've seen on the show. This is the one that affects all non-time-travelers.

There is also a timeline in which Rory existed up until he got eaten by the time energy. This one is also simple, and it's exactly what we've seen on the show. This is the one that affects the Doctor.

Amy doesn't live on either of those timelines. It's possible that there's a third, very complicated, timeline for her.

But it's also possible that she just jumped from one to the other, and her history and memory are therefore inconsistent. The human brain is built to confabulate, to paper over inconsistencies. You and I don't remember nearly as much as we think we do, but our brains fill in the gaps with whatever seems to fit the story. Her brain will do the same thing if she tries to remember how the Doctor figured out Prisoner Zero, or why she went to Venice with the Doctor, or why he refused to sleep with her, etc.. It doesn't matter that in this case, it's not just her memory but her actual past that's inconsistent; there's no way she'd be able to tell the difference. --Falcotron 12:54, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

I think for now I'll just go with what you said. Even though I was trying to say almost the same thing anyway I think. But until we see how Amy recalls situations, it's going to be tough to be sure how it works. Also the fact that the engagement ring still exists makes everything more confusing. Especially because (I'm sure people will agree with me on this) it will be significant in later episodes. V00D00M0NKY 13:01, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Theory? Theory. We have been proposing that the Doctor may or may not have appeared as new and old Doctor in Flesh and Stone. And he told Amy to remember. Remember what? I think it might be Rory. But why would he tell her before she knew what it was about? Well, simply because if she was told AFTER they had joined with Rory, she would have forgotten all about it. She would have forgotten it because it was about Rory. But - if she remembers - how will Rory have lived? Because Rory will have lived up until that point on the hillside. Amy mentions she thought she saw another person - residual memory? Or a memory fighting to become truth? We never see exactly what happens to Rory - he may be lost, he may not. Moffat has been telling us all season that time doesn't work the way we think it does. Maybe this is what he means. 219.90.240.172 14:52, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

"Remember what I told you when you were 7." And you say that he was talking about Rory there? You think the Doctor told Amy about Rory when she was 7? V00D00M0NKY 21:17, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

V00D00M0NKY, I was mostly agreeing with you on #3 (and I agreed with you so completely on #1 that I didn't have anything to add), but elaborating on it. The "I think you've got a different conception..." bit was to the twelfth doctor's original question/complaint, not to you.

Anon IP guy, in FaS, as V00D00M0NKY said at the same time I was trying to type this (damn you for being more concise and faster! :)), unless he first told her at 7 to remember Rory, and then told her in FaS to remember that he'd told her to remember Rory, that doesn't really work. And that would be really odd and convoluted, wouldn't it? Certainly being told to remember Rory at 7 would have affected her life up until The Beast Below far more than it would affect her afterward. Especially since, if that's what he was doing, we know that it didn't work, because CB was later in her timeline, and she couldn't remember him.

But it could be something sort of similar. Maybe he told her about how time travel affects your timeline, gives you a choice to remember things the original way, etc. This could have helped her in FaS in some way that we couldn't directly see at the time, and will also help her to bring Rory back in The Big Bang, I suppose. --Falcotron 21:22, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I thought you were directing that one at me because most of this was just me and you commenting. But thinking more about what anon-IP said, the Doctor may not directly tell her about Rory but instead tell her something that will end up helping her remember him after she forgets him. Kind of like a memory marker that the Doctor will try to use to bring her memory of him back. V00D00M0NKY 21:43, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

When something is erased, the consequences remain. The timeline remains the way it was even with events gone, as time works its way around the erased event. Delton Menace 12:46, May 31, 2010 (UTC)