Howling:New Whoniverse

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Okay now the big bang had the doctor recreating everything. Is there a new Whoniverse or what. Is this just the old one recreated or have bigger changes come about for instance can people now remember those events that were wiped or not. Well to be honest I suppose we may know the answer when the doc meets up with Sarah Jane and Jo Grant if people can remember them. But still though is this crisis on infinte earths a complete reboot of the whoniverse or is it just another journey's end spider wars. For instance if the multiverse is different then should we have an article for it like whoniverse 2 or new whoniverse like dc comics new earth. Should we even have new articles on characters like Amy Pond [New Whoniverse] Daleks [New Whoniverse] if it does turn out that this is a whole different reality. Personally I hope that it is just a journey's end in that he saved the multiverse rather than completely rebuild it, I mean I liked the idea of a new rebooted canon at first but now having thought about I think its to big a thing to do that. Let me know what your opinions are do you think this is just the old canon restored or do you think its now an entirely new canon with some convienent similarities to the old one and convienent differences to the old one Winehousefan, 14:00, July 4 2010 [UTC

The Doctor said that Amy's timeline is slightly different, so at least Amy is different...anyway, we know that what happened in Series 5 and Series 1-4 can't co-exist on the same timeline, so at least one of the timelines is gones, thus it is not a restoration...203.168.176.42 13:24, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

You really have to go with everything is the same until it's explicitly stated that it isn't. I like the idea of everything being new and open and unfettered by 'past' continuity but I can't see the point in marking everything up whoniverse and newwhoniverse at this stage. Wait and see. Moffat may not have intended a significant change at all and may think that he's put everything back exactly as it was or he may think that he's got rid of everything he didn't want. Has he been interviewed about his yet? In the end only he and the other writers will make the decision. Jack Chilli 14:43, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

The universe as ew knew it from 1963 to 2010 was destroyed... and then rebooted. It does appear as though the series now takes place in a new Whoniverse where none of the old or revived series evenets ever took place because they were in the old, destroyed universe.

A spoiler for Torchwood series 4 has mentioned that it now takes place in a world where no one remembers any of the alien invasions that happened, as if they never happened. Click that with the fact that in Doctor Who series 5, which aired before Torchwood series 4 (both of which ar ein new eras), which shows things being erased and eventually the universe being destroyed and rebooted. They click.

Going by Torchwood series 4, the evnets of the series 56 finale have totally recreated the Whoniverse. It's a similar, but there are some drastic changes - no invasions, from what we're getting. So the reboot of series 5 and the Torchwood series 4 spoiler both say the universe has changed hugely following Big Bang Two. We will need to see what we learn from The Sarah Jane Adventures series 4, now. Notably, the episode the Doctor will be in.

In thoery, RTD and Moffat, both show runners of Whoniverse-set shows, might have wanted to keep the continuity between them, and rebooted the universe in Doctor Who, which would then make it so that in Torchwood, too, and possibly SJA, the reboot applies to their new series, too. Delton Menace 15:15, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

I think we're gonna have to play this one by ear, See what happens in SJA and Torchwood. Ugh...we're going to have to rewrite a lot of articles... - I. Am. Excalibur-117-^{(talk • contribs)} 15:19, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Oh boy, very true, Excalibur. By rewriting time in the show to such an extent, articles need to be rewritten, too. It's such a pain. The problem now is that all of the continuity with have placed on here could have all gone to pot following the reboot of the universe. We could have a new, similar, or even hugely different, continuity now. I have said it before, and I will say it again, we need to stop placing all events in that one timeline. The Whoniverse has been recreated, and goodness knows what now.

The events of series 5 are all part of an alternate timeline now. It will be even more awkward if the cracks, honestly, never even happened. We have the original timeline, the original timeline with some events erased by the crack, the timeline then destroyed and rebooted, a world then where the cracks never even happened. This is very awkward.

By thory, from now on, it's a different timeline to before, but similar. But what about River? Post-Big Bang River would go on to do events in the timeline with the cracks, removed events, the old timeline.

I mean, it would mean that when River first me tthe Doctor, she was in the rebooted universe, then the old universe for The Big Bang, then the new universe, then the old universe for The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. Ugh. *facepalm* Delton Menace 15:33, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

At any rate, there's not much we can do right now. Put this discussion on the back burner for now, then revisit it come DW Series 6, TW and SJA Series 4. - I. Am. Excalibur-117-^{(talk • contribs)} 15:39, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Based on the spoiler Delton said about torchwood 4 having no alien invasions suggests to me this is a crisis on infinite earths type reboot and we will have a new continuity.. Whether this is as big reboot as new earth in dc comics I.E these are now different characters with similar histories as oppossed to the same characters with parts of their past changed reamains to be seen. Excalibur is right until series 6 we will not know for sure. I have very mixed feelings, on the one hand a new Whoniverse and a second big bang is a very interesting idea but I think it might be to much friction among fans, look at dc comics people are still bitching about crisis on infinite earths. Winehousefan, 19:07, July 4, 2010[UTC]

Why not keep all articles the same but create a new articles called 'Timelines' that explains that some things on the Wiki may now not exist in official Who canon but probably do in a parallel universe. This is because time travel is heavily featured.... Would that not save the hassle of re-writing every article? 92.26.234.162 16:48, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

I am just wondering if they are different characters . I mean is this like new characters vcreated from the old or are they the same ones in a newly built universe. Its hard to tell though I don't think Moff would have killed all those old characters. Winehousefan. 18:10, July 4 2010

Ok this may just be techno babble but I think its logical. The Pandorica would have had atoms of the universe from 100 BC. So that would be the universe it duplicated. Time would start to replay from there. And have slight variations probably. Rather than being like the DC reboots, this could "fix" some problems from earlier stories. Like Who stories set in the 80s and 90s of their future. So thats why Rose and the newer companions dont remember Mondas invading the Earth in 1986. You would have those "fixed" points the Doctor is always going on about while other things are malable. Regardless my point is that not all of time would change. Just the past 2000 years 173.57.144.238 00:04, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Is there any real evidence for the new Whoniverse? The thing smelled to me like Big Reset Button, not new continuity. Doesn't the re-emergence of the Doc from the other side of the cracks pretty restore previous continuity since he would remember it? I'm just not sure if this is wishful thinking from those that dislike the RTD storylines (which I can't say as I blame them completely) or if there was something on screen that I missed. If there's actual on-screen evidence, point it out. That may be the case, as so many people seem positive of the "New Whoniverse". BrainySpecs 00:00, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the Doc mentioned in some point of the episode that the restoration isn't perfect, some stuff will be changed --203.168.176.42 04:28, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, BrainySpecs, I was thinking the same thing. I thought everything was reset exactly as it was before and was totally bewildered about where the "New Whoniverse" stuff was coming from. Can anyone give me the line of dialog about things not being perfect and stuff being changed is? I missed that.207.171.242.66 22:28, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

I thought that the Doctor said (or at least implied) that the universe would be restarted exactly the same, except that everything swallowed by the cracks, unless it was remembered at the moment of the restart, would remain gone from history. This would mean that most of the Doctor Who continuity did happen, but not the alien invasions which everyone forgot, presumably because they were swallowed by cracks. (Like The Next Doctor, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, etc.) That was my interpretation.--Registered Contributor II 22:55, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

"except that everything swallowed by the cracks, unless it was remembered at the moment of the restart" - but all of space and history except River, Amy, and Rory were already swallowed by the cracks, so wouldn't that mean that most of the universe's history wouldn't exist, since those three can't possibly remember the bulk of it. Admittedly, River would at least know more species, but still . . . 207.171.242.66 00:47, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Look, the universe is the same. Exactly the same. The Pandorica contained the blueprints of the universe because it was created using Amy's memories. Amy's memories contained everything in the universe as the crack in her wall spilled into her mind every night. When the light shone through every time and place, it restored all of it. There is no new whoniverse. It is the same one. --The Thirteenth Doctor 00:54, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

CORRECTION: The Pandorica contained the blueprint of the Universe because it contained atoms of the Universe before the explosion not because it was created using Amy's memories. The Doctor clearly explained it in the episode. --203.168.176.42 10:14, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

The point still stands. The universe is the same. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:40, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

You mean the Universe is the same to when?

Before Series 5, there would be the Cybus Cybermen's invasion in the Next Doctor, the Dalek's contemporary invasions, etc.

In the beginning of Series 5, these events don't exist. Amy has no parents.

In the middle of Series 5, Rory doesn't exist.

During The Big Bang (episode), most of the Universe is erased.

Near the end of The Big Bang: Amy has parents; Rory exists; the Doctor never existed (thus all adventures related to the Doctor don't exist)

At the end of The Big Bang, Doctor exists.

River Song said none of this (Series 5) would have happened, and Amy would just wake up Doctor said if Amy remembered her parents they would exist (implying that if she didn't, they wouldn't exist) Amy doesn't remember Dalek invasions nor Cyberking during her past adventures with the Doctor

Therefore, regardless of what the characters remember, the new timeline must contradict what we have seen on screen in either Amy's memory of the Dalek/Cybermen invasions or that none of Series 5 ever happened or other inconsistencies. --16:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oh wait...Jack might have made a prophecy when he said 21st Century is when 'everything' changes...quite literally everything --203.168.176.42 16:21, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it IS the same universe, as noted a little above. Besides, if it wasn't, that would mean River Song experience her meeting with the Doctor and all of the currently unseen things in the old universe, and the Doctor experiences the exact same things in the new universe, only for her to go on and experience eventw tih him in the old one - WTF? It's the same universe, restored. Delton Menace 17:08, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

I hope your above doesn't mean me, because that's not what I was saying. "New universe" is a bad term the comic geeks picked up, what they meant to say is a new primary timeline due to all those things that the Doctor did on a secondary timeline in The Big Bang. Series 1-4 and Series 5 are contradicting, they can't both be on the primary timeline. Yes, the Universe is restored, but restored to when? The true question is whether or not everything from Series 1-4 are unchanged, including events like The Next Doctor and Dalek's contemporary Earth invasions, and Series 5 never happened on the primary timeline or are some of the things from Series 5 restored and some part of Series 5 and/or Series 1-4 are retconned to compromise the fact that part of Series 5 is based on some events of Series 1-4 never happening. --203.168.176.42 00:35, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Now you're kind of... pushing it. The only erased events are from the end of series 4, two events that happen beside each other. They made it so that the CyberKing invasion had been erased to explain why no one remembered it in history, which the Tenth Doctor noted no one remembering it in the same episode. The Dalek invasion was the same - in certain places, no one remembed. Series 5 explained why and cleared up two continuity errors.

But when the cracks were closed, everything they erased was restored, such as Amy's family, Rory, the invasions, ect. The problem is The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone - if none of series 5 ever happened now, how did post-Big Bang River Song go on to experience those events. Moffat really has some explaining to do.

Series has exists only in memory following The Big Bang, but somehoe River still experiences one event. But then again, River had no idea what the crack was or what was going on with the explosion date, despite experiencing the evnets of the finale. WTF. I'm really confused! The Doctor even tells finale River about the cracks and she sees the destruction date, yet has no idea about either in her first series 5 appearance. Delton Menace 16:31, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

What continuity errors were there concerning the Dalek invasion? You're not making sense; you're turning a discussion into a paradox when we don't even know what is restored and what isn't in the new timeline. How do your assumptions work when the information isn't even revealed yet? --203.168.176.42 17:12, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Delton, the way I see it with River is that, in the same way in back to the future where they travel to the past then back to a changed future, it is like that. River will travel back to a time before the Doctor was on the path to fixing the cracks, then live through the cracks ordeal, before going back in time to fix that. If you get what I mean. I'll upload a diagram to show you. --The Thirteenth Doctor 20:21, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Please do upload a diagram, it's really confusing through basic text. I need to burst my own bubble, though. DWM apparantly has an interview with Moffat revealing that no one is aware of aliens and the like anymore in the 21st century following the finale, due to the reboot. Delton Menace 00:46, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

    Yay, so you were wrong. --203.168.176.42 04:05, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

You win a ... umm ... well...

I'm still hanging out for the new episodes. :P the angel Jean - Smith's little elf 04:12, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Hopefully this will help. Just start from one on the diagram then follow. I forgot to note on it, the bendy lines are when she most probably time travelled somewhat. I hope this is easier. --The Thirteenth Doctor 12:58, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

What we know of River's timeline + little speculation