Howling:Regeneration limit?

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Moffat said that one of his old friends was supposed to give a nod to the regeneration limit. Did anyone see anything of the sort in the entire series? Could it have been edited out? The only thing I can think of is this. It was the Dream Lord. If he was the Valeyard, then that would mean that the Tenth's aborted regeneration counted, and Smith's regeneration will be his twelfth. This would explain how the Dream Lord was created in the first place. Does anyone have any other ideas, or know? The Thirteenth Doctor 23:18, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Surely with the previous doctor sequences to the Atraxi and the Daleks focusing on all previous incarnations and therefore confirming McGann counts as no. 8 (even if it was american tripe imho!), then in the Lodger head bang sequence where Smith states he is the 11th... surely this does away with all the apparant squabbling in the classic series era about whether or not Hartnel as our 1st doctor had or had not previously regenerated. Makes perfect sense to me and I confess I'm not up on Classic Who! 86.26.137.154 07:55, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Didn't the Five Doctors already confirm that the 1st was indeed the 1st. The fifth Doctor referred to himself as the fourth regeneration. TemporalSpleen 08:59, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

• Yeah, I'm sure the Five Doctors confirmed it. I don't think it is the number of Doctors there have been, that has been shown before. When he said regeneration limit, most people would assume it is to do with the twelve regenerations limit that he has. If it was just that Matt is the eleventh, I'll be sorely disappointed. The Thirteenth Doctor 09:15, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Moffat means because this Doctor was created from Amy's imagination, he is the first incarnation of a new Doctor, so he still has another 12 to go. In other words, did he get reset back to 1 ? 187.112.18.121 10:13, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

There is a possible clue, just not very obvious, that I posted in the Rive Song thread....the old friend may mean an episode with Weeping Angels:

Assuming, River Song killed the Doctor...he murdered a final Doctor that doesn't regenerate...we'll label it the Xth Doctor

We know when River met the Tenth, she said there is a Doctor that she has traveled with and another with a 'new haircut' and she met the Tenth for the first time...That gives us two addition incarnations after the Tenth

When the River met the Eleventh, we are at the part of her timeline where she hasn't met the 'new haircut' doctor. If the "good man" she murdered is the Doctor, then Eleventh can't be the last incarnation because there is the "new haircut" Doctor, and because the "new haircut" Doctor is new to River Song later in her timeline and the Xth Doctor is already dead, that would mean that the Xth Doctor is the 13th. In other words, the Doctor gets his full 13th Incarnations and dies afterward just like how he is suppose to and doesn't die anytime before that...203.168.176.42 10:46, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand entirely all of the post above me, so correct me if I'm wrong (and this has already been established) - but does everyone here seem to be assuming that River's timeline is backwards to the Doctor's? Her first encounter with the Doctor does NOT necessarily mean that it's the Xth Doctor, then working back to twelve, eleven (however many he has) and then to ten. Her first encounter might be with the eleventh, then she meets the twelfth, then the eleventh again, then the Xth, then kills him, then meets the eleventh again, then ten. Her timeline could be all over the place, not necessarily just moving in the opposite direction. The eleventh doctor may still be the haircut suit doctor, but then the twelfth will still see her again.. in an earlier stage for her, of course :) Sorry if that was irrelevant XD 220.237.124.247 11:33, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

We're not...we just know that she already killed 'the good man' before the eleventh met her (and there is a new haircut doctor and an additional doctor that she has traveled with before meeting the Tenth, and one of them is the Eleventh...so the other is the 12th)...and from the order she read the journal, we just know that the haircut appeared after Byzantium...so haircut would be 12th...therefore the "good man"...if he is the Doctor...must be 13th...tada...203.168.176.42 11:58, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

• The fact he says he has a new haircut implies that she has seen that version of the Doctor before his haircut, but it isn't said which version it it. It has been implied that it was the tenth offscreen, but it could be the eleventh, or twelfth. But this is getting off topic now. The Thirteenth Doctor 12:00, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh...I've always thought that the new haircut meant a completely new regeneration..a new face...a new haircut...I never even thought about it meaning literally a haircut...222.166.181.187 12:26, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • How come I fail to see how there is a confirmed "other doctor/12th"? Where do we actually get the information that she's meeting another one, and who says the haircut doctor isn't the eleventh? And when she read the diary, she was like "I'm guessing it's early days for you, yeah? Crash at the Byzantium, have we done yet?" implying that that's very early in her timeline - then again, it could be his.220.237.124.247 12:39, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

• There is no evidence that it isn't the Eleventh. The only reason we think she may have also met the 12th is this: the Doctor gave her pictures of his faces. Knowing which incarnations she wouldn't meet, as he had already lived through those ones, he would only give her the faces that she would need. Now, River says that she's got pictures of "all [his] faces". The fact she said all, and not both (tenth and eleventh) suggests more than two. She may have pictures of the 1st through 11th (and more) but we just don't know. Of course this is speculation, but it does make sense. --The Thirteenth Doctor 13:00, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

• The whole thing really depends on if the "haircut" is a literal haircut or a regeneration...If it's literal, then the whole thing falls apart (though we've rarely seen the Doctor getting a haircut)...if it's not then there must be a 12th and 13th, if the Doctor is really permanently killed by River...We know Byzantium happens before the "haircut" Doctor gave River her Sonic Screwdriver...so 11th is not the "haircut" Doctor...and since the permanently killed Doctor (the Xth Doctor) must be the last in the Doctor's timeline, Xth Doctor can't be 11th. As Byzantium happens before the screwdriver, and the murder happens before the Byzantium, so the new "haircut" Doctor can't be the Xth Doctor...(since that wouldn't be a new Doctor)...So the Xth must be the 13th if all of the original assumptions hold....

• In other words, 10th is after "haircut", "Xth", and 11th...11th is before "haircut" and after "Xth", therefore "haircut" cannot be "Xth" because the "haircut" is a new Doctor that River hasn't seen and she has already seen the 11th and the Xth at that point....Xth can't be 11th, because if 11th is Xth then there can't be the "haircut"...and so resulting in

• 1. River first murders the 13th, and then meets 11th (and early 13th could keep popping up at any point from now to the end of River's timeline)

• 2. the 12th (the new haircut) pops up and gives River the screwdriver, this is the first time River meets 12th (again 11th and 13th could keep popping up)

• 3. meets up with the 10th for the first time in the library and dies due to bad plotlines....

• Though the whole thing is probably going to turn out that the "good man" is actually not the 13th...just think about it...if each Doctor stays around for a few series...by the time River murders the Doctor (which happens early on in River's timeline to a supposingly younger River), Alex Kingston will be old enough to play Davros without special effect makeup.....and think of the disgusting romance scenes...Doctor Who in the 20 Year-Old-Looking Doctor and the Pedophile....plus again, no one will probably detain anyone for murdering the Doctor...222.166.181.33 13:23, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
• Also, think about it. Steven Moffat said he'd got a trick to get around the regeneration thing - and come on, I would be really, really surprised if they actually stopped the show altogether for GOOD because of a 'time lord rule' someone made up in the show years ago. I think most people would rather see the most ridiculous explanation around it, as long as the show kept running - and I think BBC would too. And if that happens, (as mentioned above) Alex Kingston will get too old (unless she is a Time Lady or can somehow regenerate/change forms), so River's going to have to go out of the show at the 13th, I think. At latest. 220.237.124.247 13:29, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
• River could have the ability to live in different bodies even if she isn't a Time lord. Shw could be a whole host of possible things that can change bodies so a differnet acress can play her in the future. Even if this is not true then if she knows the Doc so well she has to spend quite a bit of time with him so she could have met him when she was a lot younger. So somebody else could play a twenty-something River with the diffences down to aging and 'surgery' after what the Doc let happen to her on an adventure on the acid-ant infested buggalug-6. Jack Chilli 17:23, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
  • Yay, 1 for Jack Chilli for posting the most stupid and far-fetched speculative comment that sounds like it's written by a 3 year old boy. Changing bodies and plastic surgery is just way too overboard based on what we know...and the style and tone don't even match those of the show...Does it sound NuWho to suddenly see River getting disfigured and comes back next week with a plastic surgery....--222.166.181.110 08:20, August 1, 2010 (UTC)