Howling:Moffat lied...again

The Howling → Moffat lied...again

There be spoilers about un-released stories here.
Run back to the forums if you're scared.

Not a shock...rule 1, Moffat lies. Still, The Name of the Doctor (TV story) seemed disappointing in that hardly anything was resolved. We found out why there are multiple Clara's, but that was it. No secret was revealed. The whisper men were severely dissappointing. I had a feeling it would be continued, but watched it anyway. Sigh...I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens in Novemember. Still, it makes me upset to be promised a great secret revealed and then...nothing... Thoughts? Whosethebestwho ☎ 12:12, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Disagree

In addition I think River has been resolved and ended. Also we've basically been told there was another version of the person we know as the Doctor somewhere in his timeline, and it's some sort of Bizarro World Doctor. Also, and this moves more into theory than what we've actually been told, but Clara saw all of the versions in the Doctor's timeline. That's the eleven and the mystery figure. Throw in Handy Doctor to be number 13 and I think we're out of regenerations. Until they make something up obviously. --Laserbeak ☎ 13:31, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Lots of things were resolved. The Trenzalore prophecy was fulfilled, Clara's mystery was solved, and the Doctor's greatest secret was revealed. That's quite a lot for one episode. Ensephylon ☎ 07:28, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The trenzelore prophecy was not fulfilled. The Doctor did not reveal his name and silence did not fall. Moffat left us hanging on that one...again. The Doctor's greatest secret is his name and it was not revealed, not to any of the characters. River already knew it at this point, and she did not reveal it either. Moffat lied...again. As I said, the only thing resolved was Clara's secret. Also, the River Song arc was not resolved either. How did the Doctor see her? How was she still communicating when Clara was torn to bits? "Spoilers" that's how. Whosethebestwho ☎ 08:50, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the prophecy was not fulfilled. Dorium said that Trenzalore was a place "no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer," yet the Doctor failed to answer the question when the Intelligence demanded the answer. I think that this quality of forced truthfulness may have some role in the Doctor's last battle on Trenzalore. If so, that is one heck of a set up for something down the line (presuming the Doctor's seeing it hasn't changed the outcome). However, I don't think the title "The Name of "the Doctor" is as misleading as you might think. The Doctor's secret is the Doctor unworthy of the name of "The Doctor". By interweaving the various Doctors, Moffat is establishing what name "the Doctor" means: compassion, saving people, love, making them better. In doing so, he may be setting up Hurt's Doctor as the antithesis of those qualities. Memnarc ☎ 10:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

No, the prophecy was fulfilled. "Silence will/must fall when the Question is asked" is not a part of the prophecy, it's the core belief of the Silence, and it was already explained in "The Wedding Of River Song" as referring to the Doctor's "silence" which the Silence wants to ensure will fall when the Question is asked by killing the Doctor before he reaches Trenzalore (because if he is dead, then the Question can only answered with his silence, since he won't be able to answer it). The actual prophecy is "on the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, where no living creatue can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked; a question that must never, ever be answered." There is no mention of silence "falling" in that prophecy, and thus "silence will fall" is not something that has to be fulfilled. If anything, "silence will fall" is the Silence's response to the original prophecy. They know that the Question can never be answered on Trenzalore, so what do they do to make sure it won't be? They kill the Doctor before he gets there, so that when the Question is asked, there will be only silence. Furthermore, the Doctor outright stated that his real name doesn't matter, and that it isn't his "greatest secret." His "greatest secret" is the not-Doctor played by John Hurt, as he is the Doctor that went against the very meaning of his chosen name; his "promise." As for the Doctor being able to see River, the Doctor is a low-level telepath so it isn't very hard to believe that he was merely "picking up" on the psychic conversation that Clara was actively having right in front of him, and River was still connected at the end because Clara was still alive. That's why she said "if Clara's dead, how can I still be here?" Well the simple answer is because she isn't dead, which is why the Doctor was able to save her. Ensephylon ☎ 15:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Everything you said is pure speculation. The Silence is a religious order. they were not in the episode. As far as we know there is no connection between them and The Great Intelligence (at least none has been seen yet). Also, we don't know how the doctor was able to see River Song. All she said as "spoilers." That means we will probably find out later on. Basically, the only point to this episode was to lead in to the the 50th Anniversary Special. I had suspected as much, but watched it anyway. It wasn't a bad episode in its own right, it just did not live up to the promises of its producer, and that is where my disappointment lies. Whosethebestwho ☎ 03:22, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

The stuff about the Silence wanting to prevent the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore isn't speculation. It's confirmed in "The Wedding of River Song." They believe that silence must fall when the Question is asked on Trenzalore; that it is absolutely imperative that the Doctor never makes it there, and they intend to ensure that outcome by killing him. This is what Series 6 was all about. Whether or not they knew that the Great Intelligence specifically would be the one to ask the Question is debatable, but the prophecy did say that the Question must never be answered. The Silence must have taken that warning to heart, seeing as how they built up an entire religion around it. So either way, whether they know about the GI's involvement or not, it doesn't matter, because their ultimate goal is to kill the Doctor before he gets to Trenzalore in order to make sure that his silence falls when the Question is asked, and thus it will remain unanswered as the prophecy demands. Furthermore, it is not speculation that John Hurt is what the Doctor's secret refers to. He said it outright in the episode: "My name, my real name, that's not the point... he's my secret," which is perfectly in line with what Moffat said would be revealed in the episode (the Doctor's greatest secret). The other two things may not be confirmed, but I'd say they're pretty likely considering that a) we do know for a fact that the Doctor is telepathic, and b) Clara turned out to be alive at the end of the episode (albeit within the Doctor's time tunnel), and River's statement implied that her connection was predicated upon Clara being alive. Since she was, in fact, alive, the persistent connection is justified. Ensephylon ☎ 03:41, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You are correct about Hurt's doctor (but not "the doctor") being the greatest secret. However you are not correct about the silence. The reason the silence wanted to kill the doctor is because THEY would fall when the question was answered. We did not see the fall and we did not see the question answered. It does happen at trenzalore and that might well be what the huge battle was over (though this is just speculation on my part), but we did not see the question get answered and we did not see the fall of the silence. Those are still unresolved issues. The only issue resolved in this episode was the "impossible girl." Whosethebestwho ☎ 04:46, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Rewatch "The Wedding of River Song". You may pick up on these two explanations:

Dorium: On the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered.

Doctor: Silence will fall when the question is asked.

Dorium: Silence must fall would be a better translation. The Silence are determined the question will never be answered. That the Doctor will never reach Trenzalore.

This proves that the Silence's ultimate goal is to kill the Doctor and to prevent him from reaching Trenzalore and answering the Question.

Churchill: But what was the question? Why did it mean your death?

Doctor: Suppose there was a man who knew a secret. A terrible, dangerous secret that must never be told. How would you erase that secret from the world? Destroy it forever, before it can be spoken.

Churchill: If I had to, I'd destroy the man.

Doctor: And silence would fall. All the times I've heard those words, I never realised it was my silence, my death. The Doctor will fall.

This quote proves that "silence must fall" does indeed refer to the Doctor's silence, which, if he is killed before he gets to Trenzalore, will fall in response to the Question when it is asked, because he will be dead and unable to answer it. The Silence will have succeeded in their goal. Now, I've provided quotes from the show itself to back up what I'm saying. If anything is speculation, it's your assertion that "silence will fall" refers to the defeat of the religious order, which is in no way supported by the show. And lastly, we did see the fulfillment of the prophecy. Eleven and Clara fell onto Trenzalore when the Doctor turned off the antigrav system (when Clara says "how do we get down; do we jump?", the Doctor explicitly corrects her by saying, "no, we fall.") The Question (Doctor Who?) was answered by River. Just because we didn't hear the answer doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Ensephylon ☎ 05:19, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ensephylon: That quote doesn't prove that "silence must fall" refers to the Doctor's silence. What it proves is that the Doctor thinks that's what it refers to. He may be right, of course, but quoting him doesn't (& can't) prove he is. I could quote Neville Chamberlain saying that Hitler's signature on a piece of paper meant "peace in our time" but that doesn't prove it did mean peace; quite notoriously, it meant nothing of the kind.

It's the quote from Dorium that's the better evidence, here. At the very least, it shows that the Doctor's silence is what the Silence intend. --89.240.249.124^{talk to me} 07:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point, but the dialogue is there for a reason. The Doctor is explaining the situation that the Silence has put him in to Churchill (consider him an audience surrogate in this instance). Churchill wanted to know why the Question meant the Doctor had to die, and the Doctor outlined the Silence's logic for him. If there was a man (the Doctor) who knew a dangerous secret (the answer to the Question), how would you erase that secret from the world before it could be spoken? You'd kill him (by a lakeside), and, as the Doctor explains, silence would fall. The man's silence. Plus, the Doctor has come to a realization after being told what the Question is by Dorium. He may have never realized what those words meant before, but now that he knows what the Question is and that the Silence want him dead so that he can't answer it, he understands the meaning of the phrase. "Silence must fall when the Question is asked," and he knows that the Silence want him dead so that he cannot answer the Question. The logical conclusion is that the silence that must fall is his own; that he must be dead by the time the Question is asked. Ensephylon ☎ 08:12, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You're right enough about the purpose of the dialogue & it does put the situation across clearly for anyone who's not quite got the message by that stage. It's just that Dorium's statement is the better evidence, even if it's not the clearer exposition -- a bit like witness testimony that's followed by a lawyer explaining to the jury what the testimony means. --89.240.249.124^{talk to me} 10:05, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry but you are both wrong. Dorium said, "when no living creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked." Guess what? The Doctor failed to answer. Furthermore the Doctor was not silent. he was pleading with GI the whole time. Finally, he did not die. None of the interpretations you have speculated on have been seen. The prophecy has not been resolved. That being said, I will grant the "fall of the eleventh" could refer to the doctor falling to trenzelore. It could also refer to his fall at the major battle that the GI alluded to. Frankly, it is the former, then Moffat needs to be fired,but that's just my opnion. Either way, the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Whosethebestwho ☎ 09:45, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot of discussion about the "fail to answer" clause, but no one is talking about the restriction "living" placed on the subject of both "can speak" and "can fail to answer." In The Name of the Doctor (TV story), River ended up (apparently) speaking the Doctor's name, and she's supposedly a data echo saved in the Library (Forest of the Dead (TV story)), not a "living creature."98.180.49.69^{talk to me} 18:29, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's in my slowly progressing response to many arguments made on this thread. I will acknowledge that I hadn't considered the fact that River would hardly count as a living being that's certainly interesting, thank you.DCT ☎ 12:36, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

98 has spotted something that's likely to be significant. It'd certainly explain why Moffat made River's appearance in this episode her first (&, so far, only) post mortem appearance. All her other appearances since Forest of the Dead have been earlier in her timeline. It would have been easy for Moffat to make this one the same, yet he chose to make it later in her timeline. --2.101.63.75^{talk to me} 18:20, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd go that far. That factor is more easily explained by the fact in enables River to say the Doctor's name, and thus move the plot forward, without anyone having to hear it.DCT ☎ 15:23, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I ought to point out that we don't actually know she did say his name. The Doctor said that that was how the TARDIS could be made to open & River said that she'd said his name -- but nobody else heard her do so & both of them are well known to lie. We know that River does know the Doctor's name but we also know that the TARDIS will cooperate with her anyway (as in Let's Kill Hitler, when River was surprised that the TARDIS helped her). Moffat has left plenty of room for doubt & he could turn round later on & tell us River didn't say the Doctor's name. --2.101.62.165^{talk to me} 16:20, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Who is River supposed to be lying to? She was answering the Doctor's question but she genuinely didn't believe he could hear her. Therefore her response is basically an aside. She said it for our benefit but not with the awareness of our presence. Lying for our benefit is a fourth wall violation and there's no evidence of that.DCT ☎ 14:23, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

River knew Clara could hear her & had been relaying what she said to the Doctor. That was how they found the secret entrance, earlier on. --2.96.16.231^{talk to me} 15:22, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

"Furthermore the Doctor was not silent": He was silent on the thing that mattered. The word "silent" is very often used to mean something other than a literal lack of sound, or even of speech. He kept silent about his name by babbling away about something else. As you say, "The Doctor failed to answer."

Anyway, what Dorium's words showed was, as I said, that the Doctor's silence is what the Silence intended. It was why they tried to kill him. They failed to put their intention into effect but that doesn't change the fact that it was their intention.

On the "fall of the eleventh": Yes, it could refer to the Doctor falling to Trenzalore. Like you, though, I think that would be too much of a cheat -- far too much! It could also refer to his death. But it could mean something else: a moral fall, a fall from dignity, &c. There's no shortage of possible meanings.

The thing hasn't been resolved. The episode ended with "To be continued", so we've no excuse for not knowing it ain't over yet. It could be resolved (for all we currently know) by the prophecy being falsified, rather than fulfilled. (I was 89 earlier.) --2.96.29.191^{talk to me} 10:58, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

i thought it could possibly be taken from the epoisode that the prophecy will be fullfilled at the actuall battle of trenzalore when the doctor dies. obviously we dpont know who is was fighting or the circumstances of his death. and in the end even though the river song arc seem to be finished she still needs to be told his name......and i know !! dismisssed his names importance but 10 sure did make a big deal about it.....it isnt finished with and i think the prophency will be revisited at the return to trenzalore.

maybe next series we will see 'the fall of the 11th ' at trenzalore he will fight in a batttle and loose the prophecy will be fullfilled and he will die...this causes the emergence of the Hurt doctor and the Change in doctor who that moffat has been talking about87.83.10.218^{talk to me} 09:47, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

"...at the fall of the Eleventh..." I think the lines, "So, how do we get down there? Jump?", "Don't be silly. We fall," were written as such explicitly to connect to the "fall" in the prophecy. Ancient prophecies can easily make big deals about the subtlest of details. And before someone says that, counting Hurt, Smith is the 12th, I think "the Eleventh" means the "11th Doctor", meaning only those who go by the name "the Doctor", meaning not Hurt, who "broke the promise" of the name "Doctor". —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 23:33, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

One thing that I thought after watching this was that "I'm in my own time line, and it's collapsing in on itself." could mean that A) John Hurt might be a pre-First Doctor (body age seems unrelated to length of existence - borne out in a number of regenerations), and B) that this might cause the entirety of the series to be relegated to alternate timeline, and allow the series to start over from scratch (alleviating the pressure of running out of regenerations in the process.... MOFFAT!!!!)

Conversation break

I agree that the Silence prophesy seems to be fulfilled, but I also share the confusion that River evidently was called post-"death", but how could Vastra have possibly pulled that off. Send a message to the library and communicate with a digital personality? Maybe. Accomplish the soporific and/or otherwise contact her in her "dreams"? Much more difficult. Much less the fact that getting a message to Clara was a matter of a couple of hundred years on one planet, but getting a time-sensitive message to River called for unknown thousands of years and planets or galaxies away... Whatever those "spoilers" are, they are pretty hardcore. (Also, on the matter of River being a continuing recurring character, we also have not seen her meet the Doctor for the first time - remember that their time lines run opposite, making her first meeting his last - much less the fact that technically she has been "dead" since the first time we saw her.)

Moffat is a mad genius, and he never ceases to amaze. He blew my mind again with The Name of the Doctor, and I'm sure that there is something even more mind blowing on the horizon.

Also, I would love to see a collection of all the poetry used in these episodes, especially since the Whisper Men were spouting stuff all over the place...50.136.57.243^{talk to me} 07:49, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

50, "River ... we also have not seen her meet the Doctor for the first time": We probably have. We saw her as a young girl (played by Sydney Wade) in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon & that seems likely to have been their first meeting in her timeline. We've also seen, in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, their first meeting in his timeline. (I was 89 & then 2 earlier.) --78.146.179.140^{talk to me} 09:57, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

To expand on 89/2/78's response, we've also seen the Alex Kingston River's first meeting with the Doctor, when she regenerated. River said they meet back to front, but I think that stopped being the case by Let's Kill Hitler. However, that doesn't mean she can't reappear at some point for a random adventure with the Doctor. Shambala108 ☎ 16:00, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

I hope we see more of River Song. She's Moffat's creation so we know he likes writing for her. But he also likes exploring new ideas and characters so The Name of the Doctor (TV story) might have been intended to be her swan song. I hope not though as I think she brings out a great, playful, flirty side of the Doctor.

@50, I have seen all of the Whispermen's verses written out somewhere but I'm not sure it was on this wiki. It could be TV.com or another site that has recaps.

Personally, I don't think that the prophecy has been fulfilled. There are too many loose ends, too many pieces that don't fit. I think when (if) it is fulfilled, it will drop like an anvil, it won't be in question. For example, why would the Silence want to avoid that moment so bad that they went to such great lengths to try to kill off the Doctor? They don't seem to be at all affected by events in The Name of the Doctor. Why did the Silence want to blow up the TARDIS, creating cracks in the entire universe? And if it wasn't the Silence, who was it?

I think Moffat can sometimes just rewrite history, create direct lines between events and people that seem unconnected, raise more questions than he answers. But when his story arcs do come to an end (like the Doctor's apparent death, like who is Melody Pond and what happened to her), they are resolved! Fans may not like the resolution, they might find it implausible. But it is over and done with. He moves on. I don't think we have reached The Fall of the Eleventh and I think that it will happen whenever the Doctor reaches his next regeneration. Badwolff ☎ 19:26, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Under that reasoning the Series 5 story line is over and we are not going to find out why the TARDIS exploded though we'd think it a very important issue. I don't think the fall of the eleventh has anything to do with the regeneration of the current Doctor. It's too obvious and it runs the risk of the audience getting fed up of waiting or Stephen Moffat going before Matt Smith does or numerous other possibilities that could scupper the story because Moffat is hinging it on other people's decisions. It's more or at least as likely that the fall of the eleventh, at least in our universe, means the end of November and the question will be asked at the 50th Anniversary whether Matt Smith is leaving or not.DCT ☎ 14:27, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well, this is just me, but I truly believe that at Trenzalore, The Doctor answered and spoke truthfully. He just did not answer the Question posed to him three times by the GI directly. Instead, he truthfully pleaded to have his friends left alone. It is still an answer and we have seen SM split hairs before.Boss MD ☎ 02:21, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

And even then, the Question was asked at Trenzalore, just as the prophecy foretold. Wouldn't going to Trenzalore twice to do the same thing be redundant? Ensephylon ☎ 05:18, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

You are right that "Let's Kill Hitler" marked their first meeting, but I don't think River would have gotten away with another "Spoilers..." unless there was still more to reveal of her time line. As for the prophesy being fulfilled or not, the Doctor has rewritten lots of events, so it is possible that he has changed the timeline enough that this is what the fulfillment looks like. On the other hand, I can totally see Moffat pull a double entendre with the "fall of the eleventh" also meaning the end of November.

Ultimately, though, I have to agree with Badwolff that when Moffat wants something finished, there is no question. All these issues right now just mean he isn't finished yet. I can't wait for November...Doram baramour ☎ 05:51, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

With recent cast developments, I see a return to Trenzalore for this epic battle that the Doctor was involved in (so much for light-hearted Christmas specials). The "question being asked that must be answered truthfully" only occurred at the moment of the Fall of the Eleventh. And I don't think we saw that in The Name of the Doctor. I understand that you disagree. That's fine by me. Just sharing my opinion. Badwolff ☎ 19:35, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the recent cast developments aren't too surprising given Matt Smith's recent evasiveness about anything past Christmas. I reference to this they simply add more to suspicions I've developed recently but don't really want to voice before the 50th. My reasons for doubting the meaning of The Fall Of The Eleventh are touched on elsewhere and also the subject of a response to earlier statements in this thread that I'm slowly working on.DCT ☎ 12:07, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

We dont know what exactly the Silence were trying to avoid, only that the Prophecy said the question should never be answered. GI asks the question in order to get into the Tomb, and gain his revenge on the Doctor. Vastra explains that because The Doctor has saved so many people, GI rewriting his history would be catastrophic. SO Clara does the Impossible, and avoids the catastrophe. If this is the catastrophe the Silence were unkowingly trying to avoid, then the Prophecy seems to have been dealt with. And while you may feel cheated that we did not hear the answer to the Question, it was Clara doing the Impossible who actually defeated the Prophecy, not the Doctor not answering the Question.And Clara & The Doctor are still on Trenzalore, so there is room for more on the Prophecy as well.Phil Stone ☎ 07:52, June 3, 2013 (UTC)