Howling:Eleventh is Leaving

The Howling → Eleventh is Leaving

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Matt Smith is leaving. Opinions? - User:StevieGLiverpool

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OK, the boring stuff out of the way, I think it's about time. One of the things I like best about the show is the constant change in Doctor/companions. As much as I like the Fourth Doctor and Third Doctors, by the end of their runs I was ready for someone new.

My only concern is who will Moffat choose for the next Doctor. I'd prefer it be someone in their thirties or forties, and preferably not a major star like Daniel Radcliffe, for example, whose name has apparently come up before. Shambala108 ☎ 23:24, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

I second that. We've had some younger Doctors, now time to switch it up a bit with somebody older. Not too old (I don't think somebody around 1 or 3's age would work as well in the show as it is now), but enough to give some contrast. Also, I like it when they don't choose somebody overly well-known. If they get Daniel Radcliffe in, sorry, but I won't be able to see him as anyone other than Harry Potter. But it's deffinitely time to change. I just hope they don't announce when beforehand, so we can have some surprise! Imamadmad (Contact me) 01:32, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I thought I had read that he signed through 2014. I never knew if that meant inclusively or not. Apparently, now we know! Yes, I too, would really struggle seeing Radcliffe as The Doctor.Boss MD ☎ 01:53, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

The last time they decided to look for someone older, they ended up choosing Matt Smith! Other things being equal, older -- but not too much older -- would be a good idea. I also agree that it ought to be someone not closely identified with another role. That wouldn't necessarily mean avoiding "big names", only avoiding anyone who's known primarily for a single character.

This time, it looks as if we'll get a regeneration with a companion who already knows about it, since Clara has seen the Doctor's various incarnations & she's not likely to leave after only half a series. Unless there's another new companion (possible, if additional to Clara), Moffat will have managed to avoid the "Are you really the Doctor?" routine entirely. If there were a new (second) companion, it could be left to Clara to do most of the explaining -- especially if regeneration trauma puts the Doctor out of action for a while. That might be quite fun. --89.241.74.205^{talk to me} 02:19, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Although I'm REALLY sad about Matt Smith leaving (11 is my Doctor), I am interested to see who they cast next. Of course Benedict Cumberbatch crossed my mind first, but given how menacing he managed to be in the new Star Trek, I think he might make a better Master. If they were to go older, I think David Thewlis would make an interesting choice. Memnarc ☎ 02:30, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

You never know, Moffat might get really adventurous & cast a woman. Any good ideas for that eventuality? --89.241.74.205^{talk to me} 02:45, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Moffat did write the Curse of Fatal Death, and later used references from that in his later episodes. And whilst I trust his judgement, at least casting-wise, I don't think others would be ready for it, and it might seem like a bit of a gimmick for publicity, as would casting "known" actors. If I could decide right now, I'd have Damien Maloney from Being Human, but I saw a clip of the rumoured Ben Daniels, and all I could remember thinking was "Oh, he's GOOD!" Either way, both are older than Matt Smith, which is really the only way go. If we keep getting younger, it'll start getting weird. Gallifrey102 ☎ 13:31, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Gallifrey102: What do you mean "start getting weird"?

More seriously, if Moffat (or his successors) were to wait until "others would be ready for it", casting a woman will never happen. Yes, that or casting "known" actors might seem like a bit of a gimmick but, if the actor (of either sex) is good, that'd be forgotten very quickly. --89.240.253.132^{talk to me} 14:03, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well, last night, I felt like someone had punched me in the gut. Just two weeks ago, the media reported (in detail) how Smith had signed on for Series 8 and he even discussed the production schedule and when filming would likely begin. So, either:

a) The whole article was fabricated by the reporter,

b) Smith intentionally was misleading people, or

c) Smith changed his mind at the last minute, before his contract was signed.

None of these options are great. But I don't know how that article from mid-May can just be explained away. I know I certainly used it to defend my position against people who were predicting a regeneration in the near future. I just feel like the rug was pulled out from under viewers and it's remarkable to me how cheerful Steven Moffat and Jenna are, like it wasn't a surprise to them at all. That might be understandable if it just wasn't for that damn article! How could Smith go on the record and say all of that?

As for future Doctors, I'd love for Felicia Day to be cast. She's got geek cred, she can act, she's a redhead, in the right age range...the only negative is that I don't know if Moffat would hire an American to play The Doctor. Badwolff ☎ 19:04, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

As a girl geek though, the prospects of Day's Doctor, Clara and River Song sharing a few scenes gives me goosebumps.

And think of what Moffat has already done...he's had a married couple as Companions, had them conceive a baby on the TARDIS (yes, sex on the TARDIS!), killed the Doctor (apparently), then had the Doctor get married and rewrote history to place echoes of Clara in the storylines of every previous incarnation. Could any of these plotlines been foreseen in 2009? I don't think so.

Moffat is all about his curiosity taking the show to new places. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that whoever is cast as the next Doctor will be a surprise. Could be someone old, young, black, white, Asian, man, woman, straight, gay, I think he is open to considering all of these possibilities with the priority of NOT what has been done in the past but what can be the best impetus for storytelling in future series. Moffat isn't a Doctor Who preservationist, he is not conservative, protecting the canon. Yes, he's brought back some old enemies from the past but he is chomping at the bit to create new stories, new characters, not resolve old loose ends from the past. He'll make use of the Classic Who material if it helps him to tell the story he wants to tell. I definitely don't believe he feels duty-bound to uphold aspects of the Doctor Who Universe that would limit where he wants to take it. Badwolff ☎ 19:04, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Moffat started by flagging up the possibility of a female Doctor. RTD left it to Moffat to write the Eleventh's scene at the end of The End of Time & he included the "I'm a girl!" bit. Moffat also approved the reference in The Doctor's Wife to the Corsair having been female a couple of times (if he'd not approved it, it wouldn't have been there). That doesn't mean he'll actually go for a female Doctor but he has made sure that he could, if he wanted to.

What matters most isn't "old, young, black, white, Asian, man, woman, straight, gay". What really matters is having the ability to project the presence of a Time Lord who's now well over a thousand years old & who has seen & participated in so much, both terrible & wonderful. Despite his (lack of) age, Matt Smith could. That, I assume, is one of the reasons he was cast when the showrunners had initially decided they wanted to go for someone older. It's not just us that Moffat & co might surprise -- they could surprise themselves, too.

Like Badwolff, I "don't believe he feels duty-bound to uphold aspects of the Doctor Who Universe that would limit where he wants to take it" & I don't think he ought to feel duty-bound to do that. What he ought to feel duty-bound to do is to cast someone who -- even if in unexpected & unprecedented ways -- is credible as the Doctor. --89.241.77.88^{talk to me} 19:34, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Badwolff, "the prospects of Day's Doctor, Clara and River Song sharing a few scenes": Based on the personality of the character, I'd think River could cope with a female Doctor (that one or another) without any difficulty -- once the production crew could get Alex Kingston to stop laughing! I reckon Alex would like the idea but would also find it hilariously funny. --89.241.77.88^{talk to me} 19:49, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I agree (once again) with all you say, @89. It's just over the past 24 hours, I've visited other DW forums and news sites with stories about this and I find it humorous how absolutely horrified many commentators are by the mere suggestion of a female Doctor. Truthfully, I don't think it's going to happen. But the fact that the possibility was even being considered sent some folks into the stratosphere...if they were cartoon characters, they'd have red faces and smoke coming out of their ears. I think Moffat must find this extreme reaction terribly amusing which is why some fans dislike him, the fact that he is not afraid to play around with people's expectations.

But Moffat isn't sadistic and while I think he'll have a very open mind on actors up for consideration, I don't think he will drag out the decision-making. He must have had, in the back of his mind, candidates in mind for the character for years now (just as a thought exercise) and I'm guessing we'll know around July who has been cast as the next Doctor. The casting of Smith was done months and months ahead of time and I think there will be an even shorter lag time between Smith quitting and casting the next Doctor than there was between Tennant quitting and Smith getting cast.

I see what you mean by casting an "old soul". It's a tough part to cast because they need someone who can have that childlikeness and manic energy but also the weariness of a being who has lived a long life, lost people he loved and fought battles. Those are almost contradictory qualities to try to simultaneously embody and I can't even imagine what the audition process is like for such a unique part. Badwolff ☎ 19:54, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, @89! I think some folks (okay, guys) would focus on the sexual aspects of this kind of encounter. But that's not it, it would just be amazing material for Kingston to play, such a strong personality who discovers her beloved husband is now a woman, knowing that she still embodies every aspect that she fell in love with. I also think Kingston, who can be so intense in her portrayal of River, would find the whole situation very amusing. Regardless of whether Moffat casts a man or woman, they need to bring River back just to see her trying to adjust to a new regeneration of her husband. I mean, the comedy just writes itself. Badwolff ☎ 20:00, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think having a female Doctor would phase River much. I mean, she did spend a lot of time around the 51st century, which we all know is when Jack's from. I think it would be harder to calm the viewers. Personally, I would find it weird to have the Doctor cast as anyone other than a British male. If nothing else, what pronouns would we use when referring to the Doctor in general if we were to have a female incarnation? But I really wouldn't be surprised if Moffat wants to change things up a bit. But still, whoever they are, please let them be British. Preferably with a cool accent. Doctor Who just wouldn't be the same with somebody not British in the main role. Imamadmad (Contact me) 21:00, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Imamadmad, "Preferably with a cool accent": Choose the wrong British accent & you could mislead people. There's a London (in fact Cockney) accent that sounds Australian -- because that's where the Australian accent originated.

Badwolff, "if they were cartoon characters, they'd have red faces and smoke coming out of their ears": Are you sure they don't have those anyway?

It was partly mischief -- knowing the way some people would react -- that led me to point out the possibility that Moffat might cast a woman. Only partly, though. As a male who's been a DW fan since the early evening of 23 November 1963, I'd be entirely happy to see a female Doctor, provided she was good in the role. I'd far, far rather watch a good female Doctor than a mediocre male one. --89.241.77.88^{talk to me} 21:33, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

I hope that Eleven goes out in a heroic way like Five did.

Truthfully, I expect that another white, male Brit will be picked. But I love to think about the "What if" questions...how would Doctor Who change if the Doctor was a woman? Or a teenager? Or Pakistani? Or blind? Or a nonhumanoid species? How would that impact his relationships with others? Or how he saw his Mission in life?

Or would these things not be affected at all by his physical form? Does his character transcend these personal characteristics? Viewers know why The Doctor is British (because it's a British show) but what if The Doctor had a reason for assuming a British identity? I know most people want to see space adventures on Saturday night but I think these are interesting questions to explore.

And I can't help but push people's buttons regarding casting of the Twelfth because, like the Tenth on the Sycorax ship, I can't resist pressing big red buttons! People are so easily upset just at the suggestion, as if talking about something was going to make it happen.

P.S. I'm not up on Classic Who but didn't the Fifth die because...bat's milk? That seems like a ready made punchline. Badwolff ☎ 22:02, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

it wont happens but i would love to see Robert carlyle play the Doctor, a little bit like how he played Dr. rush in Stargate universe. 87.83.10.218^{talk to me} 12:48, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Badwolff As far as I remember, Five gave the only vial of antidote (bat's milk) for some poison or other to his companion, opting instead to let himself regenerate (like 10 taking the radiation blast to save Wilf). As for who 12 will be, I'll only shout "OBJECTION!" if they're not British. And for my opinion on a female Doctor, probably few if any of you will know about and get this, but I'm still waiting for SqueakAnon (YouTube) to make a full radio-style series for the Professor and Dusk. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 16:28, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

BioniclesaurKing4t2: You are correct about the Fifth Doctor. (The "some poison or other" was raw spectrox.) --2.101.63.75^{talk to me} 16:51, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've been here so forgive me if I mess up this thread by trying to respond to it. The only thing I absolutely remember how to do is sign my posts. At least, I think I do.

Anyway, I'm excited by the prospect of a new Doctor. I was ok with Matt Smith, but he is definitely my least favorite of the new three Doctors. I always kind of felt like Matt Smith, while certainly making 11 his own, was played very much as a "sequel" Doctor to David Tennant. They share some similarities in personality and they feel more "alike" to me than 9 and 10 ever did. Still, it's just my perspective and opinion in the long run.

Matt Smith is a great Doctor and he's got tons of energy, but I hope the next Doctor is a bit more laid back. 10 had the same manic energy that 11 does, but he had moments of calm, from his demeanor to his actions. 11 seems to be permanently stuck in hyperdrive, and so I hope the next Doctor pulls that back a bit.

I don't know who I'd want cast, but I hope it's someone kind of unknown so that they don't already have a name attached to them. That's always my preference with iconic characters, though, and I can certainly live with it if it's not. I'd prefer the Doctor not to be a woman, but I could get over that too. Mostly I'm just excited about where the series will go from here. Vohn exel ☎ 05:04, June 7, 2013 (UTC)Vohn Exel

I'm watching Doctor Who reruns on BBCA (which jumps all about the six series) and I've been surprised to find myself growing to really dislike the Tenth Doctor. He is getting on my nerves. I think the Eleventh puts all of his weirdness out there for you to see, he's a quirky guy who moves in an odd way, can swing from being distant to affectionate. He's given him a unique personality. But with the Tenth? It seems like Tennant (or Davies, I'm not sure) were really trying to portray as a "the hero", from Tennant's good looks to his seeming normalcy (at least until the 2008-2010 specials when he became morbid and dark).

It seems like people are always telling the Eleventh that he is an odd duck. But people were only warned that the Tenth was "dangerous" (oooh, sexy). Yes, the Tenth had his excitable and wacky moments but, truthfully, when he was placed in a human society, he didn't immediately stick out as being different except for being good-looking and very smart. Even his clothing didn't really stick out as unusual.

And I'm seeing all kinds of negative qualities: arrogance, often a stoicism and a lack of empathy even a bit of narcissism. Yeah, he was recovering from the scars of the Time War but the Eleventh is, by contrast, at times very emotionally vulnerable and almost needy for human company. With the Tenth, you got the feeling that he needed people around so he didn't turn to the dark side but I just watched Series 2 and starting in on Series 3 and he pretty quickly moved on from Rose (who was supposed to be his great love). A minute after he said good-bye to her, he was off on an adventure with The Runaway Bride. Compare that to the Eleventh who went into a depressed isolation (and I'm guessing it lasted a long time) when he lost Amy and Rory.

This has really surprised me because the first Doctor I watched on TV was Tennant's Tenth. But I think the Eleventh is unfairly disparaged in comparison to the Tenth. I don't think The Doctor should be a good-looking hero, shouldn't ever be considered a heart-throb. The Doctor should be weird, like Sherlock Holmes. I hope Moffat doesn't bend to the wishes of some fans who want some hunky guy as The Doctor. Badwolff ☎ 21:35, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

My first Doctor was 10 too, and though he has been displaced on my favorites list by about 6 or 7 other Doctors, I still think that Tennant, as an actor, did a fine job with the arguably terrible material he was often given. On the other hand, I find that Matt Smith does not have the acting experience to adequately convey the complexity of the Doctor. When I watch the other Doctors, I feel like I'm watching the Doctor, from 1 all the way down to 10 (except 8, haven't seen him yet). When I watch 11, I see an actor playing the Doctor. It's a subtle difference that Smith hasn't achieved, in my opinion. Shambala108 ☎ 02:33, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Here are my top six Doctors:

6. McCoy

5. Smith

4. Davison

3. Eccleston

2. Tom Baker

1. Tennant

Other than that, I hope that the 11th Doctor's regeneration will be like the 5th's!! The 11th Doctor has to go out in a heroic scene, not a blaze of glory. Hopefully not for a good while to come. <-- (user/date???)

Regarding the gender of the next Doctor. This is a bit beside the point, since it is thoroughly established that a) Timelords can switch gender and b) Moffat can come up with twenty ways to justify anything... but if they do decide to go that route, it's worth pointing out that River poured all of 'her' regenerations into the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler. Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 17:40, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

"it's worth pointing out that River poured all of 'her' regenerations into the Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler": It isn't worth pointing out, because she didn't. She used them to heal him. They were used, so nobody has them any longer. That was made abundantly clear in the episode. --2.96.28.29^{talk to me} 18:22, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

In the run-up to that episode, Moffat mentioned that they were going to address the number of regenerations the Doctor had left 'in a tongue-in-cheek fashion'. Pun aside, it tells me that Moffat considered the common understanding of the Doctor's regenerations to have been in play during the episode. Beyond that, all that was explicitly addressed was that River had lost her ability to regenerate. Doesn't really matter, though, whether she transferred actual regenerations to him. It's just a matter of whether the evil twinkle in Moffat's eyes will use the trope that the femaleness of the regeneration energy she spent caused a gender flip in his next regeneration.Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 21:58, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

"In the run-up to that episode, Moffat mentioned that they were going to address the number of regenerations the Doctor had left 'in a tongue-in-cheek fashion'.": And they did exactly that -- in The Sarah Jane Adventures story Death of the Doctor. Moffat said "a friend" was going to address the subject. That friend was RTD &, if you watch the SJA story, you'll see that it fits the "tongue-in-cheek" description, which Let's Kill Hitler certainly does not.

The point you're missing is this: If regenerations could be transferred & the Doctor had gained usable regenerations from River, what kind of person would the Doctor have to be not to transfer those usable regenerations back to River?

It's not about the regeneration limit, it's about whether the Doctor is a prime ess-aitch-one-tee. If he could have returned even some regenerations back to River but chose not to, he is exactly that. If he couldn't have returned any, he isn't; he was simply stuck with what she'd done. (I was 2 earlier.) --89.240.241.209^{talk to me} 00:07, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Again, I'm mostly just speculating on whether Moffat will use her energy as the reason for destabilizing his gender. But since you mention it: 1) the Doctor knew she wouldn't/couldn't/doesn't regenerate beyond her River form; 2) When she died, she forbade him from changing her timeline (not that regeneration could have saved her, so it would have been a wasted gesture); and 3) she reamed him for giving even a little back in Angels Take Manhattan. It makes complete sense to me in the context of marriage. Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 02:08, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

It make sense from a totally selfish point of view, certainly. --89.240.241.209^{talk to me} 03:13, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

It would be great if after his regeneration, the new Doctor was focused on finally being ginger to the point of not commenting upon being a woman.

And if Daniel Radcliff got the role, it would be amusing if only aliens commented on his likeness to Harry Potter.

I don't have enough bredth of knowledge of current UK actors to make a good suggestion, but in her younger days I think Helen Mirren would have been able to capture the youth and the old soul.Phil Stone ☎ 04:07, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

In an interview I saw, Alex Kingston was asked about how she'd cope with a female Doctor. As she started to answer, someone interrupted to suggest Dame Helen Mirren. Alex's response was, "I don't think I could kiss her!" The impression I got was that she meant Dame Helen would be a bit too intimidating. (Apart from anything else, she's played the Queen!) I'm afraid I can't remember which site had that interview but it's presumably fairly recent & ought still to be out there somewhere. Alex (unsurprisingly) gave very little information away, beyond saying that Matt Smith had discussed his departure with her.

Another who would, at one time, have been able to project the authority of the Doctor, as well as other needed qualities, is Joanna Lumley. I doubt if she could keep up the physical pace, running down corridors &c, now. And, of course, her association with The Curse of Fatal Death would get in the way, too -- probably even more than her age. She's mainly associated with comedy roles, nowadays, but she's a good straight actor, too. What's more, she does herself genuinely have some of the qualities of the Doctor: Remember what she did to the last Government over unjust treatment of the Gurkhas! As I say, I think her time has passed but, again, in her younger days she could have done it & done it well.

Most of the actors (of either sex) of whom I know are now beyond the age when they'd be suitable, so I can't come up with realistic suggestions, either.

The idea of the Doctor being so delighted at finally being ginger as to take almost no notice of a change of sex appeals to me, too. If she'd not played Amy, maybe Karen Gillan would have fitted that scenario. --89.241.69.221^{talk to me} 04:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Some of the casting suggestions are, frankly, ridiculous. I don't mean concerning who would be a GOOD Doctor but more, what kind of actor would take this part. For one thing, I never got the sense that the pay was all that great. They've got a limited budget and a lot of that goes towards production costs. I think they only got someone with Tennant's experience because he was a total DW fanboy and had grown up wanting to play the Doctor.

Secondly, after Eccleston, I'm sure signing on to play the Doctor involves signing a multiple series contract. So, would an established actress like Mirren or many of the other high-profile names being bandied about want to commit themselves to a time-consuming job (at least 28 weeks of filming for 14 episodes plus lots of time promoting show) for a humble salary? I don't think so. If they want to say they contributed to Doctor Who, they'd do a guest star appearance, not commit themselves for half a year's work for several years into the future. It's much more lucrative and prestigious for them to do a couple of movies.

So, what Moffat has to find is an up-and-coming actor with talent or an older actor who is overdue for a boost in their career. I think fans get so caught up with the role of Doctor and how defining it is for an actor (in a positive way) that they overlook how demanding it is to take over this role and how that rules out a lot of actors who already have established and thriving careers. Badwolff ☎ 19:38, June 10, 2013 (UTC)