|
|
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| | | {{ArchCat}} |
| == Article needs renaming ==
| |
| | |
| It's been confirmed that the character will appear in a later episode, so the DAB nature of the title is inaccurate and will prevent users from finding the article on him, especially if the DAB page at [[Brian Williams]] is deleted by those who seem to want this wiki to be hard to navigate. [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:40, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :Disambiguation articles are there to navigate people to the correct article(s). When you search for something they're pretty much the first thing you see. Plus, on most articles it suggests pages that you might have meant when you loaded the article. I don't really think there's an issue tbh. Plus, the Brian Williams in the NSA "Snowglobe 7" came first and there's very little we can do about it.<br>
| |
| :[[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 03:02, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::The page still needs to be disambiguated, even if he appears in a later episode. As this is his first, this is what we go with. '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 03:41, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :::For cases when there's only two people, {{tl|You may}} is more than enough to alleviate the confusion. Often, when you start typing Brian Williams in a link, it'd show the two dabed Brian Williamses. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 11:37, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::::It does seem that the Doctor's wife's Grandfather is going to remain more notable than a one off character in a novel. Perhaps Brian (Dinos on a Spaceship) should be the one listed as Brian Williams and a {{tl|You may}} link could handle the rest. The page for (Snowglobe 7) is barely a blip as it is, clearly Rory's dad is already more interesting.{{Unsigned|AnaxagorasZ}}
| |
| | |
| At a later date, when this character has made multiple appearances, it would certainly be best to give this page preference as I do not doubt it is the page most expect to find at [[Brian Williams]]. There is no urgency to make the move, but I see no reason to delay as links will only have to be changed when the switch is made and they're sure to pile up in the meantime.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 20:05, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :When [[Amy Pond]] first appeared in [[The Eleventh Hour]], the page was named 'Amy Pond' not 'Amy Pond (The Eleventh Hour)'. So I completely agree that this page should be renamed. [[Special:Contributions/86.22.110.143|86.22.110.143]]<sup>[[User talk:86.22.110.143#top|talk to me]]</sup> 12:16, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :: While I'm not completely opposed to the idea of ''maybe'' making this the "prime" Brian Williams page, the Amy argument has nothing to do with anything. Amy has appeared [[Amy Pond - list of appearances|in far more media than just one or two episodes]], including three comic series running at the same time. I don't know of any conflicting Amy Ponds like with [[Brian Williams (Snowglobe 7)]] (which until DOAS' airdate ''was'' the Brian Williams page), so for what purpose would we even ''consider'' requiring an Amy Pond page with the disambiguation term (The Eleventh Hour)? -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 13:27, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :::Conversely, I ''am'' totally opposed to dropping the dab term from the full article name. There's no cause to make an exception to policy in this case. He's not more important than the Snowglobe 7 guy, because core site policy sets all media as of equal weight. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 06:00: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span>
| |
| :::Moreover, it's an ''incredibly'' common name. I'm not entirely convinced there's not another Brian Williams somewhere in some story we've not got around to cataloguing yet. And given that we have two stories in 5 years to use the name Brian Williams, I certainly don't think it's unlikely that there will be another Brian Williams somewhere down the road. One thing people are forgetting in this thread is that we've only got about 30k articles on this wiki, and a lot of those are behind the scenes pages. We've barely begun to scratch the surface of in-universe characters. We use dab term naming as much to futureproof ourselves as to make differentiations that we're sure about. I can't see a situation whereby it'd be good policy to move this to Brian Williams; we're only gonna have to move it back. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 06:10: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| ==Leadworth==
| |
| Where is it established that he is from Leadworth? The only time he has been seen is at Amy and Rory's house (last we heard they are in London), and he was never mentioned, or seen during the adventures set in Leadworth. He is not even present at the wedding, which took place in Leadworth. [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] [[User talk:Geek Mythology|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:28, September 9, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Another victim of the silly Disambiguation policy on this wiki ==
| |
| There are a number of wiki users like myself who don't bother using the search tool and instead just browse to ''tardis.wikia.com/wiki/<search term>''. This is how I get to most pages, and finding that disambiguation pages have been deleted because there's only two or three similarly-named entries is, frankly, a bit rubbish, and makes the wiki very hard to navigate.
| |
| | |
| I'm strongly in favour of either renaming this article to simply [[Brian Williams]], or recreating the disambiguation page. Certainly the article's current title, which includes the name of what will be only the first appearance of the character, is not the way to go. [[User:Ben Paddon|Ben Paddon]] [[User talk:Ben Paddon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:24, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :Yes, our dab policy ''would'' look pretty stupid to someone who doesn't use the search tool. Obviously, though, using your browser's URL field '''isn't in any way a search'''. You should only use that method when you're sure of an article's name. There is absolutely no reasonable expectation that a name as common as "Brian Williams" would have appeared only once in a franchise that's 50 years old and comprised of thousands of unique stories.
| |
| | |
| :In calling our dab policy "stupid", you're not really understanding the challenges of organising information on a franchise that's 50 years old and comprised of thousands of stories. The DWU requires a different approach to naming that ''is'' dependant on using the search tool. If you used the search tool, you'd soon discover that it produces auto suggestions which then reveal the wisdom of the dab policy. Moreover, having the dab terms helps during editing, where autosuggestions are also prevalent. Without a consistent policy of applying the name of a character's first policy to their name, editing and searching would in fact be much more difficult. It's a good thing to have dab terms like we do, because it makes it completely obvious which Brian Williams you're looking for. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 05:45: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| == Spelling ==
| |
| | |
| Somebody, no idea who, but somebody sucks at spelling. This page was at the correct "Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)", but somebody, no idea who, who I'd assume is not as good at English usage as they think they are, moved the correct page to an incorrect title. Can an admin please move it back to the correct title? Unless all of a sudden 'soar'ing is the new dinosaur roaring. '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 06:07, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :It's a truism of, well, ''life'' that people make mistakes. Take it easy, big fella. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 06:32: Mon 17 Sep 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| ==I support the name change==
| |
| Just like to say I support the name change. I struggled to find this character, using google. It took me to the page [[Brian]]. Considering the number of Brians in Doctor Who i think that [[Brian]] should be made a disambiguation or at least have a (bracketed conxtext) in the page title.
| |
| | |
| The "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" title is now irrelevant. Just had to share my thoughts.
| |
| | |
| -[[User:Thomaslove92|Thomas Love]] [http://jackass.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AThomaslove92 http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/jackass/images/5/5f/Star_tiny.png] <small><nowiki>[</nowiki>[[User talk:Thomaslove92|talk]]<nowiki>]</nowiki></small> 13:48, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| * He's now appeared in ''[[Dinosaurs on a Spaceship]]'', ''[[The Power of Three]]'', and ''[[P.S. (webcast)|P.S.]]''. As the only other "Brian Williams" on record is a three-line page, I also support moving this to [[Brian Williams]]. If another particularly notable Brian Williams turns up, we can re-disambiguate this page as necessary. NOT doing it because there MAY be another B.W. somewhere down the line in either direction is frankly silly. '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 13:58, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| *Yeah, man, this is absurd. Rory's dad is obviously the most notable Brian Williams. He's not just the Brian Williams from ''Dinosaurs on a Spaceship'', he's a prominent reoccurring character. Parenthetically noting the story a character was in works when the character was only in one story, but in cases where a character was in multiple stories it looks like an error, and is certainly more confusing than useful for casual users. Any wiki policy that demands that article names be formatted in this way has to change if the wiki isn't going to look like a parody of itself. -- [[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]] [[User talk:Rowan Earthwood|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:12, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::I think you guys don't understand our dismag policy... [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 17:32, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :::Under the DAB policy header "Primary Topics":
| |
| ::::"Although a term may potentially refer to more than one topic, it sometimes is the case that '''one of these topics is far more likely to be the one a reader is searching for when searching in the Search box'''. If there is such a topic, then it is known as the primary topic for that term. If a primary topic exists, '''that article should be titled with no disambiguation''', however, with a note at the top of the article directing to a disambiguation page."
| |
| :::The likelihood that anyone is searching for [[Brian Williams (Snowglobe 7)]] is nearly zero, whereas searching for [[Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)]], twice a companion with an entire webcast revolving around him, is substantially higher. It's like saying if there was a character named Craig Owens in [[Planet of the Spiders (TV story)]], who appeared in the first two minutes and was unceremoniously killed and never mentioned again, that the current Craig Owens would have to be "Craig Owens (The Lodger)" forever, despite being a direct companion twice, and the focus of both episodes. At WORST, Brian Williams should be "Brian Williams (companion)". '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 17:51, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| It looks like you skipped two important points to get to "Primary Topics". Take a look at [[Tardis:Disambiguation policy#Main Principles]] and [[Tardis:Disambiguation policy#Finer Detail]] and you'll see the more specific guidelines. I understand that at present Rory's dad is "far more likely to be the one a reader is searching for" but how long will that last? He's pretty important now, but in the long run he's just a minor character who appeared in a handful of episodes in half a series. We're not naming articles for the current series, but rather for the entire almost-50 year run of the show and its various media. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:15, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :Rory's dad was a twice-companion with a considerable amount of focus. The previous "Brian Williams" was a prose character we know effectively nothing about. Look at the two characters pages it connects to. Only ONE of them has any considerable detail. It has nothing to do with "right now", there is a clear, stark, substantial difference as to the importance of each character. '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 18:30, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| : yeah, if the policy doesn't allow a change then the policy may need updating becuase this is obvious. If someone just googles "''doctor who brian''" on google they are taken to the page [[Brian]]. Which is another insignificant character. No matter how much you love the old series, the majority of people searching for a ''Brian'' will be looking for '''this''' Brian. He should be made more accessible for this reason.
| |
| | |
| ::I don't agree that Brian Williams-Pond needs to be considered the wiki's primary Brian (he has a last name that's pretty well-known), but I agree with the gist of this. The advantage of a wiki is that it can easily be edited as things change. If in the future [[Brian Williams (Snowglobe 7)]] or another Brian Williams appears in another story and becomes more prominent, we can revisit this. As it is now, it sounds like Rory's dad should be considered the primary topic in [[Brian Williams]], and appear without disambiguation. There's considerable support here for revising any rules that might say otherwise. -- [[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]] [[User talk:Rowan Earthwood|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:02, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| Two things: first, you're ignoring my original point, which is that Rory's dad is '''currently''' popular but that won't last forever. For most cases, this wiki does not put more relevance in one type of medium, character, etc over another. And let's face it, Brian is a minor character at best, even as a companion. Second, and most important, if you want to talk about changing the rules, it's time to take this discussion over to the forums where these kinds of discussions take place. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :Whether he is currently popular or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he was a fully-formed character, whereas the other Brian Williams is not. And you're right, for most cases there is no preference given to a medium, character, or anything else. But this Brian Williams was not just a side character, he played an active role in two adventures (like Craig Owens, for example), and the writers felt it necessary to give this particular character his own sendoff. The disambiguation rules clearly state that in a case where one is clearly the primary topic (in this case, Rory's father), it is not to be disambiguated. It can still retain the header linking to the one from Snowglobe 7, but by our own rules, how they stand right now, this page should be renamed. The other BW only has three lines describing him ''on this entire wiki''. This needless rules-lawyering is getting ridiculous. '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 00:43, October 20, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::Agreed. This isn't the only page where the disambigs aren't done how you'd expect. [[Victoria]] is the page for <nowiki>[[Queen Victoria]]</nowiki> (and for some reason that links to a planet, which should have a disambig in the title instead IMHO). But there's a companion called [[Victoria Waterfield]]. Surely she should be the primary subject for that name, it's even more obvious than Brian. Or at least disambig the planet, move the monarch to Queen Victoria, and move [[Victoria (disambiguation)]] to Victoria. {{User:Digifiend/SigReal|01:21,10/22/2012}}
| |
| | |
| I agree that this page should be made the primary; if the disambiguation policy allows for this page to become the primary Brian Williams article, then let's do so. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 04:01, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| So far no admin has weighed in on this issue, and since Victoria has entered into the picture, I suggest you take this issue to the forums. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:17, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :Shambala108 has represented the policies that are in place on this wiki very well.
| |
| :There are currently two Brian Williams' on this wiki. The two articles are not the only example of our DAB policy. This article happen to be the most visible ''now'' but as Shambala108 has said that is only how it ''currently'' stands.
| |
| :That DAB policy will not be changed to merely accommodate this article.
| |
| :Digifiend, Victoria Waterfield has a last name. That's her name. Her name "Victoria Waterfield" is used in a variety of mediums. Your suggestion to move [[Victoria]] to Queen Victoria would violate our [[Tardis:Honourifics]] portion of our [[Tardis:Tardis Manual]] and it will not be implemented. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:02, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::Understood on all points (and agreed on the Victoria front), but what are your thoughts on the DAB's "Primary Topic" policy, particularly with the other Brian Williams being an otherwise unnotable character? '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 15:11, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :::I don't believe any character or subject is "unnotable", this wiki covers everything of the DWU. So I don't see a difference between this or the other Brian Williams. The concept of an "unnotable" subject doesn't really exist on this wiki, certainly not in any way that it does on Wikipedia.
| |
| :::This Brian Williams is not a primary topic. [[Regeneration]], as the DAB policy notes is. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 06:43, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| [[File:Snowglobe7brian.png|thumb|right|250px]]
| |
| :::: Okay, "unnotable" was certainly the wrong word, but you're suggesting that we equate a character whose page barely contains three lines of information (we know his name, that he was part of a team, and that he was "surprised") to one whose presence has been quite important in the first half of this series, and the closure of the current companions. Honestly, I don't understand how it is that you can't see a difference between the two. To the right is literally all the information we have on the Brian Williams of Snowglobe 7, half a KB of text. He's not unnotable, but he's certainly not equal to "Brian Pond". '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 10:18, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :::::They both appeared in valid stories, both these stories' articles are given equal coverage on this wiki as is the information contained within them and the characters.
| |
| :::::I am not saying that the information on this article is insignificant or valued any less than the [[Brian Williams (Snowglobe 7)]] article. But I am not saying it is any ''more'' significant or valuable either. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 14:19, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::::::I mean, I have to disagree, ''[[P.S. (webcast)|P.S.]]'' alone I feel makes this Brian Williams more significant, but if we're not even going to address the Primary Topic rule, then what is the point of having it? '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 15:12, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :::::::In this case, the Primary Topic and the rest of the DAB policy exists to show why this discussion needn't have gone as long as it has. And why things are named as they are on this wiki.
| |
| :::::::The discussion concerning the DAB policy has already happened, it is policy.
| |
| :::::::PS contains notable information and it's been included on this article and other articles. We are not discounting the information presented in PS. Its significance and this article's significance is not being challenged. PS is no more significant than ''Snowglobe 7''.
| |
| :::::::Changing this article's name will not happen. As it would be in contradiction of our current policies and would have ramifications for a multitude of other articles on this wiki. As I've noted above with Digifiend's suggestion, making an exception on one portion of policy dominoes into other polices. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:37, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::::::::I understand what you're saying, however the entire purpose of the Primary Topic portion ''is'' to make exceptions when they arise. In particular, the line ''"one of these topics is far more likely to be the one a reader is searching for when searching in the Search box"'' is what I am addressing. This Brian Williams qualifies as a companion (for more than one adventure) whereas the other appears to have only had one line dedicated to him in the entirety of ''[[Snowglobe 7 (novel)|Snowglobe 7]]''. The likelihood (paramount to the Primary Topic portion) that SG7's Brian would be searched for is significantly lower than that of this Brian. This separation is key. This is a particularly rare situation (that I honestly can't think of anything to compare it to); we're not looking to make exceptions to rules, we're looking to ''enforce'' one. '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090>•</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF>·</font>]]''' 16:00, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| This Brian Williams does not define the "essential" Brian Williams. He is not the stand out example of '''A''' "Brian Williams".
| |
| | |
| I will not engage in a discussion whether he is a companion or has companion status here, that is not relevent to this conversion.
| |
| | |
| Here's a similar example; [[Joan Redfern (novel character)]] and [[Joan Redfern (TV character)]], where it was argued at the time that the TV character was more significant, that people ''felt'' that it was more significant than the novel character and that they were essentially the same character. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 03:18, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| And [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]] and [[John Hart (The Sea Devils)]]. This example is in the similar field as this discussion. John Hart from Torchwood appeared in more stories than Brian Williams and his name is still DABed in accordance with our policy.
| |
| | |
| Additionally, as this topic has been covered not once, but three times, it is one that has been covered and attended by three different admins over the course of these discussions.
| |
| | |
| This topic has been well and truly covered and I am closing this discussion. The page will not be renamed. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 08:50, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :I propose renaming the page to <nowiki>[[Brian Williams (TV character)]]</nowiki> and the other one to <nowiki>[[Brian Williams (novel character)]]</nowiki>, then, in accordance with Joan Redfern's precedent. It looks less like an error. -- [[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]] [[User talk:Rowan Earthwood|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:02, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::The only reason Joan Redfern gets that distinction is because the novel and the TV episode have the same name (i.e. ''Human Nature''); otherwise, a DAB'd character is named by the '''first''' episode he/she appears in. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:35, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :::As Shambala108 has explained the Joan situation was only implemented as both the novel and the TV episode had the same name.
| |
| :::Rowan Earthwood this discussion is '''closed'''. The pages will '''not be renamed'''. Neither Brian Williams page will be renamed. As I've already noted above admins have already been involved several times in this discussion. And as I've already noted above [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]] is disambiguated - this character has appeared in more stories than Brian Williams and is not specially disambiguated. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 12:50, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::::Clearly, the community opposition to this ruling is considerable, with suggests that instead of trying to shout down the naysayers a compromise might be advisable. Why not turn [[Brian Williams]] (and [[John Hart]], and [[Joan Redfern]]) into a disambiguation page? Limiting those to names associated only with three or more individuals seems a needless obstacle. The only thing you have to fear is a more easily navigated wiki. -- [[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]] [[User talk:Rowan Earthwood|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :::::"The community opposition to this ruling is considerable." Most of the names I see in favor of your argument are people who barely contribute to article pages. And most of them have only posted one time on this issue and have then ignored the issue -- only you and the guy with a dot for his name have bothered to post more than once in favor of change. I would bet that many of our regular users don't even know that such an issue is in question as the argument is currently located on an article talk page. I have suggested twice that you bring this issue to the forum page, which you have not done. More users are aware of issues from the forum pages than from the article talk pages. If you really want a representation of the community, the forums are the place to go. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:28, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| :Taking every comment in this thread one by one:
| |
| :*[[User:Thomaslove92|Thomaslove92]]: [[Brian]] has been a [[dab]] page since 2010.
| |
| :*[[user:Witoki|Witoki]]: I sympathise with your feelings that it's silly to futureproof article names, but as the person who typically has to clean up the mess, I can tell you that it's not. It is far, far smarter to anticipate that there will be another character with the same, common name — '''because there often is'''. This one is a slam dunk because there ''already'' is another character with that name — that we know of. Also, when I say futureproof, I don't mean that we're waiting for a ''new'' piece of fiction to rear its copycatting head. As I pointed out when this controversy first broke, we've barely scratched the surface on ''existing'' narratives — especially when it comes to audios and novels. I ''fully'' anticipate that at least one other Brian Williams exists ''somewhere'' in the huge catalogue of stories in other media.
| |
| :*[[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]]: I wouldn't call a guest star who returned once a "prominent recurring character". I'd ''barely'' call him recurring. He's a modern day [[Edward Travers]], that's all. (No, ''P.S.'' doesn't really count as a separate story.)
| |
| :*[[User:Witoki|Witoki]]: The primary topic rule is a seductive argument for overturning the current title. However, it is generally not applied to people on this wiki. The example quoted in the section, which you did not include, obviously referred to a general noun, [[regeneration]]. It's not meant for people, except when those people are, in a sense, partially concepts, like [[Victoria]]. The rule which applies in this case is point 1 under [[Dab#Finer detail]]. Your Craig Owens example is a bit moot because there is no other "Craig Owens" and "Craig" is unusual enough to make that eventuality less likely than "Brian Williams". Yes, this is a judgement call, but the fact of a pre-existing Brian Williams (not to mention a major US newscaster who might one day be mentioned in a work of DWU fiction) tips the balance in the favour of "Brian Williams" being a common enough name to guard against. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]]'s rebuttal to your claim of "likelihood of search" seems determinative to me. The guy's only appeared in two episodes (again, ''P.S.'' is not an episode, and there's no confirmation he actually appeared in ''Big Bang'') and probably won't return. He's not Wilf. He's not even Sylvia. He's not Mike Yates. He's [[Edward Travers]].
| |
| :*Unnamed editor: If you Google "Doctor Who Brian", you go to [[Brian]] where there's a top-line disambiguation note that directs you to the two "companion relatives" named Brian. So you'll get to this Brian Williams in one click from a Google search. Also, as an aside, "Doctor Who Brian" ''should'' take you to [[Brian]], because there are a ''lot'' of Brians in DW history — only some of which are currently catalogued there. By this time next year, no one is going think that "Doctor Who Brian" should lead to this page. This will be a half-remembered character in ''Doctor Who'' history, as we all come to grips with the new series. (By the way, you're the second person who seems to believe that [[Brian]] is an insignificant character. It has ''always'' been a disambiguation page, not a character page.)
| |
| :*[[user:Witoki|Witoki]]. You've got things the wrong way round when you argue "he's a fully formed character, whereas the other Brian Williams is not". The rule exists to minimise this sort of value judgement. It attempts to equally weight media and characters. The fact that one is a minor character in a book and the other is a two-time supporting character on television is irrelevant. They both have the same name, so the procedure is Name (First story). That's an easy rule to both apply and understand. It's not, as you seem to suppose, "rules-lawyering".
| |
| :*[[user:Digifiend|Digifiend]]: The [[Victoria]] situation has been remarked on before, but I'll give you some details. Victoria is seen to be the 18th century Empress of India and Monarch of the United Kingdom because she is partially conceptual. Much is named after her, including the [[Victorian era]] and, indeed, [[Victoria Waterfield]] herself. It is from her that a number of other concepts flow, so she is the very definition of a "primary topic". She could not be <nowiki>[[Queen Victoria]]</nowiki> because of [[T:HONOR]] — and because other monarchs are titled with just their name and number ([[Elizabeth I]], [[Elizabeth II]]), but more because there is an actual ''thing'' in the DWU called "Queen Victoria". It's a planet. At every step of the way with the name "Victoria" there are clear dab notes. On [[Victoria]] there's a link to [[Victoria (disambiguation)]] and [[Victoria Waterfield]]. At <nowiki>[[Queen Victoria]]</nowiki>, there's a link to [[Victoria]]. No one should be getting confused, and if they are, clarification should be readily available by visiting the pages in question. I don't honestly believe there could have been a ''better'' way of handling all the Victoria stuff, given the relative complexity of the disambiguation required.
| |
| :*[[user:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]]. Eh, there's not ''considerable'' opposition to this ruling. And there ''is'' compromise. We're just talking about the article ''name'' being disambiguated. If you type [[Brian Williams]] into the search bar, it naturally takes you to the oldest article with that name (if you're a go-searcher) or presents you with a list of Brian Williamses (if you're a default-searcher). In either case, this Brian Williams is but a click away. Furthermore, [[Brian]] prominently mentions this Brian Williams. The autosuggest feature clearly points you in the direction of this Brian Williams. So I'm not really seeing how there's some great ''loss'' of navigation with respect to a straightforward application of [[dab]] policy. I can see that there could be an argument for pointing the redirect to this page, but as it stands, the only page which links to the un-created [[Brian Williams]] is in fact this one. One measure of community opposition would be that people would simply be ignoring the proper title of the article and are linking to [[Brian Williams]]. If there was actual opposition, someone would have already created a redirect. This does ''not'' appear to be the case, however. So either our community isn't writing much about this Brian Williams, or when they ''do'' write, they're happy to use the dabbed name. In either case, there's hardly "considerable" opposition. No one is trying to "shout down the naysayers". There just don't appear to be that many ''actual'' naysayers out there. I think the truth is that we've used dab top-line notes, redirects, and disambiguation pages well enough that the average person isn't all ''that'' confused by what's going on. More to the point, Wikia seems to have fixed autosuggest since this debate first started. It's popping up immediately for me now, which means that no one should at all be confused as to the Brian Williams in question.
| |
| | |
| :At the end of the day, I just can't see how following the dab rules is at all hampering navigation in this case. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 23:12: Sun 28 Oct 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| ::Sorry, I said there was compromise, but I didn't quite demonstrate that, because I forgot I was getting results because of go-searching, not redirection. I have now created a redirect and it's pointed towards ''this'' Brian Williams. There's a tophat on this article pointing to ''Snowglobe'' Williams. Thus, the compromise is that the currently prominent Brian Williams wins the redirect, because it's unlikely that any other Brian Williams we might find will be ''more'' prominent than this one. But the actual, full name of this article stays at [[Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)]]. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 00:10: Mon 29 Oct 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| Why not rename it to <nowiki>[[Brian Williams (Rory's father)]]</nowiki>? Does the manual of style forbid this kind of article name? Rory is a companion and will be easily recognised by whoever searches for him. On the other hand, "Some guy (episode name)" will probably not be as recognisable in the autocomplete or other search options. Not many people will know what that episode was about, maybe some didn't see it or didn't know it was named that way, but they'll know Rory. Also, wasn't his dad also in the episode about the invasion of the cubes? That makes the episode title even more confusing. --[[User:Anime Addict|Anime Addict]] [[User talk:Anime Addict|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:16, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :Sigh.
| |
| :This isn't the only example of an individual disambigged with an episode/story name. As I've pointed out [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]] is disambigged despite being in more stories than Brian (and arguably is as important if not more than Brian).
| |
| :Anime Addict the manual is here; [[T:DAB]].
| |
| :This matter, as I've said above has been exhaustively discussed. CzechOut has gone above and beyond to answer this discussion each time it's come up.
| |
| :For the second time in this particular discussion this matter is closed. The page '''will not''' be renamed, it won't be moved, its name will not be changed. This discussion is '''''closed'''''. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:51, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| ::And for that matter, why can't it be [[John Hart (Time Agent)]] or [[Captain John Hart]]? If anyone asks me why "John Hart" has "Kiss" and "Bang" in his article title, and why is Brian the cube guy in a dinosaur ship, I'll tell him because it's been exhaustively discussed. I'm sure they'll understand. Cheers! --[[User:Anime Addict|Anime Addict]] [[User talk:Anime Addict|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:32, October 29, 2012 (UTC) <sup>I just love the hypocrisy of bureaucracy stamping on common sense late in the afternoon!</sup>
| |
| | |
| :::Yep. Basically. All our policies have been discussed. We've settled policies that can be applicable consistently across any articles. Each of yours and others' suggestions would have multiple permutations for a variety of articles. In order to edit consistently on a wiki the rules and policies need to have a logic and consistency to them.
| |
| :::If anyone asks you I would suggest you point them to our [[T:DAB]] policy which explains if much more succinctly. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 14:40, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :[[User:Anime Addict|Anime Addict]], we've had a very pleasant exchange of views on other matters so far, but I do have to warn you that your little superscripted comment after your name is:
| |
| :*not welcome
| |
| :*not helpful
| |
| :*not going to be tolerated
| |
| :Please read our policy [[Tardis:No personal attacks|against personal attacks]]. Calling the administrative staff hypocrites is an ''obvious'' and '''completely unwarranted''' personal attack. I'm not even quite sure how we ''could'' be hypocritical in this case. If you make any other remarks which denigrate other users you ''will be blocked'' from further editing here. (Don't think so? See [[User talk:Boblipton]].)
| |
| | |
| :Now: back on topic. You're making this much more difficult to understand than it actually is. If someone asks you why it's [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]] and [[Brian Williams (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship)]], the answer is ''quite'' simple.
| |
| | |
| :'''It's because there are multiple characters with that exact name, and therefore we add the story in which they first appeared. Easy.''' It's honestly not difficult to wrap the mind around.
| |
| | |
| :And, yanno, through the use of redirects and {{tlx|you may}} notes, we've taken care of navigation problems. If you enter "John Hart" or "Captain John Hart" into a search field, you'll be taken to [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]], where there's immediately a note pointing to the ''other'' Captain John Hart: [[John Hart (The Sea Devils)]]. (And that's a total concession to the "modern" DWU because I'm pretty sure the ''Sea Devils'' Hart actually appears in more minutes of film.)
| |
| | |
| :Point is that our policy is ''not'' anti-common sense. In fact, it allows for a ''common standard'' that can be applied in a variety of different situations, and takes about two seconds to learn and understand.
| |
| | |
| :Your attack on the policy is disingenuous because you're making it seem like in the choice between [[John Hart (Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang)]] and [[John Hart (The Sea Devils)]] someone would ''actually'' be confused. And even if they ''were'' a complete DW novice and chose the wrong one from the drop-down, they'd be greeted by a {{tlx|you may}} tophat that would have them precisely one click away from the correct page.
| |
| | |
| :You and others are also missing the point of dab terms. When you name an article, you're not saying "this is the only way to ''get'' to this article." You're ''only'' saying, "This is the way this article is differentiated from other articles." You're ''not'' foreclosing the opportunity to use a "more common-sensical redirect". You're ''not'' saying that people will have to type that into the search bar. You're ''only'' providing a ''technical'' way to distinguish one article from another. It makes sense that the method you choose be as consistently-applied as is possible. After the naming convention is established, you then make sure that other resources, such as dab notes and redirects, be focussed on bringing people to the page as painlessly as possible.
| |
| | |
| :We've done that in every case mentioned in this thread: [[Victoria]], [[Brian Williams]] and [[Captain John Hart]]. If you click on any one of those blue links, you will quickly and easily find every possible permutation of those names on this wiki. That is the best that can be hoped for, given the ''tremendous'' number of characters and concepts in the DWU.
| |
| | |
| :It's my belief that this is the most complicated of all the "major" franchises. I absolutely ''know'' that there are more characters in the DWU than those that exist in ''Star Wars'', ''Star Trek'', ''James Bond'', ''Indiana Jones'', ''Stargate'' or any other franchise I can think of.
| |
| | |
| :And our names are super-common. It's not like our character names are Yoda, Wedge Antilles or Scaramanga. We're stuck with multiple John Harts and Brian Williamses. Dirt common English names is what we have to worry about — not the flights of fancy that inhabit other franchises. Thus we ''must'' have a dab ''system'' — not just an "oh this sounds good in this case" approach. And nothing could be simpler than just attaching the name of the first story in which that character appeared.
| |
| | |
| :Honestly, given autosuggestion, a beefed-up search engine and care with redirects and dab notes, there's just not a case that our dab system impedes navigation in any significant way. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 20:31: Tue 30 Oct 2012</span>
| |
| | |
| This is a beautiful system, as I didn't even know there were two Brian Williams' until this discussion came up. Thank you very much for pointing out to me that there's a cool re-direct at the top of the main page that takes us to the other Brian Williams! And it's called a "dab system"! :D Makes it easy to learn more about the Whoverse, imo. :) [[User:JustLittleOlMe|<font color="blue">Jay JLOM</font>]]<sup>[[User Talk:JustLittleOlMe|<font color="Red">Things turn out for the best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out - John Wooden</font>]]</sup> 22:23, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
| |
