Talk:Control node (The Girl in the Fireplace)

Rename

The {{speedy rename}} request asks that we de-capitalise (minisculise..lower-casify...there must be a word for this...) "Man", so that it should become Clockwork man (The Girl in the Fireplace). Given the reasoning, it absolutely should be disambiguated, but is there a case for retaining the capitalisation? Also, if we were to rename this exactly as requested, Clockwork Woman would have to lose her capital Woman, as well.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 19:08, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Personally I think that all of Clockwork Man, Clockwork Woman and Clockwork Droid should either be lowercased [1] or the capital letter should be defended.T:HEAD SC prescribes to capitalise only proper nouns. And it's hard to claim that "man", "woman" or "droid" is a proper noun unless capitalised in-universe. For instance, "Mechanical" is always capitalised in the novel, making it a proper noun (and it is an unusual noun anyways).

(Ha, thanks for the correct terminology!)
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:11, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

While the "droid" case deserves some research, perhaps, I cannot imagine any in-universe insistence on Man and Woman being proper names. You wouldn't, after all, expect to see a crew list of SS Madame de Pompadour with "Clockwork Man" stated in big bold letters. The capitalisation clearly comes from the credits at the end of the episode, and it is a standard practice I've been pointed to several times by several admins to lowercase descriptive cast designations. Similarly, Time Works, being an audio story, never mentions which letters should be capitalised. Clockwork men are not mentioned in the publisher's description (I checked). Hence, there is no reason to capitalise them either.

To be honest, I noticed these capitalisation issues a couple of days ago, but putting in a rename request for such a small thing seemed not the first priority. However, since a rename is necessary for other reasons anyway, it makes sense to do it right. Amorkuz ☎ 20:05, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

So you're suggesting that they're not "Clockwork Droids", but "clockwork droids". I did a little research, and Moffat's script for Deep Breath calls them "Droids" and "Victorian Droids" (the latter never in dialogue). He calls one of them the Victorian Gentleman Droid.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:23, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

That's what I meant by requiring research. By default, they would have been "clockwork droids" just like we have "electronic calculators" or "mobile phones". However, if there is a precedent of capitalised usage, we can follow this precedent. Of course, the script is somewhere halfway between in-universe and out-of-universe. But ceteris paribus, we might as well use the capitalisation from the script. On the other hand, I wouldn't use "Victorian" because it was clearly stated that they are of the same origin as the droids in The Girl in the Fireplace, where droids are not Victorian. These droids are Victorian in appearance because that is the best disguise at the moment, that's all. Amorkuz ☎ 20:50, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, "Victorian Droid" is entirely out of universe, and does not describe them in-universe very well at all. I'd imagine Moffat was speaking more to their design in the episode.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:03, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Also Clockwork Droid nicely matches with Clockwork Mechanical. Amorkuz ☎ 20:51, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

And perhaps it would follow in the same style of the Half-Face Man, which is definitely a proper noun (props nouns?). That said, I do agree that since credits always capitalise, often they will do the same to names that really should be lower case.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:27, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

I think Half-Face Man is a different usage, despite a seeming resemblance. Here the main word is "Man" with "Half-Face" adding a unique characteristic. In other words, among many men, this one is half-faced. But in "clockwork man", then main word is "clockwork" with "man" adding an additional characteristic. Among all clockwork droids, he is masculine and there is another droid who is feminine and is accordingly designated "woman". Amorkuz ☎

Repair droid 7

The thing is, in universe, this droid is not the "Clockwork Man". He is "repair droid 7". Possibly "seven". Possibly with capitals. No idea. The droid identifies himself as "repair droid 7" when the Doctor asks and Reinette makes him answer.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:03, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Of course, the "Clockwork Woman" is given no such call sign, and her name would have no context in comparison to Repair Droid 7.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:07, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Nope, I got it backwards. The Clockwork Woman is Repair Droid 7. The Clockwork Man is given no such name.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:08, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Well, now. Makes one think. If we really want to avoid out-of-universe cast-based misdirection, then Repair droid 7 might be better than "Clockwork Woman". Of course, it is "7", not "seven". Robots that are numbered are typically numbered by numerals. It's just common reasoning: why would anyone spend 5 symbols on a robot where 1 suffices. And again, capitalisation needs a proof, IMHO, a proof we don't have for "droid" here. Amorkuz ☎ 21:17, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for breaking up your post. I agree here. "Seven" has no real precedent (other than Mark Seven, below). As far as we know, there is no proof for capitalising it. I don't have my DVDs on hand to check how BBC Worldwide's (or whoever was responsible) subtitle team decided to capitalise it. It does seem that Repair droid 7 is a better name for the "Clockwork Woman", but we're still left with "Clockwork Man".
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:31, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

The only android with spelled out number I could find was Mark Seven and there seems to be some problem with his naming/designation anyways. Amorkuz ☎ 21:21, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Control node

As for the man, isn't he the Control node of this particular crew? Amorkuz ☎ 21:17, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

The Girl in the Fireplace does not use the term "control node", at the very least. He does seem to be the leader, and according to Deep Breath the leader of the repair droids is called a control node. If that's good enough reasoning, Control node (The Girl in the Fireplace) might be a valid new name, but it feels like a reach to depend on a later story.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:31, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, how about a proof by quacking: if it quacks like a control node it must be one. I don't really remember this myself, but the Control node page explains that without the control node the other droids stop functioning. I vaguely remember that when the Clockwork Man was frozen by anti-oil, the other droids also ceased moving. The current plot for the story claims that the Doctor stopped the others by pressing some lever. But what if they just stopped on their own (and the lever is the editor's rationalisation). I'll try to rematch it (but probably not today). The idea is: if this droid's malfunction immobilises the others, then he possesses one of the major features of the control node. Since he is a contemporary of the Half-Face Man, he must be a control node. Amorkuz ☎ 21:44, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

UPD. Tough luck. The other droids definitely move after the Clockwork Man is paralysed and it is the lever that turns them off. The description in the plot is correct. Amorkuz ☎ 23:13, December 12, 2016 (UTC)

Does this mean it doesn't necessarily follow that he's the control node? Or is he still the control node simply because it's clear enough he's the leader? After all, it wasn't established for another eight years that the other droids should deactivate without him. And indeed, even Deep Breath establish that they deactivate on the death of the control node, not his immobilisation. I was just about willing to move this there once I got access to my computer again, which I have now.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 02:29, December 13, 2016 (UTC)

I still believe he is the control node. But, as you say, it is an extrapolation of the information from Deep Breath based purely on his leadership role. Amorkuz ☎ 07:55, December 13, 2016 (UTC)

Conclusion

The pages have been renamed, and all clean-up necessary completed. Thanks to all who contributed. Thanks, Amorkuz. Thanks, me. You're welcome, me.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 08:21, December 13, 2016 (UTC)