Talk:Meta-Crisis Doctor: Difference between revisions

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Blue suit - Behind the Scenes?

Why is this in the Behind the Scenes section?

The Doctor occasionally wore his blue suit even after the Meta-Crisis Doctor left the TARDIS with it, revealing that the Doctor either replaced it or owned more than one. (TV: Music of the Spheres, Dreamland, The Waters of Mars)

This is an in-universe statement. Unless there's something I'm missing here, this should be in a separate section. SmallerOnTheOutside ☎ 02:56, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Regeneration

so according to " The Mirror," Steven Moffat is counting the meta-crisis tenth doctor as a regeneration. This is kind of important since it puts to bed the long debate over whether or not Meta 10 used up a regeneration. Plus, since the War Doctor exists, that would bring us to 12 regenerations (8 classic + War + 9 + 10 + M10 + 11). Shouldn't it be added to the page somewhere? Source link: [[1]] Kremlin16 ☎ 07:37, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Please see Thread:145998 for how we're dealing with the different incarnation numbers, and please see Tardis:Valid sources for why anything Moffat says offscreen cannot be put on in-universe pages. Thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 14:17, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

So, basically, until meta 10 is confirmed to have counted on screen, and the Doctor mentions he used up all his regenerations on screen, this kind of thing won't be added? I just want to make sure I understand this. Kremlin16 ☎ 21:19, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sort

Should this page be sorted as Doctor, Meta-Crisis Tenth instead of its current name? It doesn't fit in with the rest of the Doctors. guyus24 05:37, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Was wondering how could mention that there was a lesser version of a meta-crisis with The Doctor during his 1st incarnation when his energies were drained and transferred into the Human[oid] Jano, which permanently altered him (in The Savages). Just an oldster's odd observation.174.64.6.27^{talk to me} 07:08, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

Is there in-universe proof that Jano was a meta-crisis? Certainly, the term was not used in The Savages. In addition, there are significant differences: Jano was an existing individual, he was not created as the result of meta-crisis. Also, depending on how close Jano's people were to humans, Jano was not supposed to survive being a meta-crisis. Note that Steven Taylor could successfully breed with the inhabitants of the planet, meaning that biology was reasonably similar. Amorkuz ☎ 15:32, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Tentoo

I know much discussion has been had to reach the name for this incarnation that the wiki uses, but the social media accounts have now called him "Tentoo" – Is this an official acknowledgement and recognition for this name? (Before you protest "it's not in-universe" or to that effect, remember that the same is true of pretty much every variation on The Nth Doctor with only The Eleventh Doctor ever referring to themselves as such iirc.)

First of all, it is not the case that Nth Doctor is not in-universe. Tardis:Doctors provides relevant references for this naming scheme from stories.

Secondly, anonymous "social media accounts" and "official confirmation" are largely antithetical to each other. Notwithstanding, unspecified social media accounts are not a valid source and should be disregarded.

Finally, even if the Doctor, in-universe, uses "time-wimey" to describe Blinovitch Limitation Effect, we are not going to rename it thusly. This is an online encyclopedia of Doctor Who. We are not going to use niche jargons instead of proper English. We are going to be very grown-up and use words like "equidistant" and "meta-crisis". However, if RTD and Ten(nant) himself both start rooting for an alternative name, I will be prepared to return to this question. Amorkuz ☎ 16:08, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

Conjecture

I have not yet been able to listen to The Siege of Big Ben (I'll get it sometime next week) but the Big Finish page refers to this character as the Meta-Crisis Doctor. Does this mean that the title is conjectural no more? --Borisashton ☎ 12:33, June 30, 2018 (UTC)

First of all, a very astute observation. Unfortunately, he is not called that in the story though "meta-crisis" is used to explain his condition (several times). Jackie Tyler calls him "the Doctor" most of the time. Nevertheless, it is indeed the case that a holder and executor of a BBC license calls him "Meta-Crisis Doctor" off-universe. While the description of the {{conjecture}} requiring to use it for articles "whose subjects' names do not actually appear within a valid narrative" still applies, I think it is an important step. Were the name Meta-Crisis Doctor used in the credits, it would have been enough. For now, we just need to wait till the meta-crisis mass becomes critical. Amorkuz ☎ 21:48, July 5, 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record although yet again the evidence isn't in the narrative, this Doctor was referred to as "The Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" in a recently uploaded video to the official Doctor Who YouTube channel. --Borisashton ☎ 18:40, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

The alias used in the new Target Storybook short story (Corin) is only relevant to said story. As stated above, the alias is not used in Big Finish nor on any official site. The author has made clear that it is a different timeline than either of the Big Finish Short Trips.--ibelieveinher ☎ 19:45, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Hi I've left a message on your talk page but please note that your first statement above is incorrect with regard to how we write articles on this wiki. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 23:50, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

The term Meta-Crisis Doctor is the common factor throughout all mediums and to refer to him as Corin in relation to anything but the short story is incorrect. The base neutral "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should therefore be the term/name used when referring to the character in any common dialogue. If we start using one specific name for all characters across any medium then we may as well only call The Doctor, Theta.ibelieveinher ☎ 00:50, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The article has been protected for now due to vandalism by two IP users. Shambala108 ☎ 01:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

First we should establish whether TtotT takes place before or after the Big Finish Short Trips. If it takes place after then "the Doctor" and "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should be the terms used to refer to this individual in reference to the BF stories within the biography section. As his most recent name, "Corin" should be used for all other sections. --Borisashton ☎ 01:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The author has said that it takes place in a separate timeline than Big Finish. In same way that the First Doctor and Susan have conflicting adventures, one is not related to the other and therefor one name cannot be used as standard.- ibelieveinher ☎ 01:28, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence of this intent and a specific example of this First Doctor precedent? --Borisashton ☎ 01:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

In Susan's intro alone, she as 2 separate names listed after "According to some sources". This is the format we should follow for the Meta-Crisis Doctor. He only goes by that name in one spin-off and the two appearances (big finish/target storybook) are unrelated. We know "Doctor Who" doesn't subscribe to continuity, so to try and ascribe continuity to it would be a disservice. He goes by The Doctor from day one in the Big Finish Short Trips but the Target Short Stories have him choosing a new name before leaving Norway. "The Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the only neutral and canonical term/name used across all media. - ibelieveinher ☎ 01:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But the Susan example is an example of conflicting sources. If TTotT takes place after the BF stuff I see no contradiction. There is precedent here with Jack Harkness. For the early life sections of his biography he is referred to as Javic and then later as Jack. His most used and most recent alias is the one used for most of the page. --Borisashton ☎ 01:59, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But with Jack, the usage of his names are consistent across all media. I don't feel this precedent should apply in this situation since the monikers of the Meta-crisis are inconsistent.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The Big Finish Audios and the Target Storybook 'are' conflicting sources. They even specifically diverge in regards to the topic of conversation. And to canonize one over the other would be taking sides and the point of this site is to remain neutral. Meta-Crisis Doctor is how we do so. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:03, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How do they conflict, exactly. Could you provide details? --Borisashton ☎ 02:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Big Finish establishes the fact that the Meta-Crisis Doctor goes by the name, "Doctor" within the first 5 minutes of The Siege of Big Ben. The director of Unit also calls him The Doctor before the end of story as well. They are well into living their lives in Pete's World. In the follow up, Flight Into Hull!, Jackie says flat out that he is "still the Doctor!" In TtotT, it says he picks his new name only days after arriving on Bad Wolf Bay and is then never once referred to as The Doctor. They also have different careers in both; In the audios he and Rose both work for Unit and live in London and in TtotT they are a Doctor and teacher respectively living on the south coast.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I hardly think these are irreconcilable. We can simply stucture the page as: "days after arriving in Pete's World, Rose confronted the Meta-Crisis Doctor about him using the name the Doctor. He then chose the name "Corin" for himself, and became a doctor, while Rose went on being a teacher. (PROSE: The Turning of the Tide) Year laters, "Corin" once again called himself "the Doctor", and worked for UNIT (AUDIO: The Siege of Big Ben, Flight Into Hull!)" etc etc.

I do agree (from the info we gathered) that we need to take care where in the article we refer to him as "Corin" and when we refer to him as "the Doctor". Does anyone disagree with the compromise I proposed above (which would of course be further developed if put on the page)? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:31, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I believe that when speaking about TtotT he should of course be referred to as Corin, but to change any mention elsewhere is too far. The show called him a Meta-Crisis (he himself was adamant that he was The Doctor), and Big Finish has chosen that he goes by The Doctor as well. I think to try and combine the two for the sake of everyone isn't our place. The same way Susan's previous names are mentioned when referring to those stories, the same should be done for The Meta-Crisis. Keep 'The Doctor' with the audios and keep 'Corin' with the Target Story. We could get int othe fact that RTD, David Tennant, and Billie Piper (along with his specific fans, for good reason) all call him Tentoo, but the overall neutral is still Meta-Crisis Doctor.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:37, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The disagreement is with the fact that in a specific tweet from the author, she states that she decided to go a different direction from Big Finish, therefore making her story an AU and not related to Big Finish in anyway. They are two separate verses. Someone else posted a link to the author's tweet in the section below. -Tentooisthedoctor – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Apologies, I thought I responded to this but I was mistaken. It is not up to this site to decide for fans how stories may be connected. The fact is that as of right now they are not. They conflict in more ways than they overlap. Both spin offs (audios/storybook) deal with a a similar timeline but different situations. We can't restructure those stories for simplicity's sake.

I thik the compromise should be that any alternate monikers should be used in the sections which are related to their relevant stories and any neutral mentions should stick with The Meta-Crisis Doctor. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:39, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

There hasn't been any in-show appearance post-Journey's End to confirm any sort of timeline for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, so both the Big Finish and Target stories dealing in hypotheticals. Why force the two stories into one coherent timeline when they weren't intended as such and let fans decide for themselves how they fit together? Why not deal with them as "One account suggests this, another suggests something else" and use the neutral Meta-crisis name otherwise? Thanks for being open to suggestions.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Metacrisis/Tentoo

The Meta-crisis page is completely inaccurate and should not have been changed to meet the views of one writer's headcannon since she did not write the actual show. The head writer Russell T. Davies did not give the metacrisis Doctor a name. He is still THE DOCTOR (meta-crisis or Tentoo) and should remain as such until Russell Himself comes out and says otherwise. Also trying to change the name back to Tentoo is not vandalism. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Also on the author's Twitter page she specifically states that while she enjoyed the Big Finish she chose to go a different direction with her story therefore not staying with the previous storylines but rather her own personal ideas of what would have happened. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

I suggest you read Tardis:In-universe perspective and Tardis:Neutral point of view to understand this wiki's way of handling all stories. And please note that wikis on FANDOM are written by and for fans, we don't have to follow everything the writers say or do. We have our own definition of what is a valid source and what isn't. Shambala108 ☎ 01:46, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Also, could you please provide a link to this so-said tweet? Going through her tweets from today and yesterday, I can find no mention of either Big Finish or the Meta-Crisis Doctor/Corin. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 01:48, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The tweet was in response to a question: "Are you tying into what they did with the Big Finish short stories at all? Or taking a different path?" Her response was as follows: "I LOVED the Big Finish shorts but I have gone a different way. xxxxx" Author's Tweet --Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 02:00, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

With all respect, I think that the anonymous user read too much into her tweet. The most straight-foward (and most likely) interpretation for her answer ("different way") means just that: her story isn't continuity-linked with the two BF Short Trips. But then again, neither are any of the stories in this anthology. That's not the point of the stories. Most likely, she just meant that there wasn't any intention on this story being written to tie-in with these stories - but jumping from this to "this story and the two Short Trips take place in alternate realities" is a very big stretch. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I did a deep search of her twitter today as well and she is very clear that the two stories are not connected. As you said, they're not continuity linked so it would be unwise to try and connect them or any moniker used from one to the other.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How this wiki works

For some reason there are a lot of new users interested in this issue. Therefore, to make things clear, I will explain briefly how this wiki works. I will also cite a few policy pages that I won't bother to spell out here, but they should be read if anyone wants to understand the wiki's position.

For in-universe articles, we are trying to make a narrative/history of the Doctor and assorted people associated with him and spin-offs. We try to write from an outside, neutral perspective, almost as if we are historians chronicling the Doctor's history.

When an author (book, comic, audio, etc) adds something that expands on something from the tv show(s), we treat that as part of the overall narrative. Therefore, even if only one story names a character something, then we write the article with that in mind.

Because this is Doctor Who, and its writers don't care about continuity (or what each other write), there are often contradictions. We take care of those by writing statements like, "According to one account, the Doctor did this. Other accounts suggested that he did this instead."

Policies:

Please keep in mind that a FANDOM wiki is written by and for fans, and we as a community have decided how we want to run our wiki. When we write in-universe articles, we only use stories as sources. It doesn't matter what any author/actor/director/etc says about something if it doesn't appear in a story. Therefore, "Tentoo" is not a name we will be using on in-universe articles until/unless it appears in a story. As for "Corin", that is still up for discussion here. Shambala108 ☎ 02:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. I guess this is just a formal request then that Meta-Crisis Doctor be used in any broad statements in the article. But since we currently have 3 places in which this character appears and all with different alias's (TV - Journey's End, Audio -The Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull!, and Prose - The Turning of the Tide), I believe the only way to stay neutral is to continue referring to the character as The Meta-Crisis Doctor in the article and specific story paragraphs can use the names from the stories i.e. The Doctor or Corin. For the broad spectrum I think we should stick with Meta-Crisis Doctor. Tentoo is obviously a fan used name and not relevant to the conversation at this time.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:01, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Since the Big Finish and Target stories are conflicting, then it makes the most sense to take both media and discuss them in terms of "According to one account, other accounts suggested this" rather than referring to a linear timeline and use the moniker Meta-Crisis throughout the page. Since the Meta-crisis and Rose have not appeared in the show again to confirm any post Journey's End story line, they are co-existing story lines and should be treated as such if the TARDIS wiki is to remain neutral.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:17, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add my agreement with the two posts above. I believe that if you all are truly "writing this as/for the fans" as you stated above, then to remain neutral he should be referred to solely as the Metacrisis Doctor as the BBC has documented except in the specific section for the Target Book in which the author names him differently for her story. -DoctorxRoseForever 10/25/19

I see no conflict. -- Saxon (✉️) 14:24, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Could you elaborate? --Ibelieveinher ☎ 15:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would also like to add my agreement to the fact that he should mainly be referred to as "Metacrisis Doctor"- not as "Corin"- as obviously the vast majority of the stories he has appeared in refer to him as "Doctor" and not that other name. Yes it should get a mention, but it is not the name that he is known as for most of his appearances in canon. Would you refer to the 12th Doctor as "Doctor Basil Disco" throughout his wiki page because he went by that name for one episode? I don't think so Oimatchstickman ☎ 16:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

But that was a one-off aliases intended to be used briefly, and wasn't even the aliases he used (it was "John Disco"). "Corin", however, is intended to be the name he chose after settling down and, like when the General's real name was given as Kenossium, must be treate as such in narrative, except for events depicted before he chose the name.BananaClownMan ☎ 18:33, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Corin is his chosen name in one post-Journey's End story. He is not using that name in the Big Finish short trips which are also post-Journey's End. There is nothing in either story to suggest the two are connected in a linear timeline and shouldn't be forced together because that is conjecture and no actual evidence for connection exists. He is not choosing that name in all possible timelines post-Journey's End, and since the Meta-Crisis and Rose have not appeared again in the show to confirm a coherent storyline, the Target story shouldn't be taken as the definitive post-Journey's End canon. Neither should Big Finish, to be fair. The two should be handled as separate accounts of events if the site wishes to be neutral. Corin should only be used in reference to the Target story, and Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor should be used as the neutral moniker elsewhere.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 18:44, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. Only one out of four stories supports this new name. In all other stories, he is The Doctor. If it must be used, it should only be used when talking about him in the Target Storybook version of events. It should not in ANY way be used for the Big Finish stories or any of the other information in the page. Not to mention that it's a super confusing name for anyone to find by chance. I was very confused about seeing "Corin" when looking at the page that lists the stories in the anthology when I was just looking to see what the Meta-crisis story was called. Meta-Crisis Doctor should be the rule, "Corin" the exception. Oimatchstickman ☎ 19:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If I'm being honest, based on what I'm reading it sounds like the admins on this site are in no way being as neutral as they claim they are supposed to be. The fans that have posted above have made perfectly logical arguments as to why the name should not be changed to fit the direction of one author's story. Especially when said author publicly stated on social media that she chose to go a different way from the Big Finish audios. That should tell you right away that her story in no way ties into the canon that was already established by those storylines, nor is it connected to them in any way. And based on your rules and regulations you've got posted throughout these comments, should not allow a name change to the character's entire page aside from the one section regarding the Target book. The fact that some of the admins keep arguing against these points (which are in accordance with their rules of how cannon should be stated) makes me a bit suspicious of their reasons behind changing the name. In addition, I ask the moderators, based on your NEUTRAL POLICY of "base your edits on the facts present in valid sources. Ignore your own opinions — and those of fan websites. If you can't prove it with a high quality source, don't write it." Can you cite your sources as to where it states the Target Story is directly tied to Big Finish or any of the other canon material out there that refers to him with this new name instead of The Meta-Crisis Doctor? -bannanasaregood October 25, 2019 – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.107.32.28 (talk).

I don't know how to make clearer to our new users how we write articles on this wiki, so I'm going to offer up a suggestion: while this article is still locked, please browse the wiki, concentrating on character pages, and see how we try to integrate all stories into a single narrative. It takes a while to get the hang of how we integrate tv, audio, comic, prose, and web stories, and we don't always succeed in making a nice flowing narrative, but we are trying.

The next part is mostly addressed to "bannanasaregood" (actually an IP user), but it would benefit all new editors to pay attention. "bannanasaregood", your comments are a violation of Tardis:No personal attacks, specifically your suspicions of admin reasons for our actions. You don't yet understand how this wiki works, so our actions may not make sense to you, but let me be perfectly clear: personal attacks are not tolerated on this wiki. If you are blocked for violating this policy, you can't argue your position on this issue.

To make my own position on this issue clear: I don't care at all about this issue. I don't care what we call this guy, as long as we follow long-established wiki policy. My comments above are intended to educate the half dozen or so new users that have been attracted by this issue, and my locking of the page for a week was to prevent any more violations of Tardis:You are bound by current policy and Tardis:Edit wars are good for absolutely nothing.

I'm going to call for a cooling-off period. There is no need for anyone to keep restating their opinions when we can see them already on the page. After this weekend, hopefully there will be a greater understanding of how this wiki works, and then we can get back to the discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 22:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

One other thing, please refrain from making any arguments on this issue on anyone's user talk page, whether or not they are an admin. We are discussing this article, so the arguments must be on this talk page. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 22:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Ok but there is NO, NONE, NOTHING AT ALL to connect the Target book and the Big Finish stories. Can you please put in plain language why the Wiki will not allow this character's name as given in 3/4 of his appearances to be the main name given here and why ONE single story is being given precedence in this article? Much as I loathe the name 'Corin' I get that it should have some sort of presence here but I do not see any reason why it should be the Meta-Crisis Doctor's main name. Especially as it's just a confusing name to come across in other articles unrelated to the story. Oimatchstickman ☎ 00:45, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If all sources have "equal weight" why does one story overrule three other stories? If they all have equal weight in their own specific timelines/versions of events, why is "Corin" being used as the "true" name when it is never used in other media whatsoever? It does not seem to me based on the articles you have linked that using "Corin" is the correct name to use here for this Doctor. And, again, it's a confusing name to use elsewhere when talking about the character as few are going to know who that name refers to. "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is the neutral name here- especially as events in that story in no way match up with the events in Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull. There are numerous, vividly clear differences that make it obvious that they're not connected (differing jobs for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, different names, there is no mention of the baby, and so on). Even the author conceded months ago that they do not take place within the same narrative. Use "Corin" for things related to that specific story, but elsewhere- and ESPECIALLY when writing about events within the Big Finish version of events- he should be "the Meta-Crisis Doctor." Oimatchstickman ☎ 01:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

I am going to dare to join in. The reason, as I can see, for the name being used is because "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a title based on conjecture whereas the name "Corin" has been officially used inside a source therefore confirmed to be used in the universe. To me, it is as simple as that. It is his official name which he has declared he wishes to be referred to as. As fans, that is what we agree with; the character's own idea of who they are rather than the name we try to force on them. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 20:10, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, have you actually read the Target Novel story? --Buffyann23 ☎ 19:15, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Buffy, the point I was making (irrespective of me hearing/reading the story) is that the name was officially given in an accepted canon source therefore (whether you like it or not) the name is still accepted as a name this character goes by (whether to himself or others). Hence, it warrants discussions about the extent we refer to it on the article and whether or not his name should be renamed to it.

Note how I've kept my discussion solely on this line rather than trying to discuss the source in detail.

The debate appears to be bouncing around whether we name him "Corin" because it is a name officially given to him rather than an awkward blend of fan names (Meta-Crisis + the Doctor = "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor") or we give him a more known name ("Tenth Doctor (Journey's End") given the vast majority of fans will only know this Doctor from the TV show, hence make the article much easier to search for among visitors. That takes time to hash out.

I'm reinforcing that, whether for better or otherwise, the name was mentioned in a source therefore warrants the discussion (which is still relatively young as far as discussions go, hence why it has not been closed yet.) These things take time to fully resolve rather than allowing those few lucky editors who got here first to make all the decisions. More editors (who feel inclined) gradually show up to give their opinion so we get a wider wiki concensus. That's what we are after all; a community. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 09:28, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

Two versions in one timeline

From what I can gather on The Turning of the Tide, it is set vey soon after Journey's End, while the Big Finish audios do not specify a time length. I see no reason while Meta couldn't have decided to call himself "Corin" after moving to the south coast with Rose to work as a doctor and teacher while preparing for their child's birth. Then, by the time of the Big Finish shorts, he's moved back to London to work with UNIT, who still call him "the Doctor" because it was Rose's idea to not call him "the Doctor", but no one else had any reversions on his name. Like, "Corin" is who he is with Rose, and "the Doctor" is who he is with UNIT.

Is this speculative? Yes, but, to my knowledge, it does not contradict any in-universe information, and, frankly, if it ends this debate, then so be it.BananaClownMan ☎ 13:32, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

If that was true then why is there no mention of Rose having been pregnant or any mention of them having a baby in the Big Finish audios? Also in the Big Finish stuff, The Doctor is growing a TARDIS (deleted scene from Journey's end in which Ten gives Tentoo a piece of coral to grow his own and RTD has said was canon). In the Target story he doesn't have any of that. Also in Big Finish The Doctor tells Jackie he still has nightmares that refer to the Time War and taken directly from the Journey's End transcript: "NEW DOCTOR: I look like him and I think like him. Same memories, same thoughts, same everything. Except I've only got one heart. ROSE: Which means? NEW DOCTOR: I'm part human. Specifically, the aging part. I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've only got one life, Rose Tyler. I could spend it with you, if you want." However in the Target Novel he suddenly doesn't remember his past adventures at all. You have to be able to concede that these are some major differences between the stories. So I'm still unclear as to why one story's decision to name him takes preference over any other meta out there. --Buffyann23 ☎ 00:17, October 27, 2019 (UTC)--– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buffyann23 (talk • contribs) . -buffyann23 10/26/19

Then I propose the following: If this is how the wiki is going to consider this timeline, if he is not using the alias Corin in the Big Finish short trips, Corin should not be used in that section and the alias Doctor should be used instead. If he is using two aliases, then the entry should reflect that. I would also request that the first mention on the page not be Corin, but rather Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor as it would be confusing to any users stumbling on the page as a new fan (I would have been, as I used this wiki religiously when I started watching the show), and it could be mentioned later in the opening that in the Target story he took up the name Corin and that would leave users far less confused.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 14:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

The thing is that it would've been a very quick turn around for the Big Finish stories- because there is an indication of how quickly they happen after Journey's End. Tony- Jackie and Pete Tyler's son- is 4 years old in the two stories. He would've been around 3 (if time passes at the same rate in that universe though it is said that it runs a little ahead of the prime universe) at the time of Journey's End since Jackie was a few months pregnant at the end of Doomsday, so "Siege of Big Ben" would take place within a year or so of the Meta-Crisis' arrival in that universe. So we'd be looking at a minimum turnaround of 3 months or so after Rose gave birth to the child mentioned in The Turning of the Tide IF the two stories could be connected (which really they can't be). Rose also works at UNIT in the Big Finish stories and is on active duty as she was sent on a mission in "Siege." So no, that conjecture doesn't really hold. (And PS to the mods- it was my understanding that I'd been blocked from a specific page and not all discussions and since not everyone in this discussion seems to have listened to the Big Finish stories I felt I needed to find a way to continue this conversation. I am sorry for being overly zealous in some of my edits, but I don't feel like everything is being taken into account here.) 45.46.209.56^{talk to me} 20:57, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

Please see your talk page regarding the serious nature of what you have now done, thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 21:16, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

I propose this way of doing it. Have this specific article use "Corin" as the name of the character, and indeed also the article of the story that uses it, but have the rest of the articles talking about him still use "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor". --DCLM ☎ 22:03, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

Just a quick admin note, please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~, as stated in the banner at the top of the editing page. Shambala108 ☎ 23:15, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

As a sidenote, I also read your section regarding names https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tardis:Character_names in which you state: "By forum consensus, the titles of articles about individual characters should be the name by which the character was most commonly known in the Doctor Who universe." Which in this case would be The Metacrisis Doctor. Therefore the name the author chose to go with for her story, which cannot be connected canonically to Big Finish or Journey's End should only be referenced as to her story. --Buffyann23 ☎ 05:12, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Again, the name "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a name based upon conjecture; he was never called that in the Doctor Who universe but he has been called "Corin" in the source discussed earlier. Therefore, that is his canonised name rather than the one we fans gave him as a placeholder in our universe for some eleven years now. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 08:45, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, I would be happy to provide you with multiple links to articles that state otherwise. (Including statements made by the BBC who owns licensing to the character) Not to mention the fact that in the Big Finish Short Trips, which are not tied to the Target Story in any way, Call him The Doctor. Jackie even states and I quote "He didn't want to be Mr. Meta-crisis, he wanted to be The Doctor." and in between both of those short trip stories, he is referred to as "The Doctor" 67 times. --Buffyann23 ☎ 13:25, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

In addition there is also an officially licensed Doctor Who vinyl doll that has been released by the BBC and Titan which states on the box "Meta-Crisis 10th Doctor". So I have to ask again, why one story, which the author has stated that she went a different direction from Big Finish, is being given preference. --Buffyann23 ☎ 13:40, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

One of the policies I cited above is Tardis:Valid sources. When we write in-universe articles, we only allow stories as sources for information. Therefore, author comments or merchandise packaging or the like do not count as sources for in-universe material.

I've already said this above, but I encourage our new users to browse the wiki to see how we write articles. That's the only way to really understand why we do things the way we do and how we are trying to make it all come together. And I would appreciate any help from our experienced users who might be able to come up with any articles/situations similar to this for examples. Shambala108 ☎ 13:47, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Radical suggestion: to compromise we could rename the article "The Doctor (Journey's End)" leaving Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor and Corin as redirects. The title would no longer be based upon conjecture and we can explain in the lead that he chose Corin as a name but then later started being called the Dotcor again. --Borisashton ☎ 13:58, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Borisashton, he didn't choose the name. Rose named him, like a dog. And yes, it even says that in the story. "Like a dog." And since the Target book itself in no way connects to the Big Finish stories that came before it, then the name "Corin" should only be applied to the section regarding the Target Novel. If anyone here had listened to both Big Finish audios, it would be perfectly clear that the stories were in no way connected. That is what we fans keep trying to explain. Because the name shouldn't be preferentially applied to other meta that it does not tie into. He is called a Meta-crisis in Journey's End and he tells Donna "I am The Doctor." In Big Finish, he is also called Meta-Crisis as well as "The Doctor." We are simply asking that someone actually take this stuff into account and listen to the audios and then read the story to understand how they completely differentiate before assigning a specific title based upon one author's decision to name him... like a dog (Jenny Colgan's words not mine)--Buffyann23 ☎ 14:25, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

It would also have been easier if you had read T:VALID from the start. He is never referred to as the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor or the Meta-Crisis Doctor. The only names valid sources have given us is the Doctor and Corin. I think naming the article Corin would be troublesome for readers not in the know to find which is why I have outlined my suggestion above. --Borisashton ☎ 14:46, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Borisashton, I would agree with your compromise of him being called "The Doctor (Journey's End)" but again, the issue on the name "Corin" is that it should only apply to the Target Story because it is not connected to The Big Finish stories that were released and therefore should not be noted as such. Again, I implore you to please listen to the Big Finish stories and you will see clearly that the timelines do not fit between the book and the audios. As much as many of us hate the name and the way Colgan wrote The Doctor and Rose so OOC, we know that we can't completely obliterate it from being documented but we do ask that it only be noted in the specific section to which it applies, (The Target Novel). If Big Finish comes out and states they are documenting the name as well, I will shut up about it. I would be completely upset about it of course, but I would then drop the subject. --Buffyann23 ☎ 15:22, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

This is how much I see it necessary to refer to Corin. Once in the lead, throughout our coverage of The Turning of the Tide, once after that preceding coverage of The Siege of Big Ben to note that he later went by the name the Doctor again, and then in the bts section in the coverage of all his different names. --Borisashton ☎ 15:53, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

I feel like I'm speaking a different language or something here because people keep stating the same thing over and over to my comments. Unless you have listened to the Big Finish audios, then I don't think you should be able to make a rational decision as to where the name is used. Multiple people have already stated that the two verses DO NOT TIE TOGETHER. You can't keep saying "well, he went by a different name later" If he didn't use the name at all in Big Finish and the timelines between the stories don't match up. You can't honestly tell me that you can claim that he changed from one to the other when it is clear THE STORIES DO NOT COINCIDE IN THE SAME VERSE. So again, the only place "Corin" needs to be used is in the paragraph regarding The Target Novel. --Buffyann23 ☎ 16:39, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

In response to Shambala's request for similar scenarios, one I can recall is the incident regarding naming Jack Harkness' page when his name before begin Captain Jack Harkness was revealed in Month 25 and first hinted at in Captain Jack Harkness. Granted, the reason his name has not changed is because his name "Jack Harkness" was decreed as an official name he goes by whereas (as already stated) the names being proposed for this article are based on conjecture, rather than used in official sources. The examples cited also do not distinguish this Doctor (using the title "The Doctor") from the actual Doctor, which we have a page for. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 17:53, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, that was why we said it could be put as "The Doctor(Journey's End)" Okay, let me try to put this to you another way, would you categorize all the Spider-Man movies that have been made as being connected? No, because they are a different director/writer's take on the material. So if you were categorizing a page, you would say "this happened in this version" for the Maguire series, while "such and such happened" in the Garfield series and "whatever else" in the Holland version. You wouldn't say "Well, Spider-Man could shoot webbing directly out of his arms" Because that was only in the Maguire version, while the comics and other movies have him creating the webbing and shooting it from attachments on his wrist. The same can be said in the fact that Big Finish is SEPARATE from the Target Book. Different timelines, different jobs, the fact that Rose is PREGNANT in the book and not the audios should be a BIG CLEAR IN YOUR FACE SIGN and the time differences from Journey's End to where these take place don't match up to where they could coincide with one another either based on the age of Tony Jackie gives in the audios. Again I understand the name is going to be added to the page but put it where it belongs, in the TARGET NOVEL section and NOT to describe The Doctor anywhere else that he was never called that. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buffyann23 (talk • contribs) .

As other users have already stated, the way we treat sources here differs from how other wikis do so, including the Spider-Man wikis (if they are what you are referring to). It is the editor's job to adhere to those specified policies, which in this case primarily revolves around Tardis:Valid sources. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:31, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, it was meant as an example scenario in regards to how the policies on this site state sources are taken into account. Again I feel like everyone I have spoken with is somehow so adamant to keep this name for the main reference that no one is taking any of the points being made into account. How can you specifically consider something as the utmost valid source if you haven't actually listened to the audios or read the book. I am just utterly astounded. --Buffyann23 ☎ 18:41, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I'm jumping in. And first of all let me say that I have listened to the Big Finish audios and I see no problem with Borisashton's suggestion of the name "Doctor (Journey's End)" (or something similar such as "Meta-crisis Doctor" - without the "tenth" - which, in my opinion, is no different from the name of the "War Doctor" page - he's been called both a meta-crisis and the Doctor in-universe) with redirects for the others. That being said, The name Corin should at least be mentioned in the article such as how Borisashton has suggested. Whether we like it or not, the story did happen. It's a licenced story and therefore canon. Yes, it's conflicting, but as far as I'm aware, it is not explicitly stated in-universe (author's comments are not valid sources other than for behind the scenes info) that it is a alternate timeline or whatever. Do I like the name Corin or the some of the other continuity errors in the story? No. But it doesn't really matter what I like. It's canon and should be mentioned at least once or twice on the page, even if it is using the "according to one account" phrase. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. LauraBatham ☎ 03:53, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand why this Wiki is still debating this. Multiple statements have been made that there is an understanding that conflicts within the canon of the show often occur given the show’s vast scope and the fact that authors do not always agree on how characters would behave and thus how these are handled by writing different sections on how one account plays out and how another account plays out. On this page, many fans have posted numerous examples as to how “The Turning of the Tide” and the Big Finish stories “The Siege of Big Ben” and “Flight into Hull” conflict and cannot be connected. Here is a straight to the point summary of these examples (with some correction of my earlier math which only solidifies the point, really):

In TTotT, the Doctor ( or “Corin”) and Rose live on the South Coast, working as a GP and a teacher respectively. In the Big Finish stories, the Doctor and Rose live in London and both work for UNIT based in Big Ben. The Doctor is a scientific advisor and Rose assists him as well as going out on missions off-base.

In TTotT, Rose refuses to call the Doctor “Doctor” which results in the “name” Corin (not even going to get into how badly done the reasoning for that is here). The Meta-Crisis Doctor DOES NOT CHOOSE THIS NAME himself. Rose gives it to him, saying that she is getting to name him “like a dog.” In Big Finish, the Meta-Crisis Doctor is called “Doctor” (with several instances of “the Doctor”) over 60 times by both Jackie Tyler and other characters (though given the structure of these stories the majority of these are by Jackie).

The timeline for TTotT has scenes set days after Journey’s End and 2 years after. In Big Finish, the stories are set around two to two and a half years after Journey’s End. The reasoning for this is that Jackie was 3 months pregnant when the Doctor spoke to Rose at the end of Doomsday. Stolen Earth/Journey’s End takes place around a year and a half to two years after Jackie would’ve given birth to Tony, making him, of course, 1.5-2 years old at the time of the Meta-Crisis’ arrival in Pete’s World. In both Big Finish stories, Tony is said to be 4 years old by his Mum, Jackie. So, as I said, the Big Finish stories would be set 2 years after his arrival which would obviously set the stories at around the same time which would be impossible given Rose’s own pregnancy in TTotT and her active-duty-ness in the Big Finish version of events.

In TTotT, Rose does not allow “Corin” to even build a new sonic screwdriver for fear he will “get ideas above his station” (again, not even touching the awful characterization here but it is there). In the Big Finish stories he is, again, UNIT’s scientific advisor which would necessitate his working with various gadgets. Big Finish also reinstates the deleted “TARDIS coral” scene as canon as he is working on growing the TARDIS in his lab at UNIT.

In TTotT, Rose is heavily pregnant and gives birth towards the end of the story. Given the timelines of these stories as outlined above, she should either still be pregnant or have recently given birth in the Big Finish stories but neither her pregnancy (as she is out on a mission in “Siege of Big Ben”) nor her child (pretty obvious that Jackie would not be able to stop herself talking about her grandchild if even given the slightest chance) are ever mentioned.

So, with all of these conflicting timelines and characterizations of what the Doctor and Rose’s lives were like after the events of Journey’s End, I do not understand why there is still an argument to be had as to how these two stories may be connected. There are far more big differences than similarities. There are far more arguments for how they are separate than for how they “may” be connected in some way.

In addition, I also poked around the Wiki’s policies a bit, and found the “naming conventions” page where I found this:

“By forum consensus, the titles of articles about individual characters should be the name by which the character was most commonly known in the Doctor Who universe.”

Now, I understand the caveat that “Meta-Crisis Doctor” is never used in-universe so it’s a “conjecture” or whatever. However, the Meta-Crisis Doctor is referred to as “Doctor”/“the Doctor” nearly 70 times in three of the four stories that he has appeared in so far. “Corin” is the invention of one story. So, I would argue that he is mostly known as “Doctor” much like other regenerations of the Time Lord.

Numbered names are rarely used in-universe for the Doctor (the Day of the Doctor novelization even makes the argument that the Doctor does not thing of themselves this way anyways) yet this Wiki still uses titles such as “Tenth Doctor” and “Twelfth Doctor” for not only titles of pages but also uses these “names” in the bodies of the related articles. “Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor” thus seems like a perfectly logical and perfectly sound name for this article and for use in any links or information not related to “The Turning of the Tide.”

Not to mention that coming across the name “Corin” randomly with no context at all could be very confusing for those who have never read or heard of this one story as, again, it really isn’t the name that the character is most known by either in or out of universe.

“Corin” is a name that can be freely used when discussing the events specifically related to “The Turning of the Tide.” It makes sense and you’ll get no argument from me there. However, given the points that I’ve summarized above, it is my firm conviction that the title of this page should remain as “Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor” and that any information not pertaining to the short story should use either the name “Meta-Crisis (Tenth) Doctor” or just plain “Doctor” as it is for all the other pages for regenerations of this character.

I hope that the mods of this site will consider all of these things before arriving at a decision. But in my mind, there is no argument that can be made to connect “The Turning of the Tide” with the Big Finish stories about the Meta-Crisis Doctor.

Currently I am working on detailed summaries of both “The Siege of Big Ben” (already added) and “Flight Into Hull" (a work in progress). I hope that these summaries will help those who have not actually listened to these stories to better understand why there is no way that they could be connected to this new short story. Oimatchstickman ☎ 04:05, October 29, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

It's still a debate because it hasn't been resolved yet. This is a big wiki, so it is up to the admins to make final decisions on debates like this. Shambala108 ☎ 04:08, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add that we do have a definitive time for the Big Finish audios. In Journey's End, Jackie says Pete is on the nursery run. According to my research, nursery is for three and four year olds in the United Kingdom. Since in the audios Jackie mentions Rose having no A-levels to Beryl, I would assume that Pete's World uses the same education system. In the Big Finish short trips, it's stated that Tony is four, so the audios take place within the year of Journey's End. That is before Rose gets pregnant, and that would make sense because Jackie never mentions having a grandchild. And, really, do any of us believe that Jackie Tyler would tell two half hour stories without mentioning a grandchild at all?

But then in the audios, the Doctor (as he is referred to in the audios and Journey's End and not Corin) is growing a TARDIS. This is an in-universe conflict. In Turning, Rose wouldn't let Corin (as he is referred to in Turning and not in Seige/Flight) build any sort of technology. Corin never gets beyond attempting to build a sonic. According to Turning:

'What is it?' said Corin, and Rose bit her lip. He knew, right, didn't he? He knew he didn't have his sonic, or a TARDIS or anything he needed to do clever jiggery-pokery stuff. She didn't want him getting... ideas above his station, she supposed.

And later:

Oh curses, for his screwdriver. He'd tried to build one, but Rose had told him off for it and distracted him and he'd abandoned the project. Now he truly wished he hadn't.

I still maintain that the two should be handled as conflicting accounts (According to one source, and according to another source) based on this evidence. In one possible timeline, Rose and the Meta-crisis rent a cabin in Norway and he takes up the name Corin, and so on with the events of The Turning of the Tide. In a second possible timeline, the Doctor and Rose are working for UNIT with him as the Scientific Advisor and Rose assisting him and working as a field agent, they attempt to grow a TARDIS, and the events proceed according to Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull. Corin should rightly be listed as an alias, but should not be regarded as the main alias over the Doctor. Both have equal value in their respective timelines.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 05:17, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I need to post some guidelines/rules for posting here.

Do not start a new heading if you are continuing the same topic.
Do not move/change/remove your post if another user has posted after yours.
New posts go at the bottom/end of the discussion. If you are replying to someone further up, you can use their name to show which message you are responding to.

Shambala108 ☎ 04:17, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how it can be a real debate then if the "admins make the final decisions". We are providing contextual facts taken directly from the Big Finish audios, proving the stories don't tie together. That would be like someone deciding your username is now your actual name in real life because you used it on here. Which is absurd right? So why would you assign a specific name to an entire page with other references that NEVER used it? --Buffyann23 ☎ 05:23, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I feel like I need to butt in again. What Buffyann23 says makes a lot of sense, which some of you seem to be dismissing completely. Also, we had the same similar discussion on the Doc Holliday page. I suggested to rename the page "John Holliday" based on the novel of the TV story he appears in and the decision was to go by the name most people knew him as, which was "Doc Holliday" despite "Doc" not being his actual name. And here you are suggesting that it doesn't actually matter because that ONE story chose a different name, which is not what people know him by. If I were to tell someone online that "Corin said [something]", I can bet you all that 87% of the replies would be "Who???". But if I said "Meta-Crisis said [something]" every single one would know who I was talking about. Food for thought. --DCLM ☎ 07:16, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

And let me make it clear that I am not opposed to any alternative to the naming of this article. Whether it's naming this article "The Doctor (Journey's End)" and just keeping "Corin" as the first word, the name, of the article with aliases, or naming the article "Corin" with every other article, except the novel using "Corin", using "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" and redirecting to "Corin" (which is indeed the same thing done with "The General" (redirecting to "Kenossium")). Just DON'T have every single reference on this Wiki refer to him as "Corin", as I can guarantee that many people looking through the Wikia will have a problem with that. --DCLM ☎ 07:35, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

Gingergallifreyan, I think you're conflating two things. We can split accounts on the page and go "According to one account, he went by Corin, while according to another…". But that is not the same thing as treating the two accounts as alternate timeline. Rather, they are treated as two sources of information about the same timeline — as if we were historians with conflicting testimonies about the same events. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 09:54, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

That's a neat way of looking at it Scrooge. I suppose, as fans/editors, we are historians presented with two sources (Doctor went as "Corin" versus Doctor went as "Doctor") and we are attempting to determine which account is the "truth" (as close to the truth as we can get anyway.) Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 10:16, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

Ok but myself and many others have given overwhelming evidence that there is no way that these two stories can coexist within the same universe. The conflict in information is far too great. It does not only boil down to "Doctor" or "Corin" but also all of the other conflicts that I outlined above. "Corin" is the timeline presented in Jenny T Colgan's story. "The Doctor" is the Big Finish Timeline. If we're going to start bringing in trying to determine which ones is "the truth", then honestly we'd have to go with the Big Finish version as TTotT is horrifically out of character for Rose Tyler given the character development that she went through in the show. This article does need to be split between the book and the Big Finish audios. It should not use the name "Corin" in the main body of the article and it DEFINITELY shouldn't be re-named as "Corin." "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" works, as does referring to him as "the Doctor." Oimatchstickman ☎ 11:14, October 29, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

It is a real debate because there is a difference of opinions. It is a common mistake to think that one's arguments are so persuasive, or "overwhelming", that no one can reasonably disagree. Others may simply not be that overwhelmed.

Doctor Who is permeated with inconsistent accounts and continuity errors. Many of them do not result in splitting alternative timelines. For instance, UNIT dating controversy did not result in all UNIT stories split into multiple alternative timelines depending on which dating protocol a story subscribes to. Moreover, writers have attempted to find creative way of explaining the inconsistency in-universe. Another example of a direct factual contradiction is the age (and birth year) of Toshiko Sato. The discrepancy was pointed out, I believe, by fans here on the wiki and eventually retconned in AUDIO: torchwood_cascade_CDRIP.tor.

By comparison, the contradictions mentioned in this discussion are less direct. They are more of a contradiction by implication, sometimes based on the assumption that Pete's World is sufficiently close to our world in terms of nursery age, schooling, etc. Assuming this is, to a large extent, a speculation, given the known differences between the two universes, e.g., President of Great Britain. And speculation is prohibited here on the wiki.

As already noted, DW writers are quite adept at finding non-trivial explanations for apparent discontinuities. Reconciling the the accounts of the three stories mentioned is not out of the question and not even that hard to do, if BBC, who owns the character, would so choose.

It is absolutely true that this discussion is young and other fans should be allowed to weigh in and provide additional evidence relevant to the case. Those who have already stated all the facts they have can simply sit back, relax and learn how other fans think about the stories they all love. It is often quite instructive in that it literally provides a new perspective on things. Amorkuz ☎ 11:27, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

Oimatchstickman, why don't you for a start list down the contradictions between the stories?, then we might get a better overview about how to handle it... --DCLM ☎ 11:31, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I feel like an interesting precedent would be the way Susan Foreman's post-Dalek Invasion life is handled on the page. It's in loose chronological order, acknowledging that not everything matches up but not splitting the accounts altogether.

That npage is also a good precedent as the name is concerned, come to that. The choice between "Susan Foreman" and "Susan English" is all in all not too different from that between "the Doctor (Journey's End)" and "Corin". Compare also "the Doctor" vs. "Dr Who". In both cases, we acknowledge that the characters, depending on accounts, went by one or the other without seeming aware that they flipped between two different aliases; the page name is the most well-known name IRL of these competing "most common name in-universe", and paragraphs use the name used in the sources to which they correspond. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 11:36, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

DCLM, I already did this above in my longer response to this talk page. Oimatchstickman ☎ 12:27, October 29, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

Scrooge, I see the difference what you're saying. I don't think it's necessary to treat them as possible separate timelines. I'm just trying to create helpful discussion and maybe I'm not familiar with the exact language that is used in these types of discussions. That is the point I'm trying to make, though, that they should be treated as opposing sources.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 12:48, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

That's typically the way to go about it. --DCLM ☎ 13:07, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

And round and round we go again. I am going to try to state this as clearly as I possibly can since no one seems to understand what I'm saying. I am not disputing the fact that you need to include the name "Corin" on the character page. No matter how much us fans HATE it, the author put it out there. You consider it canon. Fine. Whatever. What I AM saying is that right now, every single reference you have on the character's Wiki page lists him as THAT NAME. Which is WRONG. He DID NOT go by THAT NAME in Journey's End. He DID NOT go by THAT NAME in Big Finish. I don't understand as to why everything can't be changed back to "The Doctor(Journey's End)" and then have a separate topic on the page dedicated to the Target Novel where he DOES go by THAT NAME. You can't tell me that this isn't logical. I mean, someone please explain to me why it is SO IMPORTANT that THAT NAME get preference as his identity in every single reference in the article when he DID NOT USE IT IN ANYTHING ELSE. In addition, the section that says "he chose to go by a new name" needs to be changed. He DIDN'T CHOOSE THE NAME. According to Jenny Colgan, Rose named him. "LIKE A DOG." --Buffyann23 ☎ 13:37, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I have to insist that users who cannot keep a cool head about them make a break from this discussion until they can. The above message by Buffyann23 is unacceptable for several reasons.

Firstly, the capital letters are a way of shouting. Shouting at your opponent is not the way to persuade them, and is certainly not allowed here.

Secondly, there is an erroneous separation into fans on the one side and wiki editors on the other. We are all fans. Disagreement to Buffyann23 does not mean that a person is less of a fan than her. Respect to your opponents is not optional in discussions on the wiki.

Thirdly, she writes "us fans HATE it". I would strongly recommend everyone to speak only for themselves. It is very unlikely that all fans of Doctor Who necessarily hate this name. But more importantly, Tardis:Neutral point of view states "Ignore your own opinions — and those of fan websites. If you can't prove it with a high quality source, don't write it." When a person admits that they hate something, it undermines their credibility on the issue. Decisions on the wiki should be based exclusively on valid sources, not on one's feelings.

Finally, many people upthread referred again and again to "canon". I advise them all to (re-)read Tardis:Canon policy, which states that this wiki does not use the concept of a canon in determining validity or in any other issues. Amorkuz ☎ 14:12, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

Then based upon what I'm being told, I don’t understand how this Wiki can be considered a legitimate resource for people who want to learn about the show. Amorkuz, you just stated that you “don’t use the concept of cannon in determining the validity of issues.” So in other words, that’s basically like saying that the people on this site can just write whatever they want and then lock the post and everyone else has to accept it as gospel. The whole grievance of this debate is that one story is being given preferential treatment over anything else that has been released, was in the show, or has been publicly stated by RTD and in turn is then forcing people to accept a name that should rightfully only be referenced to in a section talking directly about the new Target Novel. Yet right now, when you look at the current page, the name is being used to describe the character in the Big Finish audios as well as the stuff referencing Journey’s End, which was completely separate from that short story and even the author stated that while she enjoyed the Big Finish stuff, she decided to go in a different direction from what they did. So I just want to clarify right now for my own piece of mind. As I now understand it, based on the comments left by the mods on this page, you guys 1. Don’t care about cannon and it doesn’t factor into what is published on the page. and 2. Do not take into account any public declarations/comments made by the author stating whether or not something is tied into a specific storyline, but still “Could care less what this guy is called.” Is that correct? If that's the case, then I will no longer be using this site for anything DW related because I can't trust the validity of the information being provided to be taken from actual documented sources. Good Day Sir. --Buffyann23 ☎ 15:00, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

I can only recommend you read T:VS. What we mean when we say we don't use "canon" is that all licensed media are equally valid to us. But we certainly don't allow in fanfic, fan theories or all that jazz. It's a long way away from anyone being able to write what they like.

It is true that we don't take into account statements by DW authors in in-universe articles; we only use what's directly stated in stories as a source. Arguable, perhaps, but hardly pandemonium or a show of unreliability. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:08, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Scrooge MacDuck, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. If the author was licensed by the BBC to write the story and makes a public statement (and not hearsay) that she went in a different direction from other licensed material that was released then it should be treated as such rather than lumped together with one taking preference over the other and forcing the previous material to then conform to someone else's ideals. If I were to suddenly gain license to write a say, Twelfth Doctor story and rather than call him The Doctor I decide he now wants to be known as Theta Sigma. Would you then change Twelve's entire page to "Theta Sigma" or would you only have it in a separate section for that specific story? --Buffyann23 ☎ 15:20, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Scrooge MacDuck, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree. If the author was licensed by the BBC to write the story and makes a public statement (and not hearsay) that she went in a different direction from other licensed material that was released then it should be treated as such rather than lumped together with one taking preference over the other and forcing the previous material to then conform to someone else's ideals. --Buffyann23 ☎ 15:20, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

First, I'm only explaining the Wiki's current policies; I don't agree with all of them personally.

Second, what you describe isn't what I’m advocating for based on said current policies, though I can't speak for other people in this conversation. I'm undecided on whether we should split accounts completely or try to stay chronological, but I do agree with you that the name "Corin" shouldn't be used in paragraphs concerning the BF stories.

In other words, we agree on rather more than you think. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:28, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Let's run through that scenario again. If the Twelfth Doctor was to adopt a different name would it not be appropriate to note this perfectly legitimate name in the lead and explain that for a not inconsiderable time this was his preferred vocative? Then, this new name would take precedence over "the Doctor" in the story/ies it was used for. Let's say for the sake of argument this happened between Last Chrstmas and The Magician's Apprentice. In our coverage of TMA would it not be helpful to say that by the time of this story he had gone back to using "the Doctor"? Finally, it would be helpful would it not to make light of this extraordinary situation by adding a note in the behind the scenes situation? This is exactly what I proposed and you seem very opposed to it. --Borisashton ☎ 17:27, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Borisashton, so you're saying if you were a new fan, you wouldn't be completely confused if you were looking for the page dedicated to "The Twelfth Doctor" but all you could find was "Theta Sigma" because one story who decided to name him something else because they "wanted to go in a different direction" took precedence? Again, I don't understand why the page should be renamed for one story, which again is not tied to anything else. I could see you saying he went from one name and then changed it back if the stories were tied together but if you actually listen to the audios or read the book it is clearly obvious they would be considered two separate timelines. Therefore the page should be kept as "The Doctor/Journey's End and then as you said, include a paragraph dedicated to the Target Novel in which you can say "In this story, he was given the name "Corin" by Rose" and then explain why. Renaming the entire article as "Corin" or using that name in reference to the Big Finish stuff or things that happened in the actual show would be a complete misrepresentation of the character and a complete disrespect to not only RTD, who created the character, but to the other people who were given creative license to display their portrayal of the character as well. --Buffyann23 ☎ 18:40, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

I literally never said in that last comment I wanted the page to be renamed "Corin". Nobody would be able to find the page if that was the case! Also, the page isn't currently named "The Doctor (Journey's End)" as you seem to think. I suggested that alternative and it has not been agreed upon by a consensus yet or ruled upon by an admin. Just to clarify, you think that a sentence such as "Sometime later, he had returned to calling himself the Doctor" that precedes the BF stuff would be unacceptable? --Borisashton ☎ 18:53, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

@Buffy: Yeah, we're still talking at cross purposes, Buffy. In Boris's hypothetical example, we wouldn't rename the page "Theta Sigma". We'd keep the page itself at "Twelfth Doctor"; the first paragraph would state "The Twelfth Doctor, known for significant parts of his life as Theta Sigma…"; and the name would be used for the parts of the Twelfth Doctor's biography based on stories in which he calls himself "Theta Sigma", but not in others.

The only point of dissent between us is that what we would like to do is have one chronological biography, which acknowledges that there are discrepancies in some details, but still basically acts like all the various conflicting accounts are about the same character's life. Whereas you want to treat them as separate timelines altogether. But it's the difference between:

The Meta-Crisis Doctor then took the name of Corin and had a child with Rose. Some years later, he had adventures with UNIT, although that account also held that he kept the name of Doctor and gave no hint that he had fathered a child.

and:

According to one account, the Meta-Crisis Doctor renamed himself Corin and had a child with Rose. According to another, he kept the name of Doctor and had some adventures with UNIT.

But the page's name is never "Corin" in any of those schemes, nor do we use the name to describe the events of the Big Finish stories (or "the Doctor" to describe the events of Turning of the Tide, for that matter). --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:57, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Right, because none of that is confusing at all. Ultimately it's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm doing nothing but talking in circles. It's obvious this site is going to adopt what it wants to adopt regardless and as I said previously, I will just have to look elsewhere for better documented DW sources in the future. And Scrooge MacDuck, I recommend you re-read the current page as it does refer to The Doctor as "Corin" for not only the Big Finish stuff, but stuff from the show as well. Specifically under the headings "Exiled to Pete's World" and "Personality"--Buffyann23 ☎ 19:21, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

I'm talking about what I think we should do, not about what's already been done. I too have some issues with the way the page is right now. Hence my taking part in this discussion on how best to change it. We disagree on what exactly to change, is all.

Speaking of which, I agree that it's unacceptable for the Big Finish stuff where he obviously hasn't rejected the name of Doctor. However, it seems fine, to me, to use "Corin" to speak about the character in Journey's End, just as much as "the Doctor"; he's unnamed there, so both later retcons about what he calls himself are equally valid. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:27, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Scrooge MacDuck, he is not unnamed in Journey's End. By your logic, every Doctor would be "unnamed" in every episode (or most episodes). He is referred to as "the Doctor" by himself and every other character in the episode. Big Finish referring to him as the Doctor is not a retcon, it is consistent with Journey's End. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Badwolfgirl8 (talk • contribs) .

I propose this solution then. Have two separate pages. One that follows the events of Journey's End and Big Finish which seems to be following that storyline and then a separate page that follows the new short story's version of events.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.107.80.135 (talk).

Hah! Certainly not. Again, we don't have separate page for Susan Foreman in the Big Finish stories where she stays on Earth and then joins the Time War, versus a page for Susan Foreman in the EDAs where she leaves Earth in the Master's TARDIS for parts unknown.

Besides which, it's obviously the case that Turning of the Tide follows the storyline of Journey's End, it just sort of seems to branch off in a separate direction to the Big Finish stories. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 21:41, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

I propose the first two paragraphs (before Biography) get changed back to "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" (since that is a broader term that applies to all of his media and is more recognisible by the audience), as well as the paragraphs that don't refer to the target book: the two paragraphs in Biography that refer to the BF audios, that is the last two, as well as the the paragraphs on Personality and Behind the Scenes.Badwolfrose8 ☎ 22:08, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

I think either of Scrooge's two examples are great. Not confusing in the slightest. (Though I do agree with Badwolfgirl about Journey's End, he is referred to as Doctor in that story.) Also, I would just like to add for some of the newer users, yes the page currently does not look great, but this is mainly due to the admins having to lock it stop the edit wars and I have no doubt that the admins will clean it up once they have made their decision, whatever that may be. And they won't make their decision until they close this discussion so there is no use repeating things just because the page has not been changed yet. It most likely will be changed in some form or another, but not until the discussion is closed. These things can take time. LauraBatham ☎ 22:29, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Scrooge, I would like to jump in and say you've said exactly what I've been trying to articulate. Same meaning, just maybe it's not been known exactly how to phrase it in the language of the Wiki: Turning of the Tide does follow the events of Journey's End, but it branches off in a different direction from Big Finish--that's what is meant when I and several others have used the phrase "different timelines." But, of course, I can only speak for myself.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 23:32, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

Trying to reach a solution

Okay, we've passed the first limit of the lockdown of the page and are nearing the end of the second lock, and we're still without a solution. After reading all of the (very heated) argument documented on this very page, having read the short story and having heard the Short Trips from BF, I'll try to propose a solution within the Wikis boundaries (but bear in mind to anyone reading this - I'm not an admin so my word is in no way a "final decision" or nithing of the sort):

Two grounds that we must take in considered (and has been pointed out several times, even if in the heat of the discussion it got somewhat misinterpreted and got both sides to get more heated) is T:CANON and Tardis:Neutral point of view. When the policy says "Give all media equal weight", it means just that. The short story isn't worth less than the audios because it's a short story. Note that I'm not arguing at all about the usage of either name at this point, nor will I for a while. Arguing that the name "Corin" is bad or anything of the sort doesn't help resolve the issue, because wiki policy doesn't concer individual views on the subject. The name Corin exists, and is available for usage on the wiki.

Now, for what has caused the most part of the trouble: "where to use the name Corin", and "how should this page be named".

Where to use the name Corin - I won't try to argue that the short story and the audios fit perfectly - they don't. But then again, there are hundreds of stories that don't (withing the TV show in itself), and the wiki hasn't crashed and burned because of this, nor will it because of this situation. So, given that, it's my understanding that it's better to use "Corin" on the context of this story and this story only.
How to name this page - another problematic issue that has caused a lot of trouble here. "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a conjecture, becuase the exact term Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor has never been used to call this character in-universe. In fact, the script of Journey's End doesn't even spell it Meta-Crisis - it spells Metacrisis. If anything, we should rename the page to Metacrisis Tenth Doctor. However, the character obviously has a name in-universe (be it "The Doctor" or be it "Corin") , so we don't really need a conjecture. And a lot of people called for T:CHAR NAMES, but that policy is, frankly, more for nicknames (such as Amy Pond vs. Amelia Pond) or married names (such as Jo Grant vs Jo Jones).
Conclusion on this issue: we have two IU names which we could use, The Doctor (Journey's End) or Corin (Jorney's End). Obviously the first is much more recognisable to a casual reader, and would cause much less confusion, while not breaking any policies. However, I absolutely think that Corin (Jorney's End), Metacrisis Tenth Doctor (the "correct" spelling as per the script) and even Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor should be redirects. The reason to keep the "wrong" spelling as a redirect is: we've reached a point where the name is common enough among fans, even reaching, for example, Doctor Who: Legacy (see Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor), a game produced with a BBC license which had to get everything directly aproved from them. So, if the name passed through them, it ough to be at least a redirect.
According to one account/Alternate timelines - there is zero evidence in the short story that it takes place in a different timeline than the one from the audio stories. Do they differ in stuff? Yes, but there is enough time between the timeline we "crafted" between the short story and the BF short trips to allow: the career changes, the Rose behaviour and the location where they live. Any argument of "if Jackie had a grandson she would certainly speak about it all the time" is pure speculation of our part, and therefore not much of an argument. Both I and other users have proposed a logical way of dealing with the different accounts without resorting to the "according to one account".
Jenny T Colgans comment on her story having "gone a different way" - I already adressed this once, but I'll say it again: jumping from this to "her story is set in a different timeline" is an enourmous reach. For my full argument on that, please see Talk:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor#Metacrisis/Tentoo.

So, all that said, does anyone have anything to add to the discussion (please, please in a calm, non-heated and civil way) so that we may end it soon-ish? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 15:47, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

@@ Line 346: / Line 346: @@
 Scrooge, I would like to jump in and say you've said exactly what I've been trying to articulate. Same meaning, just maybe it's not been known exactly how to phrase it in the language of the Wiki: ''Turning of the Tide does follow the events of Journey's End, but it branches off in a different direction from Big Finish''--that's what is meant when I and several others have used the phrase "different timelines." But, of course, I can only speak for myself.--[[User:Gingergallifreyan125|Gingergallifreyan125]] [[User talk:Gingergallifreyan125|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:32, October 30, 2019 (UTC)
+== Trying to reach a solution ==
+Okay, we've passed the first limit of the lockdown of the page and are nearing the end of the second lock, and we're still without a solution. After reading all of the (very heated) argument documented on this very page, having read the short story and having heard the ''Short Trips'' from BF, I'll try to propose a solution '''within the Wikis boundaries''' (but bear in mind to anyone reading this - I'm not an admin so my word is in no way a "final decision" or nithing of the sort):
+Two grounds that we ''must'' take in considered (and has been pointed out several times, even if in the heat of the discussion it got somewhat misinterpreted and got both sides to get more heated) is [[T:CANON]] and [[Tardis:Neutral point of view]]. When the policy says "Give all media equal weight", it means just that. The short story isn't worth less than the audios because it's a short story. Note that I'm not arguing at all about the usage of either name at this point, nor will I for a while. Arguing that the name "Corin" is bad or anything of the sort doesn't help resolve the issue, because wiki policy doesn't concer individual views on the subject. The name Corin exists, and is available for usage on the wiki.
+Now, for what has caused the most part of the trouble: "''where'' to use the name Corin", and "how should this page be named".
+* Where to use the name Corin - I won't try to argue that the short story and the audios fit perfectly - they don't. But then again, there are hundreds of stories that don't (withing the TV show in itself),  and the wiki hasn't crashed and burned because of this, nor will it because of this situation. So, given that, it's my understanding that it's better to use "Corin" on the context of this story and this story only.
+* How to name this page - another problematic issue that has caused a lot of trouble here. "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a [[template:Conjecture|conjecture]], becuase the exact term '''Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor''' has never been used to call this character in-universe. In fact, the [http://web.archive.org/web/20130810134742/http://www.thewriterstale.com/pdfs/Doctor%20Who%204%20Ep.13%20-%20Shooting%20Script%20-%20Journeys%20End%20-%2031.03%2008.pdf script of ''Journey's End''] doesn't even spell it '''Meta-Crisis''' - it spells '''Metacrisis'''. If anything, we should rename the page to '''Metacrisis Tenth Doctor'''. However, the character obviously has a name in-universe (be it "The Doctor" or be it "Corin") , so we don't really need a conjecture. And a lot of people called for [[T:CHAR NAMES]], but that policy is, frankly, more for nicknames (such as Amy Pond vs. Amelia Pond) or married names (such as Jo Grant vs Jo Jones).
+* Conclusion on this issue: we have two IU names which we could use, [[The Doctor (Journey's End)]] or [[Corin (Jorney's End)]]. Obviously the first is much more recognisable to a casual reader, and would cause much less confusion, while not breaking any policies. ''However'', I absolutely think that [[Corin (Jorney's End)]], [[Metacrisis Tenth Doctor]] (the "correct" spelling as per the script) and even [[Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor]] should be redirects. The reason to keep the "wrong" spelling as a redirect is: we've reached a point where the name is common enough among fans, even reaching, for example, ''Doctor Who: Legacy'' (see {{iw|dwlegacy|Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor}}), a game produced with a BBC license which had to get '''everything''' directly aproved from them. So, if the name passed through them, it ough to be at least a redirect.
+* According to one account/Alternate timelines - there is '''zero''' evidence '''in the short story''' that it takes place in a different timeline than the one from the audio stories. Do they differ in stuff? Yes, but there is enough time between the timeline we "crafted" between the short story and the BF short trips to allow: the career changes, the Rose behaviour and the location where they live. Any argument of "if Jackie had a grandson she would certainly speak about it all the time" is pure speculation of our part, and therefore not much of an argument. Both I and other users have proposed a logical way of dealing with the different accounts without resorting to the "according to one account".
+* Jenny T Colgans comment on her story having "gone a different way" - I already adressed this once, but I'll say it again: jumping from this to "her story is set in a different timeline" is an '''enourmous''' reach. For my full argument on that, please see [[Talk:Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor#Metacrisis/Tentoo]].
+So, all that said, does anyone have anything to add to the discussion (''please, '''please''' in a calm, non-heated and civil way'') so that we may end it soon-ish? [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:47, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

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