Talk:Doctor Who: Lockdown!

Rename reason

Name changed as stated by creator here Toqgers ☎ 08:07, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

missing number

There is a Watchalong number 8 and number 10, but where is number 9? --Rübenbrei ☎ 19:46, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

I think that someone thought Human Nature / Family of Blood were to be counted seperately. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 19:52, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Paternoster Gang

Is the Paternoster Gang watch-along really part of this event? It had nothing to do with Emily Cook or the Lockdown! brand. It was organised solely by Big Finish. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 19:52, May 5, 2020 (UTC)

Other Watchalongs

If we are to keep track of ALL tweetalong events during COVID-19 pandemics, I think these events should be added:

• Spyfall watchalong hosted by BBC America. Although it didn't use hashtag, Sacha Dhawan joined the watchalong and tweeted his comments.
• Two Torchwood watchalongs hosted by Radio Times.
• Upcoming The Three Doctors watchalong hosted by TardisMonkey (who arranged The Five Doctors watchalong)

But is it really necessary? I mean, anyone can start a tweetalong event. If I arrange a tweetalong event, should it be covered by this article? I think we need some criteria for this article's coverage.--Wholmesian ☎ 05:44, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

I removed the Paternoser Gang watch-along because frankly it has nothing to do with this event, but someone else added it to a newly created “other” section. I agree that a I don’t think these should be covered, anyone can host a watch-along but none of these are part of the same event. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 09:32, May 6, 2020 (UTC)

That does seem a bit of a shame to remove The Five Doctors and the Big Finish ones, I agree that not every watch-along should be posted, but maybe keep it to anything endorsed or organised by Emily Cook or the BBC? I think that's a fair way of doing it if the "other" section is reinstated. VeryFerociousDrama ☎ 10:35, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

I think it's clear that any and all post-Lockdown, COVID-19-era Doctor Who tweetalongs are inspired by Lockdown!. For that reason, so long as the deleted COVID-19 page remains deleted, I think this is the best page to document all the ‘official’ watchalongs. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:50, May 7, 2020 (UTC)

Non-Lockdown stories

so weve established that non-lockdown watchalongs shouldnt be included. so why sould non-lockdown stories like 'how the monk got his habit'? DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎

The issue is that the other watchalongs aren't part of any centralised event (or, in TARDIS Monkey's case, aren't in any way shape or form acknowledged by the BBC or other rightsholders). That obviously doesn't apply to something like Message from the Doctor.

Personally, I think they should remain included on this page, if they're covered on the Wiki, until such a time as we have a COVID-19 page again. They might not be branded as Lockdown!, but these "side-releases" are clearly revolving in the same noosphere, following the trail of the ball that Emily Cook got rolling. Sorry for the tortured metaphor. We should have a list of these somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.

This is what the title of the section, "Associated releases" is supposed to convey. They're associated with Lockdown!, so until we get a better idea, that's where we list them; but they're not necessarily part of Lockdown!. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:51, May 17, 2020 (UTC)

an issue to be discussed elsewhere. you shouldt just pile unrelated information here just because another area doesnt exist. the other watch alongs have been decided no to be placed her, and so the nonrelated stories should not be here too. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎ 14:52, May 17, 2020 (UTC)

That's not your place to decide and it's not mine either. It's the place of an admin, after a lengthy debate involving the rest of the community. Until then, Tardis:Do not disrupt this wiki to prove a point applies. You started this discussion and it must be aired out. The best thing to do would be to create a Panopticon thread, and I'll go do so right now. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:59, May 17, 2020 (UTC)

the information should be removed until it is decided that it is allowed by an admin then... information about non-lockdown stories (which you yourself said deserves to be elsewhere) should not reside on the lockdown page - and theres already a president with the non-lockdown watches being removed. it is incredbly misleading. DiSoRiEnTeD1 ☎

I've started the Panopticon thread. And I would dispute the idea that it is "incredibly misleading". Again, we're calling these Associated releases, not 100%-on-brand-Lockdwon-originals. A bunch of people have been editing this page in the last few months, including admins, not to mention the oodles more passive readers; you're the first to complain. You do not get to make a decision about this and neither do I. Go argue your point in the forums, and an admin will rule over it eventually, but in the meantme, Tardis:You are bound by current policy. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:06, May 17, 2020 (UTC)

Fear is a Superpower Comic

The LOCKDOWN! YouTube channel also release a narrated comic strip featuring the life of Danny Pink entitled Fear is a Superpower. It's not exactly a webcast, I'm assuming it still goes under the story list? TheFartyDoctor ^Talk 18:55, May 20, 2020 (UTC)

Sure! There are already other things than webcasts in the story list. Doctor Who and the Time War, for one. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:00, May 20, 2020 (UTC)

Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery

Okay, we're straying into edit war territory here. Let's discuss the subject of this project that was posted on the Lockdown! youtube channel. It's a scene of Vincent and the Doctor (TV story), when Starry Night is being conceived, that leads into a series of fan art, and then the gallery scene with "pile of good things and bad things". Does this merit inclusion on this wiki and inclusion in this series? In my view, clearly not. This does not itself constitute a story, as there's a scene, a harsh cut to montage, and then a harsh cut to another scene, with thematic coherence but no narrative coherence. Even putting that aside, there's no new narrative material here, just reposting clips of an already existing episode, at best you should make a note on the episode page, and this wiki is not the place for fan art. And finally, not everything this youtube page does is noteworthy, as evidenced by other videos existing that aren't being talked about on this wiki. Let's discuss. Najawin ☎ 01:22, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

So the issue here isn't "is this part of the event". Technically anyone tweeting while watching the episode is part of the event. It's a tweetalong. It's "is this part of the event and is this something the wiki should cover". I think the reasons I've given establish it's not. Not everything this youtube video posts is worthy of being covered, and this clearly isn't supposed to be taken to be in universe, unlike your example. So, funnily enough, this Wiki actually didn't appear in The Zygon Isolation. Rather, an N-Space version of it did. Which is sort of tangential to the main point, but still defuses it nicely. Najawin ☎ 01:39, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

Well, N-Space is just where Doctor Who takes place. And since this is where the Osgoods exist, sort of by definition they're in N-Space. This isn't speculation. It clearly can't be our wiki, as Doctor Who is not real in our world, but there is Doctor Who (N-Space), and associated fansites. As for why this story isn't taking place in N-Space, well, it's not a story, for one. For the second, we can check the "publisher summary". "A compilation of Vincent van Gogh-inspired Doctor Who fan artwork along with inspirational quotes from the series which have helped fans through tough times." It's very clearly just supposed to be a compilation within a certain framing device using the episode, not an actual story set within N-Space.Najawin ☎ 01:56, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: it is a violation of Tardis:Vandalism policy to alter other users' posts on talk pages, discussion boards, and/or forums. Continued violation of this policy WILL result in a block. Shambala108 ☎ 02:05, May 21, 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't a story, or at the very least not a valid story. However, I see no reason not to have a page about it as a "(documentary)". Devious is a good precedent for a licensed DW documentary serving to showcase bits of something that started out as a fanwork. It doesn't mean very much that the Wiki doesn't have pages on a lot of YouTube documentaries — it also lacks a lot of pages about EDA characters. The fact that Wiki editors are only human doesn't mean the pages shouldn't, in the abstract, exist.

Ergo, I think we can cover Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery the way we cover a lot of episodes of The Fan Show: as a documentary with some invalid in-universe bits that are impossible to separate fully from the documentariness. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 09:47, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Seconded. Danochy ☎ 12:25, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

So we all agree it's not a story within the DWU. The issue is that I don't think it's a story without the DWU either, which it would usually need to be to be a documentary. There's simply no narrative to the thing. It's a compilation of fan art. There's no discussion of how the the fan art is impacting people, or how people are making the fan art, these things are taken as ontological primitives and there's a montage of fan art. It can't be a documentary in the traditional sense. It's something else. What else that thing is is up for debate.

As for your example of Devious, I don't think the two are comparable. The one was on a BBC release, so while it wasn't produced with a license, it certainly was distributed as if it had one (though not intended to be in the DWU). But we know that the Lockdown as a whole does not have a license. This is something that's come up multiple times in our discussions in Thread:273268. The things that are debatable are "new Official Doctor Who stories", and what those are and whether those are licensed. This is quite clearly not one of those. So I think it just blatantly runs afoul of T:NO FANVID, especially considering the definition of fanvid given in the sidebar there. Najawin ☎ 18:13, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

But… if it's not a story at all, but rather a documentary, then it wouldn't need a license, would it? The portion of T:VS that's concerned with things having commercial licenses is for what counts as a valid story. But for documentary features, all that's required is that the source be reliable. I think a DWM editor like Emily Cook is a reliable source for REF information, and that's what matters.

(This Wiki's understanding of "documentary", unless I'm very wrong, is "video or audio product that tells about DW in the real world rather than being a purveyor of fiction". Vincnt and the Doctor's Gallery very much is that if nothing else.) --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:38, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

My point on the license issue is more to show that the two aren't comparable. Not to argue that it's not a documentary. The argument for why it's not a documentary is the prior paragraph, which I think still stands. This doesn't tell us anything about Doctor Who. It isn't intended to tell us about Doctor Who. It's intended to be a collection of fan art and inspirational quotes that have helped people through these tough times. It's intended to be part of Lockdown's overall goal, which is more community and keeping people in high spirits. But it's not telling us anything about Doctor Who or anything about Doctor Who Fan Culture except listing off a set of ontological primitives. Which just isn't sufficient for a documentary. Najawin ☎ 18:44, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's showcasing a bunch of real-world Doctor Who-related objects (namely, the pieces of fanart). If standalone releases of VFX tests, without any additional commentary, count as documentaries, then I think so should this. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 18:46, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

If it's an individual VFX test, or a compilation of a single or similar VFX tests, that actually has narrative continuity, funnily enough. If it's just a bunch of random VFX effects thrown together, I'd agree, that would be precedent, as that's just a bunch of ontological primitives thrown together with no relation, exactly the same situation as we have here. I'd prefer to call that not a documentary and invent a new term, and perhaps then argue whether this should be covered under that new term. But by T:BOUND it would be precedent, that's just my preference. Najawin ☎ 18:52, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

Well, User:OncomingStorm12th changed Heaven Sent Previsualizations’s dab term from my "(webcast)" to "(documentary)". User:SOTO later removed the dab term altogether due to their not being any conflict, but not denying that if we were to use a dab term, this would be the correct one. So there we are. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:00, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't think this qualifies. These are both shots mocked up in CGI, actual scenes, described, and they're united by the description of being previsualizations of a single episode. What I imagined you talking about was, say, someone compiling different VFX effects from S3 into a single documentary, and showing how they did Lazarus before immediately showing a mockup of the Master's regeneration. That would be the level of discontinuity that's analogous. (I apologize for the miscommunication, in my mind VFX test = you're testing the visual effects, not creating a CGI mockup of a scene that will be created later with some CGI and some live action.) Najawin ☎ 19:09, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

I mean, all the pieces of fan-submitted art featured in Vincent and the Doctor's Gallery are also united by a common theme, indeed, united by a common episode as their subject. I'm not sure I follow. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:14, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

The "actual scenes" clause there is rather relevant. But this also just isn't true. There are two pieces of artwork that are generic TARDISes. Perhaps they'd be more relevant from afar? But from what we can see they've got no connection to the framing device. (Also if I want to be really pedantic, some of their connection to the episode is just the style of art, "The Pandorica Opens" is featured, and that belongs to a latter episode. As in, Vincent Van Gogh outright shows up in a latter episode with the picture, so it's just out of place here. But I don't think I need to be that specific.) Najawin ☎ 19:24, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

An Adventure in Space and Time

A watchalong for An Adventure in Space and Time has been announced and scheduled for the 23rd of May, featuring live commentary from Mark Gatiss and Sacha Dhawan with the hashtag #London1963. Since the page is protected, I am hereby requesting for an administrator to add it to the list of watchalongs. TheDarkBomber -- Talk Page 12:38, May 22, 2020 (UTC)

What's more, another lock-down story has also come out Doctors Assemble. This also needs to be added as well. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:12, May 23, 2020 (UTC)

Name change proposal, and dates

Just wanted to drop a message here I can't see a discussion about the proposal to change this article's name to "Lockdown!". Personally, I don't see a problem with this especially if it is the convention of this wiki for "Doctor Who:..." articles. Although, I have noticed another article titled "Lockdown" without the "!", so perhaps the distinction is necessary/useful to avoid confusion. Opinions anyone?

Also, I noticed that the dates of this are listed as "21 March 2020-present", but this should probably be changed as per tweets such as https://twitter.com/Emily_Rosina/status/1269671792785973248 and https://twitter.com/Emily_Rosina/status/1269532196492148736 which indicate June 7th as the final date.