Theory talk:Timeline - Sixth Doctor: Difference between revisions

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Tag: 2017 source edit
Tag: 2017 source edit
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(I also forgot how to sign these things and I'm to lazy to bother, so... sorry for being a troublesome little shit, I guess? You can call me Noob.)
(I also forgot how to sign these things and I'm to lazy to bother, so... sorry for being a troublesome little shit, I guess? You can call me Noob.)
: Hi Noob, welcome to the timeline pages. I think the reason we don’t cite stripped for action here is because the placement is fairly clear on it’s own, compared to the seventh Doctor strips which interweave with the virgin novels so it helps to mention that they’ve specifically been placed in that order by DWM. Whereas with the Sixth Doctor comics, we know that they take place years after The Two Doctors, feature Peri's transition from her Season 22 appearance to her Season 23 appearance, and most of the stories run consecutively.
: So maybe I’d just stick a reference to stripped for action on the entry for The Shapeshifter, just to 100% clarify that it’s set between seasons. I don’t think there’s much point in doing it for the rest of the run because we know it must take place before Trial without having to be told that.
: I personally try to avoid going by stripped for action because there’s a lot of unnecessary solo gaps crammed in without explanation for how the Doctor is travelling without a companion, and a lot of stuff is blatantly wrong particularly with the Fourth Doctor order. Plus in terms of this timeline, there’s absolutely no way that the lost stories take place before these comics. But then, those stories didn’t really exist in any completed commercial form at the time this list was made so their actual continuity wouldn’t have been taken into account anyway.
: So yeah, maybe cite stripped for action on The Shapeshifter but I’d leave it at that. Also, if you want to leave your signature, just type four tildes (~).
[[User:SarahJaneFan|SarahJaneFan]] [[User talk:SarahJaneFan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:23, 21 June 2021

Thomas Brewster Trilogy placement

Recently me and Fwhiffahder have disagreed upon the placement of The Crimes of Thomas Brewster, Feast of Axos, and Industrial Evolution. These stories are a trilogy featuring Evelyn Smythe and Thomas Brewster. At the beginning of Crimes the Doctor uses his colourful coat to stun an alien with sensitive eyes. My interpretation of the sixth Doctor's timeline is that he wears only his blue coat between Real Time and The Wrong Doctors, he began wearing it to show that he was a new man, but gradually stopped wearing it when it became associated with painful memories (Thicker Than Water). Placing it before Real Time also connects it with the theme of Evelyn becoming distressed at the deaths of young people (she believes Brewster to be dead at the end of Evolution). Fwhiffahder places it at the end of their travels "for reasons". Both Me and him/her are so set in our ways that I think we need someone else to give their two cents. Please comment where you think these stories are so we can decide. :)-- TheChampionOfTime (talk page) 18:57, December 9, 2015 (UTC)

Apologies if this is the wrong way to add to talk pages. I actually only made one edit to that page. I saw your edit and figured that since your reasoning (rainbow=pre-Real Time) was wrong, the edit must be wrong. I don't have any opinion on your assessment of his character, but the coloring isn't so cut-and-dry. He first wears blue in Real Time, and says he'll "wear [the colourful coat] again for you" in The Wrong Doctors, but he also wears blue in Jago & Litefoot and with Charley, and he's deliberately switched back to the colourful one temporarily in The Crimes of Thomas Brewster. So blue is already standard in The Crimes of Thomas Brewster, and he doesn't exclusively wear rainbow after The Wrong Doctors.Fwhiffahder ☎ 22:04, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry if this is obvious to you, but why does it have to be at the end of their travels? Based on the fact that he has hundreds of rainbow coats in his wardrobe and there is no mention of his blue outfit it makes most logical sense for this to be before he has had a blue coat. (I didn't say he never wore the blue coat after Evelyn, just that he gradually stopped wearing it, but that doesn't matter) -- TheChampionOfTime (talk page) 22:19, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
I just checked the story and Evelyn's comment could have meant that there's a reason he wears it in general, instead of in that story in particular. So your position works.Fwhiffahder ☎ 22:31, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
Although he is wearing a blue coat on the cover...
...But I'm pretty sure this generally accepted as a mistake (like Spaceport Feare). Sorry for the kerfuffle. -- TheChampionOfTime (talk page) 22:36, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, the cover isn't really indicative. The cover for The Revolution uses the White Darkness outfit when the story specifically mentions the "amusing pullover."Fwhiffahder ☎ 22:47, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
So are you okay with placing this story before Pirates or should it stay where it is now? (I'm really sorry that I misunderstood "wearing it for reasons", to me it seemed like you were being lazy, when in actuality you were quoting the story)-- TheChampionOfTime (talk page) 23:06, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
Pre-Doctor Who and the Pirates should be fine. Fwhiffahder ☎ 23:08, December 9, 2015 (UTC)

About the One Doctor Placement

The One Doctor Placement

I have edited this page to have The One Doctor after Terror of the Vervoids since, in the latter, the Doctor appears to compare Mel's memory to that of an elephant for the first time:

DOCTOR: Your amazing ability for almost total recall. MEL: Compliments. You are undergoing a change. DOCTOR: I could have been comparing you to an elephant. Well, figuratively speaking. They never forget. MEL: Doctor, I realise you're trying to take my mind off poor Edwardes.

Then, in The One Doctor, Mel says this:

MEL: The Doctor always says I have a memory like an elephant, it's a running joke we share.

Since there was no apparent reason for the previous ordering, I think it is appropriate to amend the order as I have done. Danochy ☎ 03:59, August 9, 2018 (UTC)

Placement of Davros and other Early Solo Stories

I've looked around, and I can find no evidence that conclusively suggests that Davros takes place between The Two Doctors and Timelash as is suggested in this article. The reason why this is relevant right now is because the story Iron Bright has brought about the suggestion that the Doctor traveled alone at some point prior to The Two Doctors, due to the fact that he receives Brunel's card at this time. I think it would also be safe to assume that Hour of the Cybermen also takes place during this time. With this in mind, I'm going to be moving Davros around to fit in with this new information. –Nahald ☎ 08:51, September 15, 2018 (UTC)

True, he only thong that places Davris between those two stories is the Big Finish website, but gheu have made errors in the past about these things.BananaClownMan ☎ 12:51, September 15, 2018 (UTC)

Can't find anything on the story's page about this placement. You got a link? -Nahald ☎ 22:40, September 15, 2018 (UTC)

In Iron Bright, the Doctor says that he met Marc Brunel on a previous occasion while attending one of his presentations, he also says that during that time he picked up his business card.

Brunel then claims that he does not recognise the Doctor and the Doctor says that “his face may have looked a little different”, implying that it was a previous incarnation.

So actually, the Doctor gets the business card from The Two Doctors in a previous incarnation, and then meets Marc Brunel for the second time in this story, whereas I think this is the first time he meets Isambard.

Therefore I have moved Davros back to its intended placement after The Two Doctors and have moved Iron Bright and Hour Of The Cybermen to the Doctor’s Solo Travels and shortly after Lure Of The Nomad. SarahJaneFan ☎ 12:50, September 18, 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, having just listened to it myself I was going to move it back to "Unplaced," but I'll trust your judgment. –Nahald ☎ 17:21, September 24, 2018 (UTC)


Placement of the Post-Trial Frobisher Stories

I just wanted to open up a discussion and see how people feel about moving these Frobisher stories to an earlier gap as currently we have them occurring after Evelyn’s departure but I feel as though tonally they fit much better before Evelyn’s introduction.

I think it makes a degree of sense to believe that Frobisher would be the first person he’d contact after Trial with Peri now out of the picture. On top of that, a lot of these stories were written with a more abrasive Sixth Doctor in mind.

I’d suggest changing it to something like this:

  • Trial Of a Time Lord
  • The Wrong Doctors

The Doctor asks Frobisher to join him again, but he declines

  • Time Of Your Life
  • Killing Ground
  • The Wormery
  • Excelis Rising
  • The Spindle Of Necessity
  • The Maltese Penguin
  • Mission Impractical
  • The Holy Terror

(And whatever other Six/Frobisher Stories there are)

SarahJaneFan ☎ 18:27, September 18, 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the Doctor's Blue Coat and the Placement of Real Time

I've recently started listening to the Sixth Doctor and Evelyn Smythe audio stories for the first time and just listened to The Sandman. Having listened to it, I've come to the conclusion that the placement of Real Time within the timeline is incorrect because the Doctor is clearly still wearing his technicolor coat in this story. This is obvious for the following reasons:

  • Although the picture on the cover is a bit hard to make out, the coat the Doctor is wearing appears to be his technicolor coat. You can clearly see that his left lapel is yellow and while the color of the rest of his coat is difficult to make out due to the lighting, it is very clearly not blue.
  • Evelyn makes several snide remarks about the Doctor's appearance that seem to indicate that he is still wearing his technicolor coat. The first is when the Doctor refers to himself as "the Devil" and Evelyn makes a remark that's something along the lines of, "I thought the Devil would be better dressed." The second is when the character Shol is averting his eyes from the Doctor out of fear and Evelyn remarks that he can be "hard to look at." Theses statements are not consistent with the audio version of Real Time which contains an additional scene in the TARDIS where Evelyn tells the Doctor that she likes his new blue outfit.
  • At one point during the story the Doctor and Evelyn are being stalked by a Galyari security drone that is able to camouflage itself. When the Doctor successfully catches the drone, it's cloaking mechanism attempts to blend in with the Doctor's coat but is having trouble doing so. Evelyn again makes a snide remark saying that it's probably having a "nervous breakdown" trying to match the Doctor's coat.

With all this in mind, I don't think that there is any room for doubt that the Doctor is, in fact, wearing his technicolor coat in this story. I don't know why Real Time was put where it was in the timeline, but I assume it was because the webcast aired August through September 2002 while The Sandman came out in October of the same year. Typically going by release dates for main ranges with audio-only companions is a safe bet for what order they go in, but one thing to keep in mind about Real Time is that it's not a main range audio story but a webcast that was later a special release Big Finish audio drama outside of the main range. With this in mind, I'm going to go ahead and move Real Time to "Awaiting Placement" until the issue of its placement is resolved and the first main range story in which the Doctor wears his blue coat is identified, as it would be before this story that Real Time would be placed. Also, while I'm at it, I'm going to place a flashback from The Sandman under there as well because I notice that the flashback that is shown within this story is nowhere to be found within this timeline. –Nahald ☎ 03:42, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

The Doctor switches between the two coats throughout the Evelyn run. The later on stuff particularly has him jumping between the two coats and he continues to do so up until part-way through the Flip era. At least Pier Pressure has him explicitly in the technicolour coat and the Brewster trilogy also has him in the technicolour with no implication that it’s supposed to take place earlier on. In fact I think Feast of Axos is explicitly late in Evelyn's travels.

So I think release order works fine. Otherwise you’re going to end up moving around a lot of stories that are supposed to come later to satisfy the idea that he exclusively wears the blue coat after Real Time. SarahJaneFan ☎ 12:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved it between Doctor Who and the Pirates and Project: Lazarus, as he wears his blue coat in Lazarus and Arrangements for War, so this seemed like a good a place as any to put it. While I do agree on release order for the most part, I think exceptions should be made for Specials like Real Time. Keep in mind that specials aren't even really part of any sort of production order and they probably have little idea of when exactly they are going to release them in relation to the main range. This goes double for this particular story because it was a production for BBCi, so when it was released was probably completely up to them and they likely cared little for when it was released in relation to the main range. So I think putting it before Project: Lazarus is as good a place as any. It would also further explain Evelyn's breakdown at the end of Episode 2 of Project: Lazarus. First she watched Jem die, then she watched the entire research team on Chronos either die or be converted, and then Cassie died. I could see that being her breaking point.

Also, I really should have finished listening to The Sandman before making my original post because it's pretty much explicitly stated later in the story that he is, in fact, wearing his technicolor coat. So all that speculation was entirely pointless. –Nahald ☎ 07:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

So I'm a bit further into the Sixth Doctor and Evelyn stories, currently two thirds of the way through the Robert Ross trilogy, and I'm starting to think that we should seriously rethink the order of these stories and not stick strictly to release date. Arrangements for War seems like it was a major catalyst for the Sixth Doctor's change in temperament in the Big Finish stories, yet in the two stories that come after it, according to this timeline, he goes right on back to being cynical and flippant about people dying around him. This doesn't seem consistent at all. Add to that the fact that he in his technicolor coat for these stories (at least for Pier Pressure, not so sure about Medicinal Purposes), then perhaps his choice of coat is a major clue to the placement of these stories. I won't say anything definitive just yet, I'll finish off the rest of the Evelyn stories before I make any speculation as to the overall order for all the Evelyn stories, with the exception of Thicker Than Water, of course. –Nahald ☎ 03:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so I'm have now gotten through all of the Evelyn Smythe stories, and my conclusion is that there are some issues with the way the stories are currently placed. I should note that I have not read any of the Short Trips Evelyn Smythe stories, so I will just be leaving them where they currently are for the moment. I shall provide the order that I think the stories should go in down below and provide notes that I feel are relevant:

The Sixth Doctor seems to be very flippant about the loss of human life at this point, even going far as to excusing the murder of innocents in the name of medical progress. This clearly sets this story before his watershed moment in Arrangements for War.
This story seems to the first in a series of events that leads Evelyn to her breakdown at the end of Project Lazarus.
The first time the Doctor wears his blue coat.
This is the first time the Doctor mentions his sonic screwdriver to Evelyn. He is wearing his blue coat, according to the DWM illustration for this story.
Evelyn mentions the Doctor telling her about once having a sonic screwderiver, setting this after The Nowhere Place. The Doctor still seems to be somewhat callous about the loss of human life, likely setting this before Arrangements for War.
Shortly after discovering he's been poisoned, the Doctor concludes the he must have been poisoned sometime within the last ten years of his personal timeline. Since the earliest incarnation of himself that he visits is the Fifth Doctor during his travels with Peri and Erimem, this means around ten years have passed between then and now. The Doctor is also wearing his blue coat in this story, as indicated by the DWM illustration for this story.
The Doctor spends 100 years traveling in the TARDIS, setting this after The 100 Days of the Doctor.
The Doctor is wearing his blue coat according to the DWM illustration for this story.
The Doctor has changed back into his technicolor coat at some point between Assassin in the Limelight and this story. This story takes place after Arrangements for War due to Evelyn's comment about jumping from trains.
The Doctor loses one of his technicolor coats and is forced to change into jeans and a jumper. Judging from the cover of the story, he likely ditches these clothes for his blue coat sometime after going back to the TARDIS with Menzies. This seems to be the last time that he wears any technicolor coats for awhile.

So this is what I think is the proper order for the Evelyn stories. Unless there are any objections, I'll go ahead and edit the article to reflect these changes, leaving in the original notes, of course, but adding a few of my own notes as well. –Nahald ☎ 09:28, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Cracking detective work, mate. I wholeheartedly support this order of events.BananaClownMan ☎ 13:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I also noticed that the Doctor is wearing his technicolor coat at the beginning of The Maltese Penguin, yet he's back in blue in The Wrong Doctors. I find it far more likely that The Wrong Doctors comes before the beginning of The Maltese Penguin and he changes back into his technicolor coat, which he continues to wear until around the time he meets Charley. I'll take some time to make all thse changes a bit later. –Nahald ☎ 22:55, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I believe Real Time absolutely should be left in release order. BF clearly have him switching between both coats for pretty much the entire time he has the blue coat. So it’s fine before The Sandman because there’s loads of other instances of him wearing the coats interchangeably with Evelyn. And really it shouldn’t go after DW and the Pirates, because it interrupts the flow of that story, to Project: Lazarus and then Arrangements for War which work best kept together. The Doctor continues wearing the blue coat for a long time after The Wrong Doctors, with him wearing both coats in the Charley era (and a brand new blue and red coat). He then wears his technicolour coat again with Jamie before returning to the blue for his early travels with Flip. After that he’s not seen wearing it again. So I just don’t see any good reason at all to move Real Time out of release order. You mention how specials aren’t factored into production order and are their own thing, but then drop Real Time down in the middle of a story arc it shouldn’t really be in the middle of. So I strongly believe it should be moved back again.
As for the other changes to the Six/Evelyn timeline. I agree (begrudgingly) about swapping Pier Pressure and The Nowhere Place around as that does make sense, although I’ll be hoping another sonic screwdriver reference pops up earlier in the timeline allowing us to put it back in release order. I also agree about 100, and think it might best be placed in reverse order so that 100 Days of the Doctor goes first and 100BC is last. Maybe Evelyn’s 100 years in stasis could even be the explanation for her out of character appearance in the latter story.
However I’m not convinced by the earlier placements of Medicinal Purposes and Pier Pressure. I don’t feel as though Arrangements for War quite has the same connotations for the Doctor's characterisation that you’ve taken away. At least not in such an impactful way. It’s less about the Doctor changing his ways and more about him and Evelyn learning to be more honest and open to one another. Right at the end the Doctor even says he doesn’t think he can change and Evelyn says that she doesn’t expect him to. Evelyn herself acknowledged that her reaction was more to do with her own growing sense of mortality than truly being alienated by the Doctor's actions. She absolves him of blame here, while he himself can no longer hold back his anguish over the deaths that surround him.
Then in Medicinal Purposes, the Doctor and Evelyn are far more open with each other. They have many discussions about the Doctor’s attitude towards the Burke and Hare murders, and although they come to a disagreement about it, they don’t fall out over it. Evelyn even expresses later in the story how she doesn’t understand the Doctor’s behaviour sometimes, as he’ll act cold one moment and then shocked and upset about something he knew was going to happen the next. This all feels like it thematically follows Arrangements for War. After acting cold towards the deaths of Cassie and Jem, the Doctor suddenly broke down over the deaths in Arrangements for War, deaths that even Evelyn knew were unavoidable. Furthermore this provides an example of how the Doctor and Evelyn have to find a way of living together despite their differences as Evelyn told Rossiter they would in Arrangements for War. Finally at the end, the Doctor and Evelyn are forced to send Daft Jamie to his fate, but together they take a moment to reflect and the Doctor doesn’t try to shut down Evelyn’s emotions which is a far cry from his actions in Project:Lazarus. Is it somewhat jarring to listen to Medicinal Purposes immediately after Arrangements for War? I would say so. But I don’t think it’s impossible for MP to go later, and considering it’s intended to be later I wouldn’t want to move it.
In Pier Pressure, yes the Doctor is somewhat irritable but this is explained as him being melancholy after a few misadventures, something Evelyn is used to and shakes him out of. They have a frank discussion and it feels like a more open depiction of their relationship following the events of Arrangements for War, where the Doctor and Evelyn have a heart to heart and come to understand each other better. Also, Evelyn makes a jokey reference to the events of Doctor Who and the Pirates. So it would have to go right between Doctor Who and the Pirates and Project: Lazarus. In my opinion it doesn’t really make sense to have a story with an upbeat Evelyn joking about the events of that story when really she’s supposed to be upset about it and have building tension with the Doctor. Medicinal Purposes is also said to be a long time ago, although I get the impression that Arrangements for War is still fairly early in their travels.
Overall, I don’t believe that Arrangements for War does depict such a huge change in character for the Sixth Doctor. Thicker Than Water proves that his irritability lasts throughout his entire life and really the cold reaction to deaths is an issue that almost every Doctor deals with and it’s not something exclusive to Six. Arrangements for War is imo more about the evolution of the Doctor and Evelyn’s relationship and how they come to understand each other better and also learn to deal with the problems together. SarahJaneFan ☎ 00:43, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Placement of the First Jago & Litefoot Stories

I just got finished listening to Series 3 and 4 of Jago & Litefoot, and I think that those stories are placed way too late in the Sixth Doctor's timeline. The Doctor in these stories is shown as being irritable and somewhat flippant about the loss of human life like he was before he met Evelyn. I'm not sure if the placement of this story was based on the fact that the Doctor is shown wearing a blue suit on the cover of The Hourglass Killers, but not only is that very clearly not the same blue suit, he was incognito during his time in Victorian London in order to hide from Kempston and Hardwick. I'm going to move these stories to right before he met Evelyn. –Nahald ☎ 02:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Comic Strips order: the legitimacy of "Stripped For Action?"

I'm very much a casual contributor to the wiki and as such am very unfamiliar with the rules and agreed-upon policies in regards to what is considered a valid source for chronological order. I was therefor wondering whether or not Stripped for action? could be cited as reason for the chronological order of the Sixth Doctor comic strips in the same way that Interweaving with the New Adventures often is. I realise that the order proposed by Stripped contradicts some parts of the current timeline but as far as I'm aware, so does Interweaving and its still cited for several story placement.

This here is the order as per Stipped for Action?, btw:

Peri takes a break from travelling in the TARDIS.
Peri leaves. Mel joins the Doctor, somehow.

So, as far as I know, the release order (at least, for the strips). I know that the strips are basically still in that order on the page but I'm just wondering if it'd be ok to cite Stripped as a reason for those placements instead of the (sometimes) unreliable release order alone.

(I also forgot how to sign these things and I'm to lazy to bother, so... sorry for being a troublesome little shit, I guess? You can call me Noob.)

Hi Noob, welcome to the timeline pages. I think the reason we don’t cite stripped for action here is because the placement is fairly clear on it’s own, compared to the seventh Doctor strips which interweave with the virgin novels so it helps to mention that they’ve specifically been placed in that order by DWM. Whereas with the Sixth Doctor comics, we know that they take place years after The Two Doctors, feature Peri's transition from her Season 22 appearance to her Season 23 appearance, and most of the stories run consecutively.
So maybe I’d just stick a reference to stripped for action on the entry for The Shapeshifter, just to 100% clarify that it’s set between seasons. I don’t think there’s much point in doing it for the rest of the run because we know it must take place before Trial without having to be told that.
I personally try to avoid going by stripped for action because there’s a lot of unnecessary solo gaps crammed in without explanation for how the Doctor is travelling without a companion, and a lot of stuff is blatantly wrong particularly with the Fourth Doctor order. Plus in terms of this timeline, there’s absolutely no way that the lost stories take place before these comics. But then, those stories didn’t really exist in any completed commercial form at the time this list was made so their actual continuity wouldn’t have been taken into account anyway.
So yeah, maybe cite stripped for action on The Shapeshifter but I’d leave it at that. Also, if you want to leave your signature, just type four tildes (~).

SarahJaneFan ☎ 10:23, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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