Talk:Baker's End (audio series)

"Overstatement"

Is this not all a little overstated? Surely "Baker's End" merely parodies the setup of the Hornets Nest series, the characters are not the same people. The fourth Doctor is not Tom Baker, whom BE establishes as an actor (not in 'Doctor Who') and the fourth Doctor definitely didn't regenerate into Colin Baker. Mrs Frimbly's first name is not the same as Mrs Wibbsey's, except in one short story in which Magrs rewrote a HN story into a BE story.86.162.8.70^{talk to me} 18:49, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

With no personal offence meant — man, you've got to love an argument on the level of "these characters are different, except for, er, that time the author explicitly equated them".

More broadly, I think you need to familiarise yourself better with how Paul Magrs rolls. He is a writer ideologically aligned with contradictions, which he does not see as contrary to continuity at all, within a work of fiction. Important recurring characters in Magrs's DWU stories routinely change names or backstories in-between installments for no clear in-universe reason, despite clearly being intended to remain the same from one story to another. The way he spells out his philosophy for writing Doctor Who stories is that…

…I wanted my stories to feel like half-remembering an amazing dream you once had after seeing something bizarre on TV.Paul Magrs

Additionally, Magrs blurs lines between reality and fiction, Dr Who and Doctor Who, quite often and completely on purpose. Iris Wildthyme herself often acts as metafiction made flesh and does things like interact with her narrator. When she met the Eighth Doctor in The Scarlet Empress, the central tension of their relationship was that the Doctor is somehow aware, in-universe, that Iris is a parody of him, and keeps saying, in essence, "come on your parody versions of my adventures can't be as real as my own, straightforward adventures in those same places! they conflict!". And this is clearly treated as the Doctor not Getting It™.

And who is to say that the Doctor didn't regenerate into Colin Baker? The Eighth Doctor regenerated into a bunch of different people at once. Also, remember that Magrs has stated that in his mind, the Tom Baker Doctor of Hornets' Nest is not really the Fourth Doctor before died in Logopolis, but rather, "what happened to the Fourth Doctor after he died at the Pharos Project and Peter took over". (He has even given an escape route for those who want a less meta headcanon, which is that the Nest Cottage Doctor is a young Curator.) Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Validity

Why is this series a valid source when Bafflegab clearly didn't have the rights to anything from Nest Cottage, including the name of the cottage itself? The page for Mrs Frimbly's Festive Diary says that it "indicates an in-universe equivalence" between the characters and locations of Nest Cottage and Baker's End - I'm not entirely sure what that actually means, but, even if it were licensed I don't see how this would retroactively make Baker's End a valid source. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 22:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ignore me. I've misphrased what I meant to say and should put it on the Mrs Frimbly's Festive Diary talk page. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 22:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Mrs Frimbly's Festive Diary is seen as a valid source because it contains characters who made their debut in DWU stories (such as Tish Madoc and Deirdre Whatsit). The argument that this story retroactively makes Baker's End a valid source is that it confirms that Mrs Frimbly is Mrs Wibbsey and the names are interchangeable therefore a character who debuted in a DWU story appeared in every Baker's End story. RadMatter ☎ 23:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

…No, that's not really the argument, actually. Unless the link was textually present upon release, the Wibbsey=Frimbly equivalence doesn't provide a licensed link to the DWU for Baker's End, any more than we would started covering all of Star Trek, had Assimilation² revealed the Enterprise to have been a disguised TARDIS this entire time. What the equivalences prove is that Baker's End passes Rule 4 — that it is intended to be continuous with Nest Cottage, contra the conclusions of the original debate on Baker's End. Baker's End otherwise contains its fair share of characters who debuted in the DWU, most notably Vince Cosmos. That is the (thus far, in the absence of a Forum, entirely theoretical) argument for reconsidering Baker's End coverage that would actually hold some water. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

While I admire your determination to correct me at every given opportunity, you are wrong here Scrooge.

The authorial intent for the character of Mrs Frimbly has always been extremely clear. She was always intended to be Fenella Wibbsey, right from the very first installment. Just because the character is operating under another name does not mean that these were intended to be separate individuals as Paul Magrs does this a lot with characters he owns. Her involvement is far more meaningful an argument than Vince Cosmos's appearance, although both arguments hold water. RadMatter ☎ 23:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ack, I promise I'm not trying to antagonise you on purpose in a systematic way, haha!

But I maintain that the authorial intent doesn't cut it unless there are author-owned, license-worthy features to Frimbly in the text that already pointed to her identity as Wibbsey — see the stuff about the "Old man (Beige Planet Mars)" in the sandbox I linked you to. Vince Cosmos, who is unquestionably a DWU-debuting concept, combined with a more general intent of continuity with Nest Cottage and therefore with the DWU — that's a case. Otherwise you just have a The Mistress (The Choice) sort of situation. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 00:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

The character of Mrs Frimbly was always intended to be Mrs Wibbsey. Everything about the character is exactly the same other than the name, even her voice actress. This is no different to Barbra being spelled Barbara in certain releases - they are still exactly the same character. RadMatter ☎ 00:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)