Forum:BBV and canon policy

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If this thread's title doesn't specify it's spoilery, don't bring any up.

There's been some chatter on Talk:The Doctor (Party Animals) and between Revanvolatrelundar and Tangerineduel that has seemed to produced the basic sentiment: "If it's BBV, it's canon to us." Indeed, it would seem that the ill-nuanced canon policy is behind such a notion.

But I'm not sure such a blanket policy makes sense.

BBV weren't like Big Finish or IDW. They never, ever had a full license to produce Doctor Who fiction. In fact, they had no license whatever from the BBC. So characters that looked like wholly-BBC-owned characters, like the Doctor, couldn't actually be those characters. The Nick Briggs BBV character, Fred, is therefore Fred, not, as was previously intimated by redirect, a version of the Doctor who appeared briefly in official DWM comics. I think we need to remember and clearly state in our canon policy that BBV productions are at best semi-canonical, because they never involve the rights of the BBC. However, at worst they're not at all canonical, because quite a bit of BBV's output doesn't involve the rights of even Doctor Who writers.

Actually, this "Fred" character shouldn't be mentioned by us whatsoever, because all his adventures involve the Cyberona, who are themselves rip-offs of the Cybermen. There's zero legal tie whatever to the DWU, so why are we covering them?

I get why we're including some of BBV, like that which uses Autons, Zygons, Krynods, the Rani and Sontarans. But for the life of me, I can't understand why we allow things like The Time Travellers, as the explicit point of these is that they have been designed so as to come as close as possible to portraying the Doctor, but to do so in such a way that explicitly avoids copyright infringement. It's zirconium — not a real diamond. And since we don't cover/allow in-line references to any other unlicensed stories, we shouldn't be covering these, either.

Seems to me that the such a stance would compel a few actions:

1. The rewriting of tardis:canon policy. The rule should be: BBV productions which involve the rights of people who contributed to televised Doctor Who are valid resources on this wiki. However, works which are 100% copyrightable by BBV Productions should not be referenced here. Thus, if the production uses Auton, Zygons, Krynoids or any other race or character seen on Doctor Who, it's allowable. If, however, the production uses only characters that are close approximations of those seen on Doctor Who — as in The Time Travellers, The Wanderer, The Stranger, Adventures in a Pocket Universe and the like — they're not allowable.
2. The creation of a template, like {{nc}}, to be clearly displayed the top of allowed BBV articles. It should read something like, "'This topic related to BBV Productions is only semi-canonical, as rights to create it were granted by the original Doctor Who writer, but not by the BBC.
3. The transfer of all the non-compliant BBV material to the Doctor Who Extended wikia.
4. The eradication of most of the links to the non-compliant material from our in-universe articles, and the redirection of real world links to the DWE articles. (Really not as daunting as it sounds; you can create a redirect directly to the DWE article. And there wouldn't be that much "eradication", as most in-universe articles have shied away from BBV, anyway.)

Thoughts?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

I agree, ive just been going through the BBV stuff I just got (hence the interest in the subject atm) and things like the PROBE and even the Stranger has nothing to do with the DWU (The Stranger branches away and i didn't even see too much of a resemblence to the Doctor or Peri anyway).

I'll get a list together of all productions that are definately in the DWU, those i havent tried yet or are unsure of and lastly the unrelated productions.

watch this space

--Revanvolatrelundar 20:38, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Within DWU

The Auton Trilogy

• Auton
• Auton 2: Sentinel
• Auton 3: Awakening

Zygon

• Zygon: When Being You Just Isn't Enough and by extension its prequel: Cyberon (Cyberon definitely not DWU.
  czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  )
  Hmm i suppose but events of Cyberon are referenced in Zygon. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

The Time Travellers

(the Doctor and ace with new names) ABSOLUTELY NOT DWU
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Agreed, DWE here we come. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

• Republica
• Island of Lost Souls
• Prosperity Island
• The Left Hand of Darkness
• The Other Side
• Guests for the Night
• Ghosts
• Only Human
• Blood Sports
• Punchline

Adventures in a Pocket Universe

(both with K9 in as far as i know) Perhaps DWU, but K9 isn't K9 Mark II and The Mistress isn't Romana II.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Agreed characters may not be who they're intended to be but still DWU related with K9 in it. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

• The Choice
• The Search

Zygons

• Zygons: Homeland
• Zygons: Absolution
• The Barnacled Baby

Krynoids

• Krynoids: The Root of All Evil
• Krynoids: The Green Man

Sontarans

• Sontarans: Silent Warrior
• Sontarans: Old Soldiers
• Sontarans: Conduct Unbecoming

The I

(from Seeing I for convenience)

• I Scream

The Rani

• The Rani Reaps the Whirlwind

Wirrn

• Wirrn: Race Memory

The Faction Paradox Protocols

I don't personally see FP as part of the DWU; it's written so as to avoid copyright issues with the BBC, but maybe there's a point of definite intersection I'm missing.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

See below, these stories are set in an alternate timeline that ignores one story in the DWU. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Besides, Toy Story is an example of a crossover between series and is now included in FP universe. --Revan\Talk 21:38, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

• The Eleven Day Empire
• The Shadow Play
• Sabbath Dei
• In the Year of the Cat
• Movers
• A Labyrinth of Histories

Rutans

• In 2 Minds

Mike Yates

• The Killing Stone (actually has the Fourth Doctor in it, no "dentist" type thing)

Don't know about this. The fact that it has fourth Doctor in it is dubious. Can't imagine he's there legally. Can't imagine Mike Yates is, either. Both characters wholly owned by the BBC and BBC definitely didn't license this puppy so it's fan fiction, I'm afraid.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Legally or not, the Doctor and the Master etc. are all called by their proper names and DWU stories such as the Planet of Spiders are directly referenced. This story should definately stay. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Guy de Carnac (Sanctuary)

• The Quality of Mercy

P.R.O.B.E.

(Liz Shaw)

• The Zero Imperative
• The Devil of Winterborne
• Unnatural Selection
• Ghosts of Winterborne

Is Liz Shaw legally present here? I'm pretty sure she's a BBC-owned character, so how is she present? If rights weren't sold, it's just fan fiction.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

NOT DWU

Cyberons

• Cybergeddon

The Stranger

• Summoned by Shadows
• More Than a Messiah
• In Memory Alone
• The Terror Game
• Breach of the Peace
• Eye of the Beholder

Not DWU, characters were later revealed to be some universal teleport terrorist people (i was bored so i didn't take it all in). --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

The Wanderer

• Cyber-Hunt
• Vital Signs

See above, not DWU. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

The Stranger

• The Last Mission
• Eye of the Storm

See above, not DWU. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

• The Airzone Solution
• Do You Have a Licence to Save this Planet? (spoof, fan made but should it be kept?)

Other

• Infidel's Comet
• The Pattern

Not DWU. --Revan\Talk 21:36, January 30, 2011 (UTC) I have not included Reeltime productions in here (although as far as i know they all use DWU characters).

Discussion

Please discuss Revanvolatrelundar 20:44, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

If they have no obvious tie to Doctor Who, then I think they should go.--Skittles the hog--Talk 22:38, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Guy de Carnac is from Sanctuary. He gets a fake cameo in Happy Endings. Like Miranda (comic), its a spinoff from the character's creator. --Nyktimos 01:35, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
Oh right! I should also add that a clean way to not simply junk stuff like The Wanderer is to migrate it to Doctor Who Expanded which is our version of memory(gamma?) but lawless and full of self-promoting lowlifes. --Nyktimos 01:59, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Refined the list somewhat, any flaws? --Revan\Talk 15:33, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with CzechOut on the approximations front, 'The Time Travellers, The Wanderer, The Stranger'.

I disagree in relation to PROBE and Adventures in a Pocket Universe. PROBE includes Liz Shaw and Adventures in a Pocket Universe includes K9.

I think we should keep 'Do you have a licence…', it is a spoof, it is made by BBV, it does include the Autons and Sontarans, it's an interesting book end to the big DW parodies etc.

I disagree partially on the template, I think if we start getting into statements like "semi-canonical" we'll start to get into trouble with things. If it's really needed I'd prefer it to read "This topic is related to BBV Productions. Rights to create it were granted by the original Doctor Who writer, but not the BBC." With maybe a link off to the a page covering all this, stuff about the Wilderness Years and how all this came about. But I'm not sure if it's needed or would help or confuse more.

I'd be cautious about stating whether or not something has an "obvious tie" to DW, the reason a lot of people bought these things DW related or not is precisely because of their ties to Doctor Who. It's the reason I've got The Airzone Solution VHS on my shelf (which is actually a very good story). --Tangerineduel / talk 15:43, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

I'd already put the pocket universe and PROBE stuff in the DWU section, it was an initial mistake that i thought they didnt haev Who characters in them. Any clue about the Infidel's comet or The Pattern? --Revan\Talk 15:45, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Adventures in a Pocket Universe is tricky, though. Okay, it's a character called "K9", but is it our K9? Was there actual permission obtained from Baker and Martin? And it's definitely not Romana, even if played by Lalla Ward. So I'm not sure how you'd easily refer to this work in, say, pages about K9. It's total speculation that this is K9 Mark II who went off with Romana II at the end of Warriors' Gate — even if that's what the writer is implying. Frankly, I think it deserves to be considered K9 (BBV), and definitely shouldn't be mixed with the DWU K9 Mk II.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Infidel's Comet is definitely original SF. Nothing to do with DW. Closest connection is that its writers, Colin Hill and Simon Gerard, also wrote Sontarans: Old Soldiers. But the story definitely has nothing to do with Sontarans or anything DW-related. If any of the actors are related to the DW television programme, they must have had only very minor roles. The Pattern is similarly original, and definitely shouldn't be covered by us. In fact, neither should even be covered by DWE. Articles like this should be redirected to a page which says something like, "This title has nothing to do with the DWU, but was produced by BBV, a company associated with making semi-canonical DWU stories."
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Looking in a more detailed way at Revan's list, I'd note a few problems.

• The Time Travellers (series) isn't a part of the DWU and shouldn't be covered here. Again, approximations of characters wholly owned by the BBC aren't the characters themselves, and so therefore aren't deserving of coverage.
• Cyberon (video) is well off the list. There's nothing in the narrative of Cyberon which is in any way definitively set within the DWU. Cyberons do not exist within the DWU. Trying to retrofit it because the two stories share Dr. Lauren Anderson isn't on. The 100% BBV copyrightable characters aren't of interest to this wiki.

• As for other objections, please refer up to Revan's original chart. Kinda laborious typing it all here, when I can just annotate the chart.
• 
  czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

Faction Paradox definately IS within DWU, it just takes place in the timeline where The Ancestor Cell didn't happen, and the Second War in Heaven continued as normal. There are far too many overlaps with characters from DW and Bernice Summerfield for it to be considered non-canon. --Revan\Talk 18:47, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

I always thought FP happened because Larry Miles pitched one of his famous hissy-fits cause he didn't like how The Ancestor Cell had been written, so he took his toys off to another universe to play. Aren't all the references to the DWU incredibly oblique and, in any case, one-way? Actual, branded DW stuff doesn't directly and unambiguously refer to FP elements, does it? I could have sworn it was all "coded language" to avoid copyright probs with the BBC —just like most of BBV's output. It's not actually the Time Lords or Gallifrey, right?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 

If its not the Time Lords or Gallifrey then it's hard to see how Lolita, one of the Master's (called as such in Toy Story) previous TARDISes. Faction Paradox preys heavily on Doctor Who's past, with Morbius, Chris Cwej, Compassion and many other characters appearing. The "Evil Renegade" who Cwej used to travel with is also the Doctor. BBC books in the "War arc" like Unnatural History and the Taking of Planet 5 reference events that occured within the Faction Paradox books (Time Lords deserting Gallifrey, Mictlan being destroyed etc.). --Revan\Talk 13:31, January 31, 2011 (UTC)