Talk:Eighth Doctor/Archive 1

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Time War info

Now that we have some info regarding the 8th Doctor and the Time War, should a section to that effect be placed at the end of the biography article? I'm thinking mostly Mueseum Peace and The Forgotten. Taccer 07 10:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The Relic

(diff) (hist) . . Eighth Doctor‎; 17:07 . . ***Stardizzy*** (Talk | contribs) (→The Doctor's involvement in the Future War with The Enemy - cleaning up prose, also removing Doctor's "future corpse"; didn't the Relic come from the dead version of the Third Doctor?)

No... The Relic featured in Alien Bodies is buried by the third Doctor )or the fourth, can't remember). But it isn't the third Doctor, the third Doctor (in which ever timeline) either dies on Dust or dies or dies on Earth per Planet of the Spiders. The Relic is the body of the Doctor, the Doctor who lives through the future war with the Enemy... Ie The Relic is the body of the Doctor...from the same future that Homunculette is from, except slightly eariler than Homunculette obviously. By Homunculette coming back in time to bid on the Relic, and thus making the 8th Doctor aware of this it changes the future, but because of the temporal nature of the Time Lord's future it doesn't change it, 'change it'.

It is stated that the body of the Relic isn't the Doctor 'now' but his body in the future after he encounters even more things that change his biodata, the Faction Paradox and the Time Lords both want The Relic, the Faction Paradox because that's how their technology works the Time Lords because they've lost access to things through their war, time lines being written and re-written means they can't access some things, they think that the Relic with all its changes and information in the bio-data will help them in this quest. --Tangerineduel 13:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Is an "in-universe" approach really the best one to take with the Eighth Doctor?

Shouldn't there at least be a link to the Big Finish audios or the comics, both of which have detailed plotlines for the Eighth Doctor? I could understand just covering the TV movie and linking out to the books/audios/comics, but it seems really odd to imply that one of the non-telly media is the 'real' Eighth Doctor chronology and ignore the other two entirely.--Doyle 15:05, 9 August 2007

Anything that is to be written must be written from an 'in-universe' perspective, within the Eighth Doctor article. It is remiss that there isn't a passing reference to the other parts that you've mentioned. (Which I'll probably begin work on soon at some point). --Tangerineduel 14:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

To me, this article is organized in a way that will render it impossible to complete with accuracy. The Eighth Doctor simply cannot be written about from a completely in-universe point of view. There have been so many frankly discordant narrative runs — most of whom don't make reference to the other parts — that you really can't find a single, accurate chronology of events. This needs to be explained to the reader — in an out of universe voice — for the article to be genuinely useful. To say, simply, that the events of The Eight Doctors are what happened directly after the television movie is entirely biased towards that particular medium. There's no reason in the world why Storm Warning, End Game, or Dreadnought can't equally be viewed as the immediate post-TVM story.

The first duty of this wiki shouldn't be "write it in-universe", but rather "avoid bias". The Eighth Doctor is an obvious exception to the general guideline to write in-universe, because doing so immediately causes bias. You have to choose a place to start the biography, and that choice reveals your bias. It would be best if this article had four sections — Radio Times continuity, DWM continuity, Big Finish continuity, EDA continuity — and then explored each of those branches as separate. To the minor extent that there are crossovers — Placebo Effect, for instance — a little background note would suffice to explain the event as an attempt to integrate the events of one medium into another.

On the whole, though, it's folly — but most of all, unhelpful — to try to place all these events into a cohesive, singular biography. The defining characteristic of the "Eighth Doctor's era" is its lack of definition. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 18:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that if you try and force all of the strands into one chronology you inevitably end up making your favourite the most real one. Whether that means going with the audios or comics and 'explaining away' the novels, or whether that means going with the novels and 'fitting in' the audios and comics. Very convincing Complete Eighth Doctor Biographies can be produced, and I'm very attached to my own mental one, but they all depend on massive ammount of speculation and bias.

On the other hand...I don't think this means we have to step 'out of universe'. As you say the defining aspect of his era has been a lack of definition, but that's as true 'in universe(s)' as without. The Big Finish Eighth Doctor's life has been an arc about a paradox, the BBC Novel's Eighth Doctor's life has been an arc about a paradox...

Why not start the biography with a brief section on the uncertain nature of the Eighth Doctor's life, referencing that great quote about it from The Gallifrey Chronicles -

"Look at the rest of the Doctor's time-stream, though. It's meant to be a neat line. The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail out of this chaos I don't know.

Whether you put it down to Charely Pollard or Faction Paradox, it's an in universe fact that this guy's timelines are shot to hell.

You could then divide the biography up into sections on the three different continuites and present them with equal weight, a disclaimer noting the uncertainty as to how they fit together.

The biography could then end with a 'Behind the scenes'/Speculative section detailing the different ways that have been suggested as to how it all might fit together.--Richard Jones 21:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with Richard, on both the complexity and the breaking it all up, but only if it's absolutely necessary (and also allows to give equal weight to everything), so we could have the Big Finish run, the EDA and the DWMs.

As to time placement of certain stories Storm Warning does not take place straight after the TVM (as it's placement is explained in Terror Firma). Endgame opens in such a way that it's not explicit as to where it starts. The Eight Doctors is the starting point because it directly references the TVM and leaves (little) room to manouvere.

On a side note, there isn't anything (hugely) contradictorary in the Eighth Doctor time line (okay it's all over the place but there's are no huge inexplipible problems)...unlike the for example Ace and the Seventh Doctor (in which DWM comics serious muck everything up with different POVs of Ace and Gallifrey).

It may be folly, however Lance Parkin's AHistory puts everything (well the Big Finishes, TV stories and Novels) in one cohesive continuity, so I see no reason why it can't be written (as mentioned the only slight problem is the DWM comics, but as Richard has said there are various ways that can be explained).

Also, even if we break up the sections there is the slight problem that only 1 out of the 3 is finished; the DWM comics, the EDAs ended on a cliffhanger with The Gallifey Chronicles and the BFAs are still going. So even broken up the individual parts couldn't be re-integrated into one continuity.

Most timelines are based on best guesses, the Eighth Doctor one is based on where things could go (for example the everything up to Zagreus has to take place before The Ancestor Cell...probably) The Big Finish and DWM comics have to take place from the TVM up to The Ancestor Cell or (potentially) after The Gallifrey Chronicles. --Tangerineduel 05:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It's well established that The Dying Days and the Radio Times strips take place in the pre-Vampire Science gap, so there'd be no need to separate those out. What I think we should be considering is something like this...--Richard Jones 12:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That looks okay. (Just one tiny note...there should be a space between the : and the story title) sorry to be a bit picky. (Ie BFA: Zagreus) --Tangerineduel 13:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please be as picky as you like! This is my first time editing a wiki, so I'm relying on others to watch me like hawks. Once a few more people have had a chance to look at the proposal, I'll see about incorporating it into the article. --Richard Jones 14:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Biographical Structure

Birth Cry

Summary of the TVM. Ending with...

The Temporal Orbit, travelling back into his own timestream to undo events in which he had been involved, was the Eighth Doctor's 'birth cry' (EDA:Unnatural History), heralding a life of considerable complexity. Those attempting to view the Eighth Doctor's time-stream would find it not a neat line (EDA:The Gallifrey Chronicles) but rather a chaos of paradoxes (EDA:Interference, BFA:Storm Warning) and parallel time lines (BFA: Zagreus, EDA:Time Zero).

Consequently, although several periods of the Eighth Doctor's life are well documented, there remains no definitive account of how these eras relate to each other.

Life, Death and Amnesia

Biography of the EDA/Dying Days/Radio Times era. From The Eight Doctors through to The Gallifrey Chronicles. Noting the big gaps in which the adventures of the other media may take place, but not offering conjecture on which do.

There's a slight mistake with this part - he didn't *still* have post-regenerative amnaesia. His memory was wiped by a trap laid by The Master. Shouldn't this be corrected?

Yeah i've corrected it now --Revanvolatrelundar 15:39, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Izzy and Destrii

Biography of the DWM era.

Travelling with Charley

Biography of the main Big Finish era.

Travelling with Lucie

Biography of the BBC7 era (I think it's best to separate the two audio eras up, as it's perfectly possible for someone to think the Charley-era happens sometime pre-The Ancestor Cell while the Lucie-era happens sometime post-The Gallifrey Chronicles. I know I do.

Behind the Scenes

Brief account of how the three continuities stopped playing nice, and a list of some of the suggested options by which fans can slot them all in together.

Myself I like putting the DWM strips in the pre-Vampire Science gap, the Charley audios in the pre-Blue Angel gap, and the Lucie audios after the Gallifrey Chronicles and the restoration of Gallifrey. But there's no right answer here and it would be a big ol' fib for the wikia to pretend there was.

This section might as well also note Lance Parkin's suggestion that The Infinity Doctors could be set late in the Eighth Doctor's life.

--Richard Jones 12:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Oi!

Can someone please fill in the info on the doctors travels with Izzy and Destrii? Those adventures are way better than the EDA's and BF's, i mean come on, Children of the Revolution is way better than War of the Daleks and Legacy of the Daleks combined! 80.7.4.109 16:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)HH80.7.4.109 16:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the above section shows a proposed way to include all of the doctors travels but if it still hasn't been done then you can always add it yourself Dark Lord Xander 00:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

alternatively, buy me a nice set of Eighth Doctor graphic novels. --Stardizzy2 19:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Half human

$<math>Insertformulahere$</math> Ive never edited here, but am a big fan of the this site. I recently rewatched the 1996 movie and to me the half human comment seemed like a joke. The Doctor knows not to ust tell random humans that he's an alien, especially not when trying to be covert like he was there trying to steal part of the Atomic Clock. His comment to the man about being half human on his mother's side elicited a feigned chuckle and then the man walked away, turned off by the Doctor's strangeness. This allowed them to proceed to their goal. The way the Doctor has shown a keen understanding of human psychology and often uses this to his advantage, is it possible he simply said he was half human to serve his needs and get rid of the man. I've never read any of his novels or listened to the audio plays so maybe I'm wrong and he says he's half human several times. I just thought I'd contribute my opinion and let others decide if it was worth adusting on the page.

It still seems to be an uncertain thing, and there are many conflicting ideas about it. The fact that the Master also tells Lee that the Doctor is half-human, and then seemingly uses that knowledge in order to open the Eye of Harmony, strongly indicates that the authors intended to portray that the Doctor is indeed half-human. As I said though, there are many theories out there...All part of the mystery of the Doctor I suppose :) Spreee 06:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)Spreee

• The comic book The Forgotten offers an explanination for that Bigshowbower 06:41, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
• That's one possibility, although it does seem to be at odds with the Doctor's statement in Human Nature which gives the impression that he had not used the chameleon arch before. Spreee 17:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)Spreee

• Ive always thought the effect of Human drugs plus post regeneration, played a part in him thinking he was half human, as the Third Doctor said "a teaspoon of asprin can kill him" or somthing to that affect, so what could the various drugs used in surgery do to him Bigshowbower 05:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Rumors of McGann appearing in the 2009 Specials

This rumor was debunked by BBC a week ago, so I've added a note to that effect. I thought it would be better to add the note rather than take down the rummor since the news is still sort of new. I had the thought that if I just deleted the rumor, someone who's heard the rumor but not the BBC response to it might add it back. If anyone wants to delete it altogether in the future, go right ahead. LostRaccoon 22:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I Have moved it to the other behind the scenes section and think its a good idea to keep it their to squash any attempts to re-write it. --Dark Lord Xander 00:35, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Ordering of the Eras

I realize that there will never be a definitive chronology/cardinality of the various Eighth Doctor eras, but might I suggest that the comic adventures happened last? Two points in favor of this interpretation: 1) Comics end with an adventure featuring "new" or "evolved" Cybermen; The audios and books contain adventures with classic Cybermen. 2) The comics *almost* ended with the regeneration into the Ninth Doctor. (See author's notes in "The Flood") RTD apparently suggested the regeneration taking place and this was rejected primarily because the comics were then in the middle of a story arc which the author did not wish to interrupt or force an ending upon.

as to point 1), that makes "The Flood" late in the Cybermen's history, not the Doctor's. after all, the Doctor had dip in and out of the Cybermen's timeline.

since we can never figure this out, it makes most sense to place these in real world order, as much as possible. (most of the various media came out at the same time, hence the "as much as possible". except when very obvious--Stardizzy2 19:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Multiple Timelines

I think the multiple timelines interpretation makes the most sense, as there are three different timelines, and three different versions of the ninth Doctor. (EDA:The Gallifrey Chronicles)

I'm new, so I'm not sure if that's article material or not (under the first Behind the Scenes is where I'd put it)

Source for this?

"New Eighth Doctor Adventures act as the sequel to this audio dramas, leading up to the Last Great Time War and the end of the Eighth Doctor in the series 4 finale."

If this is true, this is a happy day indeed for me. But I've searched, and all I can find out about the 4th series of the New Eighth Doctor Adventures is that Lucie is leaving in the first one, so I'd like to know if this actually comes from a source, or is just another ideal rumour.

The Forgotten is not a reliable source

Okay, this thing's been bugging me for two days now. The Forgotten is mentioned so many times in this article, my head's spinning. A tiny lil 8 page sequence is totally taking control of this article, because people are absolutely desperate for it to be the final, clinching proof that the Eighth Doctor was in the Time War. And at first I thought I'd remembered there was no mention whatsoever to the Time War, and, indeed, there wasn't in the pages that actually feature the 8th Doctor. But then I read on a bit more in the issue and the Tenth Doctor appears to directly tie the Eighth to the Time War. So I rolled back some edits I'd made. But it was still bugging me, because it just doesn't make sense that an American comic book company would decide that they were going to do what RTD has steadfastly refused to do. The BBC still have editorial control over IDW's DW output. Sp I went back and read all six issues, from beginning to end. And here's the thing: the entire thing is a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing. By the time you get to the end, you realize it's all a dream. Throughout the entire thing Ten's having a hard time remembering any of these little episodes from past incarnations, so that right there casts doubt on the veracity of what he's saying. But then when you get to the end, it's not just that he's having a dream, but a dream within the TARDIS' Matrix. You can't trust a damn thing the story says about his past. I mean it's a nice story, a fun romp through nostalgia, but none of it can be thought of as real. So I think we need to strongly consider wholly rewriting that section about the Time War, and possibly eliminate it as a freestanding section. The events of The Forgotten can be in the 'discrepancies' section, or something like that. But the way this article is now gives far, far too much credence to the story. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 03:00, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

• This issue has been covered before. All licensed material is considered to have the same weight, whether it's a comic book or a novel or an episode. If you start picking and choosing, then everything falls apart and we have to disqualify everything that doesn't appear on television. Like Star Trek does. The rule as I understand it - and I believe Tangerineduel will back me up - is unless there is clear contradiction, and as long as it's got licence from the BBC, everything counts. (Exceptions include unofficial works, of course, as well as minor items such as, say, the BBC Writers Comics from the website. Also, occasions in which a story in one medium has been remade on TV - Human Nature, etc. - create a special case where the TV version prevails. This also goes for novelisations, though if you look at regeneration you'll see material from Saward's Twin Dilemma novel, in which he tried to explain how the process works, has been incorporated.) Bottom line is, until the TV series contradicts The Forgotten, then it prevails as the account of record. 23skidoo 00:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

The Last Great Time War

The page currently states: "No connection, not even an oblique one, has been made between the Eighth Doctor and the Time War on television."

Actually, there is an oblique one. In "Rose", the Ninth Doctor looks into a mirror and remarks on his appearance as one seeing it for the first time, "Oh. Coulda been worse. Look at the ears," which implies that his regeneration is quite recent. I always took that to mean that the Eighth Doctor was the one who fought through most, if not all the Time War.

Just my two cents here, but I don't see how there can really be any doubt on this issue. As stated above, the Ninth Doctor was clearly unfamilar with his latest visage. Are we really to believe he regenerated, went through all the attendant post-regenerative upheaval and then fought in- and ended- the Last Great Time War without ever once glancing even briefly in a reflective surface? What about the people around him, would none of them comment on his new appearance?

Then there's the issue of the Ninth Doctor's solo adventures, pre-Rose, as doccumented by Clive. With the peculiarities of time travel, Nine may well have gone off sightseeing (Kennedy assassination (again)... Titanic (again)...) after he left the Powell Estate the first time (after retrieving the arm) and been on his own for years before going back to stop the Nestene. I know this wouldn't really be his style, I only throw this theory out there as it offers a longer life for the Ninth Doctor than a subjective few months! And besides, he was traumatised, who could blame him for taking a break from world-saving to rethink things, especially since he didn't seem to want another companion until he met Rose. However, Clive's photograph of that family who cancelled their trip on the Titanic (name escapes me) shows the Ninth Doctor in period clothing vaguely similar to the Eighth's attire- Eccleston was specially costumed and photographed, if memory serves- and since it was firmly established that the Ninth Doctor never changes his clothes to fit the period he visits, I'm guessing this was meant as a hint that he had only very recently regenerated when the picture was taken.

It may not have been specifically stated in dialogue, but the implication has always seemed to be that the Eighth Doctor fought the Time War and his regeneration happened as a consequence. Remember the Tenth Doctor recalling his previous incarnation to Rose, in "Journey's End"; "born in battle, full of blood and anger and revenge..."

It is medically known that one can die of grief so when the doctor used the moment and killed everyone in the time war the greif from killing his own people would have driven his body to shutdown forcing his regeneration.--FossilLord 19:46, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

old doctor

When is the eighth doctor refered to as this??? Geek Mythology 20:15, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

the people of orbis call him it in Orbis (audio story) Revanvolatrelundar 17:37, July 27, 2010 (UTC)