Howling:No Cybus Cybermen?

The Howling → No Cybus Cybermen?

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It's shown in The Pandorica Opens that Amy Pond doesn't appear to recognise a Cybermen of the Cybus variety when she sees one, and I think this is also the case in one of the Adventure Games, despite them having appeared in large numbers across the world only a couple of years earlier. And most recently, in Closing Time, we see that Craig Owens doesn't know what they are either. This is similar to Amy's reaction to the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks, where it was eventually revealed to be due to the Time Cracks erasing things from existence. Now if we assume that the same thing happened with the Cybus army in Army of Ghosts/Doomsday, we're left with some problems. For one, without the Cybusmen, how could the Battle of Canary Wharf have occured, in which Torchwood 1 fell? And how could Ianto Jones' girlfriend Lisa have been Cyberised? Ianto's issues with finding a cure for Lisa hugely affected his interactions with the rest of the Torchwood team, and him losing her when and how he did was part of what lead to his developing relationship with Jack. My point is that without the Cybus army, the past lives of various characters are heavily distorted. I, for one, would like the events of Cyberwoman to still have occured, if only for the characters' lives to make sense and for such past stories to still be a worth a damn. 82.2.136.93 11:11, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

This is one of several issues under discussion having to do with the effects of the cracks and rebooting the Universe in The Big Bang. I suggest you take a look at Howling: If the Doctor Never Existed and see if the answer lies there.Boblipton ^{talk to me} 11:51, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

Damnit, Boblipton, with your conflicting edits... I'm still putting my post though.

It was frequently stated in Series 5 that while things were erased from history by the Cracks that the effects of the things they erased still happened. In other words Torchwood 1 still fell even though there was never any Cybermen or Daleks, Amy still existed even though she never had any parents, the Byzantium still crashed even though there was never any Weeping Angels, and Earth still existed even though stars had never existed. This issue has been discussed Ad nauseum and there is even a current on-going discussion about the issue. The Light6 ^{talk to me} 11:58, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's also possible that she either managed to miss the Cyber-invasion like Donna did, or she just didn't recognize a disembodied Cyberarm. If any Cybermen she encountered only referred to themselves as human 2.0, then she wouldn't recognize the name Cyberman either, and when she saw a cyberhead or a giant one armed headless cyberman coming to attack her, she was hardly going to say "oh so that's a cyberman. Yeah, I've seen those before."Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 19:11, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

uh...Amy lives in a remote village with no airport...do we even need an explanation for her to not know about the Cybermen?

Yes because the Cybermen were all over the world. The Light6 ^{talk to me} 01:40, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Were they all over the world? I don't think we actually saw them anywhere but major cities, although we didn't see anything but London except on the News. Still, it's very plausible that a small town like Leadworth only had one or two "ghosts," and Amy could have easily missed them turning into Cybermen.Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 02:56, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be safe to say that the reason they only showed them in major cities is because it was to show that they were all over the world, I mean they could've showed a random little town but that could be anywhere, but by showing major iconic cities showed the global nature of the "ghosts", in other words: it was probably a production choice. The Light6 ^{talk to me} 10:41, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

But if there were that many ghosts in a small town like Leadworth, there would be more "ghosts" than humans. Since the "ghosts" were actually an invasion force, most of their forces were probably in the big cities, with much smaller numbers centered in small towns like Leadworth. Amy probably would have been aware of the "ghost," but she could have easily missed the part where they all turned into Cybermen. Icecreamdif ^{talk to me} 18:23, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Would've been much cheaper to have them invade small towns. You shoot and show the print and the cbermen are invading Leadworth. You flop the print and it's Ahstabula. In any case, I expect the Cyberneb did not invad. Torchwood One was shut down in any economy move. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 18:56, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, Cybermen in Leadworth? It does seem like an unlikely scenario. If the Cybermen were transporting through some sort of station, is it practical to install stations in every town, city, village even small town like Leadworth? If the Cybermen were just transported from whatever corresponding location they were in, is it likely that they would invade Leadworth or have any sort of facility near there? Let's not forget that the Cybus Cybermen were never shown to have ruled/conquered the entire Pete's world. Crack or no crack influence, I would readily accept the idea that Amy didn't learn of the Cybus Cybermen. As for the "ghosts all over the world" thing, I think you took it a bit too literally. At the beginning of this year, mass collective deaths of animals "all over the world" were reported, but certainly not in my city and I don't think my city is drifting in space. Fans from "all over the world" goes to a Lady Gaga's concert, but I doubt that includes a secluded Amazon tribe. Considering that Cybus Cybermen at that point were not shown to be space-faring yet and there were finite number of people on Pete's World and a certain numbers would be killed before they had a chance to be converted and a portion (likely large) unconverted, I don't think they would even have the resource to do that. The Cybermen also specifically mentioned that 5 million of them cross over, that's relatively small compared to the population of earth and with the significant numbers shown/implied to be in London, and presumably other capital/major cities, it is unlikely to be enough to be distributed to small towns.

--222.166.181.13 20:59, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

Amy I don't think ever explicitly stated she had never seen a Cyberman, and the Doctor never queried her on it. To be honest I think in TPO she was more concentrating on getting away from the Cyberman than wondering if she'd seen one before. 94.72.209.160^{talk to me} 18:33, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who'd seen one before (except, maybe, briefly and at a distance) wouldn't need to "wonder if she'd seen one before"! However, in The Pandorica Opens, Amy doesn't initially see a Cyberman, she sees detached bits of one and is told by the Doctor that the arm firing at them is from a Cyberman. Even someone who'd had a good look at the things, might not immediately recognise the bits. She also wouldn't recognise the name if she'd never heard it before. By the time she got a look at a reasonably complete specimen in that episode, she'd already had the Doctor's explanation and was busy fending off an attack, whilst woozy from being drugged and worried because the Doctor wasn't saying anything (he was unconscious). In the circumstances, she'd not be very likely to say, "Ah, yes, I remember these things but I didn't know they were called Cybermen." Immediately afterwards, she encountered Auton Rory and passed out from the drug. --89.242.75.91^{talk to me} 23:27, December 31, 2011 (UTC)