Howling:Moffat lied...again

The Howling → Moffat lied...again

There be spoilers about un-released stories here.
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Not a shock...rule 1, Moffat lies. Still, The Name of the Doctor (TV story) seemed disappointing in that hardly anything was resolved. We found out why there are multiple Clara's, but that was it. No secret was revealed. The whisper men were severely dissappointing. I had a feeling it would be continued, but watched it anyway. Sigh...I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens in Novemember. Still, it makes me upset to be promised a great secret revealed and then...nothing... Thoughts? Whosethebestwho ☎ 12:12, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Disagree

In addition I think River has been resolved and ended. Also we've basically been told there was another version of the person we know as the Doctor somewhere in his timeline, and it's some sort of Bizarro World Doctor. Also, and this moves more into theory than what we've actually been told, but Clara saw all of the versions in the Doctor's timeline. That's the eleven and the mystery figure. Throw in Handy Doctor to be number 13 and I think we're out of regenerations. Until they make something up obviously. --Laserbeak ☎ 13:31, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

Lots of things were resolved. The Trenzalore prophecy was fulfilled, Clara's mystery was solved, and the Doctor's greatest secret was revealed. That's quite a lot for one episode. Ensephylon ☎ 07:28, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

The trenzelore prophecy was not fulfilled. The Doctor did not reveal his name and silence did not fall. Moffat left us hanging on that one...again. The Doctor's greatest secret is his name and it was not revealed, not to any of the characters. River already knew it at this point, and she did not reveal it either. Moffat lied...again. As I said, the only thing resolved was Clara's secret. Also, the River Song arc was not resolved either. How did the Doctor see her? How was she still communicating when Clara was torn to bits? "Spoilers" that's how. Whosethebestwho ☎ 08:50, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the prophecy was not fulfilled. Dorium said that Trenzalore was a place "no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer," yet the Doctor failed to answer the question when the Intelligence demanded the answer. I think that this quality of forced truthfulness may have some role in the Doctor's last battle on Trenzalore. If so, that is one heck of a set up for something down the line (presuming the Doctor's seeing it hasn't changed the outcome). However, I don't think the title "The Name of "the Doctor" is as misleading as you might think. The Doctor's secret is the Doctor unworthy of the name of "The Doctor". By interweaving the various Doctors, Moffat is establishing what name "the Doctor" means: compassion, saving people, love, making them better. In doing so, he may be setting up Hurt's Doctor as the antithesis of those qualities. Memnarc ☎ 10:02, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

No, the prophecy was fulfilled. "Silence will/must fall when the Question is asked" is not a part of the prophecy, it's the core belief of the Silence, and it was already explained in "The Wedding Of River Song" as referring to the Doctor's "silence" which the Silence wants to ensure will fall when the Question is asked by killing the Doctor before he reaches Trenzalore (because if he is dead, then the Question can only answered with his silence, since he won't be able to answer it). The actual prophecy is "on the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, where no living creatue can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked; a question that must never, ever be answered." There is no mention of silence "falling" in that prophecy, and thus "silence will fall" is not something that has to be fulfilled. If anything, "silence will fall" is the Silence's response to the original prophecy. They know that the Question can never be answered on Trenzalore, so what do they do to make sure it won't be? They kill the Doctor before he gets there, so that when the Question is asked, there will be only silence. Furthermore, the Doctor outright stated that his real name doesn't matter, and that it isn't his "greatest secret." His "greatest secret" is the not-Doctor played by John Hurt, as he is the Doctor that went against the very meaning of his chosen name; his "promise." As for the Doctor being able to see River, the Doctor is a low-level telepath so it isn't very hard to believe that he was merely "picking up" on the psychic conversation that Clara was actively having right in front of him, and River was still connected at the end because Clara was still alive. That's why she said "if Clara's dead, how can I still be here?" Well the simple answer is because she isn't dead, which is why the Doctor was able to save her. Ensephylon ☎ 15:47, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Everything you said is pure speculation. The Silence is a religious order. they were not in the episode. As far as we know there is no connection between them and The Great Intelligence (at least none has been seen yet). Also, we don't know how the doctor was able to see River Song. All she said as "spoilers." That means we will probably find out later on. Basically, the only point to this episode was to lead in to the the 50th Anniversary Special. I had suspected as much, but watched it anyway. It wasn't a bad episode in its own right, it just did not live up to the promises of its producer, and that is where my disappointment lies. Whosethebestwho ☎ 03:22, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

The stuff about the Silence wanting to prevent the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore isn't speculation. It's confirmed in "The Wedding of River Song." They believe that silence must fall when the Question is asked on Trenzalore; that it is absolutely imperative that the Doctor never makes it there, and they intend to ensure that outcome by killing him. This is what Series 6 was all about. Whether or not they knew that the Great Intelligence specifically would be the one to ask the Question is debatable, but the prophecy did say that the Question must never be answered. The Silence must have taken that warning to heart, seeing as how they built up an entire religion around it. So either way, whether they know about the GI's involvement or not, it doesn't matter, because their ultimate goal is to kill the Doctor before he gets to Trenzalore in order to make sure that his silence falls when the Question is asked, and thus it will remain unanswered as the prophecy demands. Furthermore, it is not speculation that John Hurt is what the Doctor's secret refers to. He said it outright in the episode: "My name, my real name, that's not the point... he's my secret," which is perfectly in line with what Moffat said would be revealed in the episode (the Doctor's greatest secret). The other two things may not be confirmed, but I'd say they're pretty likely considering that a) we do know for a fact that the Doctor is telepathic, and b) Clara turned out to be alive at the end of the episode (albeit within the Doctor's time tunnel), and River's statement implied that her connection was predicated upon Clara being alive. Since she was, in fact, alive, the persistent connection is justified. Ensephylon ☎ 03:41, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You are correct about Hurt's doctor (but not "the doctor") being the greatest secret. However you are not correct about the silence. The reason the silence wanted to kill the doctor is because THEY would fall when the question was answered. We did not see the fall and we did not see the question answered. It does happen at trenzalore and that might well be what the huge battle was over (though this is just speculation on my part), but we did not see the question get answered and we did not see the fall of the silence. Those are still unresolved issues. The only issue resolved in this episode was the "impossible girl." Whosethebestwho ☎ 04:46, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Rewatch "The Wedding of River Song". You may pick up on these two explanations:

Dorium: On the Fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered.

Doctor: Silence will fall when the question is asked.

Dorium: Silence must fall would be a better translation. The Silence are determined the question will never be answered. That the Doctor will never reach Trenzalore.

This proves that the Silence's ultimate goal is to kill the Doctor and to prevent him from reaching Trenzalore and answering the Question.

Churchill: But what was the question? Why did it mean your death?

Doctor: Suppose there was a man who knew a secret. A terrible, dangerous secret that must never be told. How would you erase that secret from the world? Destroy it forever, before it can be spoken.

Churchill: If I had to, I'd destroy the man.

Doctor: And silence would fall. All the times I've heard those words, I never realised it was my silence, my death. The Doctor will fall.

This quote proves that "silence must fall" does indeed refer to the Doctor's silence, which, if he is killed before he gets to Trenzalore, will fall in response to the Question when it is asked, because he will be dead and unable to answer it. The Silence will have succeeded in their goal. Now, I've provided quotes from the show itself to back up what I'm saying. If anything is speculation, it's your assertion that "silence will fall" refers to the defeat of the religious order, which is in no way supported by the show. And lastly, we did see the fulfillment of the prophecy. Eleven and Clara fell onto Trenzalore when the Doctor turned off the antigrav system (when Clara says "how do we get down; do we jump?", the Doctor explicitly corrects her by saying, "no, we fall.") The Question (Doctor Who?) was answered by River. Just because we didn't hear the answer doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Ensephylon ☎ 05:19, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ensephylon: That quote doesn't prove that "silence must fall" refers to the Doctor's silence. What it proves is that the Doctor thinks that's what it refers to. He may be right, of course, but quoting him doesn't (& can't) prove he is. I could quote Neville Chamberlain saying that Hitler's signature on a piece of paper meant "peace in our time" but that doesn't prove it did mean peace; quite notoriously, it meant nothing of the kind.

It's the quote from Dorium that's the better evidence, here. At the very least, it shows that the Doctor's silence is what the Silence intend. --89.240.249.124^{talk to me} 07:44, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point, but the dialogue is there for a reason. The Doctor is explaining the situation that the Silence has put him in to Churchill (consider him an audience surrogate in this instance). Churchill wanted to know why the Question meant the Doctor had to die, and the Doctor outlined the Silence's logic for him. If there was a man (the Doctor) who knew a dangerous secret (the answer to the Question), how would you erase that secret from the world before it could be spoken? You'd kill him (by a lakeside), and, as the Doctor explains, silence would fall. The man's silence. Plus, the Doctor has come to a realization after being told what the Question is by Dorium. He may have never realized what those words meant before, but now that he knows what the Question is and that the Silence want him dead so that he can't answer it, he understands the meaning of the phrase. "Silence must fall when the Question is asked," and he knows that the Silence want him dead so that he cannot answer the Question. The logical conclusion is that the silence that must fall is his own; that he must be dead by the time the Question is asked. Ensephylon ☎ 08:12, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

You're right enough about the purpose of the dialogue & it does put the situation across clearly for anyone who's not quite got the message by that stage. It's just that Dorium's statement is the better evidence, even if it's not the clearer exposition -- a bit like witness testimony that's followed by a lawyer explaining to the jury what the testimony means. --89.240.249.124^{talk to me} 10:05, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry but you are both wrong. Dorium said, "when no living creature can speak falsely, or fail to answer, a question will be asked." Guess what? The Doctor failed to answer. Furthermore the Doctor was not silent. he was pleading with GI the whole time. Finally, he did not die. None of the interpretations you have speculated on have been seen. The prophecy has not been resolved. That being said, I will grant the "fall of the eleventh" could refer to the doctor falling to trenzelore. It could also refer to his fall at the major battle that the GI alluded to. Frankly, it is the former, then Moffat needs to be fired,but that's just my opnion. Either way, the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Whosethebestwho ☎ 09:45, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot of discussion about the "fail to answer" clause, but no one is talking about the restriction "living" placed on the subject of both "can speak" and "can fail to answer." In The Name of the Doctor (TV story), River ended up (apparently) speaking the Doctor's name, and she's supposedly a data echo saved in the Library (Forest of the Dead (TV story)), not a "living creature."98.180.49.69^{talk to me} 18:29, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's in my slowly progressing response to many arguments made on this thread. I will acknowledge that I hadn't considered the fact that River would hardly count as a living being that's certainly interesting, thank you.DCT ☎ 12:36, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

98 has spotted something that's likely to be significant. It'd certainly explain why Moffat made River's appearance in this episode her first (&, so far, only) post mortem appearance. All her other appearances since Forest of the Dead have been earlier in her timeline. It would have been easy for Moffat to make this one the same, yet he chose to make it later in her timeline. --2.101.63.75^{talk to me} 18:20, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd go that far. That factor is more easily explained by the fact in enables River to say the Doctor's name, and thus move the plot forward, without anyone having to hear it.DCT ☎ 15:23, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I ought to point out that we don't actually know she did say his name. The Doctor said that that was how the TARDIS could be made to open & River said that she'd said his name -- but nobody else heard her do so & both of them are well known to lie. We know that River does know the Doctor's name but we also know that the TARDIS will cooperate with her anyway (as in Let's Kill Hitler, when River was surprised that the TARDIS helped her). Moffat has left plenty of room for doubt & he could turn round later on & tell us River didn't say the Doctor's name. --2.101.62.165^{talk to me} 16:20, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

Who is River supposed to be lying to? She was answering the Doctor's question but she genuinely didn't believe he could hear her. Therefore her response is basically an aside. She said it for our benefit but not with the awareness of our presence. Lying for our benefit is a fourth wall violation and there's no evidence of that.DCT ☎ 14:23, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

River knew Clara could hear her & had been relaying what she said to the Doctor. That was how they found the secret entrance, earlier on. --2.96.16.231^{talk to me} 15:22, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

There was no evidence from the show that Clara was paying attention to River at that point or even heard what she said. The episode strongly suggested that this is the end for River. We may see her again because she had more adventures with the Doctor in her past but currently it seems we're meant to understand what just happened as her death. Which would make it difficult to resolve her reasons for lying.DCT ☎ 12:59, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Even if Clara wasn't paying attention to River, how could River be sure of that? In any case, River's reasons for lying are usually that she knows something (having learned it in her past) that's still in the future of those she is talking to. She may not now have a future but they still do. It's their future, not her own, that she's protecting. --2.96.28.29^{talk to me} 14:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

That's not the point. This conversation begun with the observation that River doesn't qualify as a "creature" as defined by Dorium's warning. It requires the assumption that this is what The Silence was trying to prevent. That isn't at all proved but if it is so River must have said the Doctor's name. If there is any other way to get that door to open it defeats the whole point of the story. If it's not the resolution of the prophecy, something which is very likely, it still doesn't change anything because it remains that if the Doctor's name is the only thing that can open that door, than that is the only thing it should be. Otherwise its a pointless secret in context.DCT ☎ 15:52, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

I've not said that River didn't say the Doctor's name. I've only pointed out that we don't know for sure that she did.

"If there is any other way to get that door to open it defeats the whole point of the story." It doesn't. It would only defeat the point of the story if the Silence (or the GI) knew there was another way.

"Otherwise its a pointless secret in context." Of course it is -- but only if you assume you have it in the right context. You may not.

Why is the Doctor's name a secret? Because it's the password to his tomb? Probably not. Much more likely is that it was used as the password because it was secret. That is, it was already a secret that almost nobody either knew or could discover, for some other reason that we still don't know about. When you choose a password, you choose (or ought to choose) something you're sure that others don't know & can't find out. You don't (if you've any sense) pick something that others do know & then try to turn it into a secret. The secrecy comes first. --2.96.28.29^{talk to me} 18:14, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

"I've not said that River didn't say the Doctor's name. I've only pointed out that we don't know for sure that she did." Ah, good a position of reasoning from which to start. We know what she said. Yes, she could have been lying but as I recall her tone was her slightly smug "I know better than you" tone. She was addressing the Doctor if the excited belief he couldn't hear and reprimand her, it's her tone that tells us she's not saying it for Clara to relay to the Doctor.

Yes, she could be lying. But so could the Doctor when he says he can always see her. Her "sudden" visibility could just as easily be due to her being connected to Clara and Clara being lost in the Doctor's time stream but that's not what we're told. Arguing that characters might be lying is such a prevalent possibility we can tie ourselves in knots arguing that one. There needs to be means by which we can identify what is and isn't, or might not be true, so we can fairly assess most of the information we are given. I'm hoping to discuss the complexities of this further in the long response that I started but have yet to finish but in this case the cues that River should probably be taken as telling the truth are her delivery of the line and the fact that the story tells us that his name was his chosen "password" to get into his tomb. Yes, I agree it probably isn't the sole reason he protects his name, though it may be for many renegade Time Lords, nevertheless if we believe that he chose it for that reason, ie to make it virtually impossible to access his tomb, then it would be very silly to have an alternative means to get in. The importance of protecting his time stream tells against that.DCT ☎ 13:55, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

"Furthermore the Doctor was not silent": He was silent on the thing that mattered. The word "silent" is very often used to mean something other than a literal lack of sound, or even of speech. He kept silent about his name by babbling away about something else. As you say, "The Doctor failed to answer."

Anyway, what Dorium's words showed was, as I said, that the Doctor's silence is what the Silence intended. It was why they tried to kill him. They failed to put their intention into effect but that doesn't change the fact that it was their intention.

On the "fall of the eleventh": Yes, it could refer to the Doctor falling to Trenzalore. Like you, though, I think that would be too much of a cheat -- far too much! It could also refer to his death. But it could mean something else: a moral fall, a fall from dignity, &c. There's no shortage of possible meanings.

The thing hasn't been resolved. The episode ended with "To be continued", so we've no excuse for not knowing it ain't over yet. It could be resolved (for all we currently know) by the prophecy being falsified, rather than fulfilled. (I was 89 earlier.) --2.96.29.191^{talk to me} 10:58, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

i thought it could possibly be taken from the epoisode that the prophecy will be fullfilled at the actuall battle of trenzalore when the doctor dies. obviously we dpont know who is was fighting or the circumstances of his death. and in the end even though the river song arc seem to be finished she still needs to be told his name......and i know !! dismisssed his names importance but 10 sure did make a big deal about it.....it isnt finished with and i think the prophency will be revisited at the return to trenzalore.

maybe next series we will see 'the fall of the 11th ' at trenzalore he will fight in a batttle and loose the prophecy will be fullfilled and he will die...this causes the emergence of the Hurt doctor and the Change in doctor who that moffat has been talking about87.83.10.218^{talk to me} 09:47, May 23, 2013 (UTC)

"...at the fall of the Eleventh..." I think the lines, "So, how do we get down there? Jump?", "Don't be silly. We fall," were written as such explicitly to connect to the "fall" in the prophecy. Ancient prophecies can easily make big deals about the subtlest of details. And before someone says that, counting Hurt, Smith is the 12th, I think "the Eleventh" means the "11th Doctor", meaning only those who go by the name "the Doctor", meaning not Hurt, who "broke the promise" of the name "Doctor". —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 23:33, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

One thing that I thought after watching this was that "I'm in my own time line, and it's collapsing in on itself." could mean that A) John Hurt might be a pre-First Doctor (body age seems unrelated to length of existence - borne out in a number of regenerations), and B) that this might cause the entirety of the series to be relegated to alternate timeline, and allow the series to start over from scratch (alleviating the pressure of running out of regenerations in the process.... MOFFAT!!!!)

Conversation break

I agree that the Silence prophesy seems to be fulfilled, but I also share the confusion that River evidently was called post-"death", but how could Vastra have possibly pulled that off. Send a message to the library and communicate with a digital personality? Maybe. Accomplish the soporific and/or otherwise contact her in her "dreams"? Much more difficult. Much less the fact that getting a message to Clara was a matter of a couple of hundred years on one planet, but getting a time-sensitive message to River called for unknown thousands of years and planets or galaxies away... Whatever those "spoilers" are, they are pretty hardcore. (Also, on the matter of River being a continuing recurring character, we also have not seen her meet the Doctor for the first time - remember that their time lines run opposite, making her first meeting his last - much less the fact that technically she has been "dead" since the first time we saw her.)

Moffat is a mad genius, and he never ceases to amaze. He blew my mind again with The Name of the Doctor, and I'm sure that there is something even more mind blowing on the horizon.

Also, I would love to see a collection of all the poetry used in these episodes, especially since the Whisper Men were spouting stuff all over the place...50.136.57.243^{talk to me} 07:49, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

50, "River ... we also have not seen her meet the Doctor for the first time": We probably have. We saw her as a young girl (played by Sydney Wade) in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon & that seems likely to have been their first meeting in her timeline. We've also seen, in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, their first meeting in his timeline. (I was 89 & then 2 earlier.) --78.146.179.140^{talk to me} 09:57, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

To expand on 89/2/78's response, we've also seen the Alex Kingston River's first meeting with the Doctor, when she regenerated. River said they meet back to front, but I think that stopped being the case by Let's Kill Hitler. However, that doesn't mean she can't reappear at some point for a random adventure with the Doctor. Shambala108 ☎ 16:00, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

I hope we see more of River Song. She's Moffat's creation so we know he likes writing for her. But he also likes exploring new ideas and characters so The Name of the Doctor (TV story) might have been intended to be her swan song. I hope not though as I think she brings out a great, playful, flirty side of the Doctor.

@50, I have seen all of the Whispermen's verses written out somewhere but I'm not sure it was on this wiki. It could be TV.com or another site that has recaps.

Personally, I don't think that the prophecy has been fulfilled. There are too many loose ends, too many pieces that don't fit. I think when (if) it is fulfilled, it will drop like an anvil, it won't be in question. For example, why would the Silence want to avoid that moment so bad that they went to such great lengths to try to kill off the Doctor? They don't seem to be at all affected by events in The Name of the Doctor. Why did the Silence want to blow up the TARDIS, creating cracks in the entire universe? And if it wasn't the Silence, who was it?

I think Moffat can sometimes just rewrite history, create direct lines between events and people that seem unconnected, raise more questions than he answers. But when his story arcs do come to an end (like the Doctor's apparent death, like who is Melody Pond and what happened to her), they are resolved! Fans may not like the resolution, they might find it implausible. But it is over and done with. He moves on. I don't think we have reached The Fall of the Eleventh and I think that it will happen whenever the Doctor reaches his next regeneration. Badwolff ☎ 19:26, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Under that reasoning the Series 5 story line is over and we are not going to find out why the TARDIS exploded though we'd think it a very important issue. I don't think the fall of the eleventh has anything to do with the regeneration of the current Doctor. It's too obvious and it runs the risk of the audience getting fed up of waiting or Stephen Moffat going before Matt Smith does or numerous other possibilities that could scupper the story because Moffat is hinging it on other people's decisions. It's more or at least as likely that the fall of the eleventh, at least in our universe, means the end of November and the question will be asked at the 50th Anniversary whether Matt Smith is leaving or not.DCT ☎ 14:27, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well, this is just me, but I truly believe that at Trenzalore, The Doctor answered and spoke truthfully. He just did not answer the Question posed to him three times by the GI directly. Instead, he truthfully pleaded to have his friends left alone. It is still an answer and we have seen SM split hairs before.Boss MD ☎ 02:21, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

And even then, the Question was asked at Trenzalore, just as the prophecy foretold. Wouldn't going to Trenzalore twice to do the same thing be redundant? Ensephylon ☎ 05:18, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

You are right that "Let's Kill Hitler" marked their first meeting, but I don't think River would have gotten away with another "Spoilers..." unless there was still more to reveal of her time line. As for the prophesy being fulfilled or not, the Doctor has rewritten lots of events, so it is possible that he has changed the timeline enough that this is what the fulfillment looks like. On the other hand, I can totally see Moffat pull a double entendre with the "fall of the eleventh" also meaning the end of November.

Ultimately, though, I have to agree with Badwolff that when Moffat wants something finished, there is no question. All these issues right now just mean he isn't finished yet. I can't wait for November...Doram baramour ☎ 05:51, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

With recent cast developments, I see a return to Trenzalore for this epic battle that the Doctor was involved in (so much for light-hearted Christmas specials). The "question being asked that must be answered truthfully" only occurred at the moment of the Fall of the Eleventh. And I don't think we saw that in The Name of the Doctor. I understand that you disagree. That's fine by me. Just sharing my opinion. Badwolff ☎ 19:35, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the recent cast developments aren't too surprising given Matt Smith's recent evasiveness about anything past Christmas. I reference to this they simply add more to suspicions I've developed recently but don't really want to voice before the 50th. My reasons for doubting the meaning of The Fall Of The Eleventh are touched on elsewhere and also the subject of a response to earlier statements in this thread that I'm slowly working on.DCT ☎ 12:07, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

We dont know what exactly the Silence were trying to avoid, only that the Prophecy said the question should never be answered. GI asks the question in order to get into the Tomb, and gain his revenge on the Doctor. Vastra explains that because The Doctor has saved so many people, GI rewriting his history would be catastrophic. SO Clara does the Impossible, and avoids the catastrophe. If this is the catastrophe the Silence were unkowingly trying to avoid, then the Prophecy seems to have been dealt with. And while you may feel cheated that we did not hear the answer to the Question, it was Clara doing the Impossible who actually defeated the Prophecy, not the Doctor not answering the Question.And Clara & The Doctor are still on Trenzalore, so there is room for more on the Prophecy as well.Phil Stone ☎ 07:52, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

I don't care what the Doctor's name is. I just find it implausible that the Silence were trying (multiple ways) to kill The Doctor to prevent The Great Intelligence from interfering with his timeline. That goes to the question that prompoted another thread. What is the connection between the GI and the Silence? How would the Silence even know that the GI had this plan to interfere with the Doctor's timeline? And foreseen this encounter millennia earlier? Badwolff ☎ 21:10, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Who says that the Silence even knew that the GI would be the one to ask the Question? To me, that doesn't seem very likely, and it certainly isn't supported by the show. I think that the Silence were simply heeding the prophecy's warning that the Question must never be answered, and so they chose to kill the Doctor in order to make sure that he couldn't answer it (because really, it doesn't matter if the GI or Davros or the Rani or the Kandyman asks it, because they could all cause the same kind of destruction if it were to be answered). Ensephylon ☎ 09:11, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Ensephylon: I agree the Silence probably had no idea who'd ask the question. They seem to have been acting on incomplete information & (quite likely) treating the worst that could happen as being what will happen. As I've said elsewhere, if the Silence had known about the GI, their sensible course of action would have been to ally themselves with the Doctor against the GI. The Silence are supposed to have studied the Doctor. Something that ought to be very clear from his history is that helping him to defeat an enemy stands an excellent chance of working but becoming his enemy is a recipe for disaster. --2.96.28.29^{talk to me} 10:45, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, The Silence would probably have trouble communicating with the Doctor effectively enough to be his ally given the fact you usually can't remember them. As we saw in Day Of The Moon, the Doctor finds the concept of The Silence wholly distasteful and unless they can explain to him exactly what the danger is - difficult since they don't know - they seem like the sort of beings that the Doctor would be loath to ally himself with.DCT ☎ 12:59, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

The Silence seems willing to use people like Madame Kovarian as their Ambassadors to form alliances. They could try to make a deal with the Doctor, if they wanted to do so without giving away their position on earth. (Did we ever get an explanation as to why the future doctor who summoned his friends to watch him (appear) to die at Lake Silencio also sent them to Canton Everett Delaware III in 1969? What clue led him there?)

The whole Silence/Silents/Headless Monks/Marines/Church business seems to turn on the question of who created the prophecy, how did they convince the Silence, and their allies of its accuracy, and what where The Prophet's real motives. The callousness with which the Silent in the White House despatches Joy suggests even the motives of the Silence in this war are not altruistic. Madame Kovarian's reference to a long running war suggests something beyond the struggle to create a weapon to destroy the Doctor just to upset the prophecy.And if the war just refers to the Silence being kicked off Earth (thanks to the Doctor) then why would the Church ally with them? The Silence could use their hypnotic powers I suppose, but on who that they had not already told to kill them on sight? At the same time, it would seem that Kovarian must be refering to a war involving her alliance, rather than involving the prophet's themselves. Otherwise the long war suggests both the Daleks, give the Time war and the "Long Game" which 9 upset, and the Cybermen, another perrenial enemy whose military moves the Doctor traditionally upsets. If the Prophet's have ulterior motives, they may know the Doctor well enough to know that you cannot beat him (easily) with an army. A different sort of attack is required.Phil Stone ☎ 05:22, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Phil Stone: I'm not going to respond in detail now. There seems to be a lot of sense in what you say & I definitely need time to think about it.

In the meantime, you ask about Canton: As far as I'm aware, no explanation has been given. It looked as if Canton got involved only because he happened to be there in 1969 & the future Doctor included older Canton in the Lake Silencio "party" because he had been involved in 1969. For Amy & Rory, the events of 1969 were (at that point) still in their personal futures. For both older Canton & future Doctor, those events were already in their personal pasts. The future Doctor had confided in older Canton, telling him to bring the petrol (sorry, gasoline) & so on, because older Canton was the one for whom information about the events of 1969 wouldn't be "spoilers". The future Doctor could talk more freely to older Canton. Even for River, some of those events were still in her future. In any case, the Doctor's often as unsure about River's timeline as we are, so he needs to be cautious about "spoilers".

The possibility always exists, though, that there's something going on that we don't know about or that we just haven't yet noticed. Especially with Moffat doing the writing, that's a constant hazard. --89.241.69.221^{talk to me} 22:15, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Since older Canton was the one in whom the future Doctor could most readily confide, it's certainly significant that it was older Canton who assured the others that the body really was the Doctor & really was dead, shutting off the speculation & doubt (a clone? a copy?) that might have led them to discover that it was the Teselecta in the form of the Doctor. At minimum, older Canton must have been warned to squash anything that might lead to a close examination of the body or raise doubts about its authenticity. --89.241.69.221^{talk to me} 22:41, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

It may have just been intended to tie the end to the beginning, but when the Doctor is taking leave of President Nixon & Canton at the end of "Day of the Moon," he mentions to Canton that he will see him after the millenium, or something like that. It suggests that this Doctor, who will apparently "run" for over one hundred years before taking his friends to Lake Silencio, is already planning something.

What you said about River's timeline is interesting, since we have a scene where she compares diaries with the Doctor to find out "when" they are with respect to one another. It serves the obvious purpose of allowing the two different Doctors to differentiate themselves based on what they have experianced with River, as well as by stated age. But it may also be that the Doctor wanted to be sure that he got a particular "version" of River, who he could trust to follow his plan, (and may even been briefed in advance.)

One more thought: We see the scene of the Doctor's apparent death many times in this series. In one view we see him say to the Astronaut, Its ok, I know who you are. That is of course something that the Doctor with the special straw could not have said, because he is just learning Amy is pregnant, and its connection to River is long away. The solution is a second, older Doctor, who has learned the truth about his executioner. And while River shooting an objectionable hat threatens to become a habit, from the Doctor's perspective, its been more than a century since she shot the fez.Phil Stone ☎ 03:39, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Phil Stone: "from the Doctor's perspective, its been more than a century since she shot the fez" & we don't know how long it was for River, though presumably less than that.

To go back to your earlier points:

"The Silence seems willing to use people like Madame Kovarian as their Ambassadors to form alliances." Their attitude to Kovarian & co suggests the Silents see them more as disposable "front-(wo)men" than ambassadors. What we learned of them from Day of the Moon makes it seem that this is their normal attitude to all other races, except (presumably) any that pose a real threat to them.

"who created the prophecy, how did they convince the Silence, and their allies of its accuracy, and what were The Prophet's real motives[?]": Almost all discussions, including those about The Name of the Doctor, seem to take it for granted that the prophecy must be literally accurate, even if not yet correctly interpreted. To confuse the discussions further, the response of the Silence to the prophecy gets tangled up with the prophecy itself. The bit about "Silence will fall" (or "must fall") seems to me to be the response. It's what the Silence intend to do about it, not part of the actual prophecy.

The prophecy seems to say that allowing the question to be answered will produce some kind of catastrophe, of which the Silence is afraid. We still don't know what kind of catastrophe or for whom it would be a catastrophe. The Silence obviously believe that the "for whom" includes them but we don't know if they believe it includes anyone else. We certainly don't know that it does include anyone else.

If (say) allowing the question to be answered would result in the Silence failing to take control of the universe, they might regard that as a catastrophe but those they intended to subjugate would not.

We also don't know if whoever created the prophecy convinced anyone except the Silence that it was accurate. It's possible that the originator(s) of the prophecy convinced only the Silence & that the Silence then convinced others. What's more, the Silence could have distorted the prophecy in order to do that. Their callous attitude to others & their propensity for using others as their tools would make it natural for them to deceive their allies into acting against those allies' own interests, if that was in the interests of the Silence.

To sum up, so far:

• "who created the prophecy"? Unknown.
• "how did they convince the Silence"? Unknown.
• "and their allies"? We don't even know the originator(s) of the prophecy did that. The Silence might have done it, once they were convinced.
• Is the prophecy accurate? Unknown.
• What does the prophecy actually foretell? Unknown.
• "what were the Prophet's real motives"? Unknown.

There seems to be a radical shortage of reliable information. --89.240.242.125^{talk to me} 13:38, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

To continue:

"Madame Kovarian's reference to a long running war suggests something beyond the struggle to create a weapon...": Yes. What she said was that the "endless, bitter war ... against you, Doctor" was the reason for creating the weapon (Melody/River).

The thing that struck me most at the time (A Good Man Goes to War) was that that was the first the Doctor had heard of the "endless, bitter war" against him. Either 1. the Silence had been so brilliantly effective at concealing their role in events (& at concealing that many events were connected in a campaign) that even the Doctor had never become suspicious or 2. they were so hopelessly ineffective that he hadn't even noticed he was being attacked. The alternative possibility is that most of the events of the war take place in the Doctor's future & creating the weapon was an attempt to go back into his personal past & to stop him before the events of the war could happen.

It obviously is a time war (lower case) but that needn't mean a connection with the Last Great Time War (upper case), beyond the fact that both involve the Doctor.

The other very obvious fact is that the Silence behaved as if they were desperate -- as if, in fact, they were losing the war & losing it badly. --89.240.242.125^{talk to me} 14:05, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't assume the prophecy was legitimate, it might be a way to manipulate the Silence, or it might be a self fulfilling prophecy, in that because the Silence think the DOctor must die, as he said, it was his silence that must fall. The fact that there is a legitimate reason for the Doctor to not go to Trenzalore makes it easier to see why anyone might think the Prophecy applies to the Doctor. (It occurs to me that the John Hurt Doctor may actually be the one they do not want to get to Trenzalore, and the question to be avoided is along the lines of how many innocent lives can be sacrificed to save some number of others.) Context means so much, and everyone in the Doctor's world seems to know more than we do about what is/was/will be going on.

Its speculation, but if it is the future war to which Kovarian is refering, perhaps that is part of how she was persuaded to work for the Silence. I suspect that it may be important that the Silence have been on Earth as long as they have, but did not interfere with the Doctor till "now." And given the Silence have time travel access, it might be that they could act in the past before 1969 to protect some part of their influence on Earth. And I still suspect that John Hurt was the one for whom Porridge felt sorry, who ended the Cyber war at such great cost. I suspect this all ties together. Perhaps the systems that were destroyed were the home of the Silence, or where they would flee after 1969. Or perhaps they were just conned. While wars are plentful in history, bringing too many into one story is a little confusing. The point of doing would seem to be to either point out similarities or contrasts between the wars, or to eventually make it clear they are the same war. Which is perhaps why so many are speculating that this is all about the Time War.(It would be pretty sneaky for the Daleks to plant the Silence on Earth to use as a weapon thousands of years later. But not thousands of years for the Time Travelling Daleks who planted them.)Phil Stone ☎ 14:52, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

"I didn't assume the prophecy was legitimate": No. You didn't. That's why I said "almost all" instead of "all" seem to take it as if it has to be. I was aware I was agreeing with you in questioning that -- even if I didn't make it clear enough that I was aware of it.

It may be because of a wish for "poetic justice" but I find the possibility that the very manipulative Silence might themselves be being manipulated a very attractive idea.

Also attractive is the idea of an invented prophecy that's designed to be self-fulfilling.

I have reservations about the Daleks being the ultimate culprits but those reservations are because they've already appeared so often, which is really an out-of-universe consideration. In terms of in-universe logic, the Daleks do have a record of trying to cause wars between others, in order to weaken those others & give the Daleks an easier conquest afterwards. They did it, for example, in Frontier in Space & used the Master as their agent (not entirely successfully). --89.240.242.125^{talk to me} 17:00, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, my brain hurts! This conversation has moved so far from where it was a few days ago.

I had never even considered the source of the prophecy. On a TV show, where there is a limited amount of time and space for backstory, there is a lot of short hand and so I just took it on faith that the prophecy was a legitimate thing.

Thinking about Lake Silencio, it's still hard to wrap my mind around the fact that River's timeline goes "The Wedding of River Song" > "The Impossible Astronaut" and Series 6 (well, except for "Let's Kill Hitler)...because it's only after Wedding that River goes ahead and shoots the Teleselecta Doctor that we see in Astronaut. So, she has to pretend for all of that time that she doesn't know about the Doctor's plan and go through the motions of searching for herself as a little girl. And knowing all of the time that Rory & Amy were her parents but not saying anything until "A Good Man Goes to War." It's stunning the amount of secrets "Spoilers" covers. Badwolff ☎ 19:07, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Badwolff, "Oh, my brain hurts!": Welcome to the club!

"Spoilers!" does cover quite a lot. And what did River say, just before she faded out in "The Name of the Doctor"? -- "Spoilers!" :)

"On a TV show, where there is a limited amount of time and space for backstory...": Moffat uses that. More specifically, he uses the fact that viewers won't enquire too much about backstory that's been omitted. He did it a lot with River but not only with her. It allows him to put stuff in without explaining. Then, later on -- sometimes much later on -- he can pick up on the bits that are useful to whatever new idea he's developing & ignore the rest.

To be fair, he's not the first to do that. Ian Briggs did it in 1987 - 1989 with Ace. In Dragonfire, he simply had a 16-year-old girl from 20th-century Perivale living on the planet Svartos about two thousand million years in the future (has to be then, as Glitz was also there), because she'd been taken there by a "time storm". Briggs knew that was improbable & unexplained but left it that way. Two years later, when he wrote The Curse of Fenric, he picked up on that "time storm", mixed it with a few incidentals (like chess sets) from other stories that had been aired in the interim, & finally told us why & by whom Ace had been dumped on Svartos. He even took what had only been a minor touch of humour -- Ace beating the Doctor at chess when they were relaxing in the closing scene of a story -- & made that significant.

With River, Moffat has (eventually) explained what it suited him to explain & has kept open the option of leaving the rest unexplained by establishing that she & the Doctor have met many times that we've not seen -- we still know almost nothing about "Jim the Fish", for example.

With the prophecy, if he wants it to be a genuine prophecy, he can leave matters pretty much as they stand. He doesn't need to tell us where it came from &c. If, on the other hand, he wants to tell a story about how the Silence have been manipulated, he has the hooks on which to hang that story. Or, perhaps, some other writer in 40-odd years time will come back to it & explain it. That, after all, is exactly what Moffat did with the Great Intelligence. Until The Snowmen, we'd no idea of where the behind-the-scenes villain of 2 stories in 1967-8 had come from, nor why that villain had tried attacking the London Underground, of all places. --89.242.73.239^{talk to me} 00:22, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Your head hurts? Imagine how mine feels. I seem to have posted the innocculous comment that started the conversation and then haven't found time to return to qualify what I said. I should point I qualify my claim to instigating the conversation by the speed this seems to have grown since I posted, I am aware that it's not the first post in the chain.

So to qualify what I said, I am aware that The Silence employ ambassadors such as Madam Kovarian to form alliances but the principle stands: The Doctor is no fool and will need convincing.

The story is written in such a way that even when it is right in front of us we tend to forget that the Doctor is a cladestine individual who is innately suspicious and doesn't trust others easily and he knows how to spot lies. And The Silence deal in lies.

You talk of the killing of Joy in the bathroom, but but we only know her namer because the "Silent" who killed her gave it to Amy. Amy asked why she had to die, the "Silent" said: "Joy". It's clever writing. you think we're being told the woman died for the pleasure of the "Silent but then learn the "Silent" is just interested in Amy learnint the name of said woman. A clue to something, it certain shows the "Silent" to at least have an interest in the identity of its victims. A clue to what exactly?

The so-called "war" is a different matter. It's one of those times where Doctor Who suggests that other species have a different opinion of the Doctor than many of the ones we see. Madame Kovarian talks of the Doctor as a villain and a great enemy who The Silence have tried to kill many times but the effort involved in creating the fixed point tells against this.

Madame Kovarian's explaination seems to be to "official" version of eventsbut after many years of searching the Doctor goes to Dorium and is told something else, something has nothing to do with the Doctor's enemies.

The point is the the Doctor and The Silence are not so different both being highly clandestine by nature. We heard in The Wedding Of River Song how Kovarion boasted on the wisdom of The "Silents" when the eye-drives turned and then pleaded with then when hers turned too. Madame K thought she was privelidged with The "Silents" and she wasn't. The Silence is run by The "Silents"; they share their secrets with nobody and only they know the true purpose of The Silence. Which is why they can't forge an allience with the Doctor.DCT ☎ 13:28, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

"the Doctor is a cladestine individual who is innately suspicious and doesn't trust others easily": He doesn't behave at all as if he's like that. He takes on companions without spending much time getting to know them & he does trust them. Only in rare cases, when a companion has behaved in an untrustworthy manner, does he withdraw that trust.

How does merely learning the name of a victim remove (or even reduce) the callousness & evil of killing that victim -- out of hand & for no very strong reason?

Kovarian believed she was privileged because the Silents had falsely led her to believe she was. She served them loyally, then they simply disposed of her -- painfully. She was a fool, certainly, but they behaved in a thoroughly callous & evil way.

"they share their secrets with nobody and only they know the true purpose of The Silence. Which is why they can't forge an allience with the Doctor": No. It isn't. It may be why they won't attempt an alliance with him. They're not unable to, they choose not to. That's an important difference. --89.240.242.238^{talk to me} 14:28, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

That was probably for dramatic purposes. In this case "won't" and "can't" have the same weight something which isn't something that can be said about all terms under discussion. As fot the Doctor's trust issues part of those objections are due to Moffat's attempt to retcon the story. In the past their was a lot less "soft mystery" companions tended only to go forward with the Doctor "home" stories were virtually non-exist due to the "disobedience" of the TARDIS. These days the story is different and in the Moffat era we also have things like the four envelopes numbered, apparently, according to the Doctor's level of trust and look who's number one. We have Madame Vastra pointing out to Clara how little she knows him.

It's not some original theory I'm propagating it's the way Steven Moffat's presenting him these days. The fact that he takes humans with him at the drop of a hat doesn't mean he specifically trusts his companions it just means he doesn't find them particularly threatening. The ideas aren't mutually exclusive.DCT ☎ 16:01, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oops, I neglected to answer some of those points you made. I was also glossing slightly so what I said will probably not be universally suited to all circumstances. I'll now try to do better.

Why does The "Silent" revealing Joy's name diminish the act of murder. It doesn't, obviously. But The "Silent" in question will have had a reason for doing it and a reason it answered Amy as it did. We just don't know what those reasons are. At one point I did wonder it there was a danger that Joy might ask "the question" and was killed to prevent it but the subsequent discovery that what the "Silent" fear is connected to the question only in a specific circumstance somewhat diminished that idea.

Further on the companion matter which is pertinent to my argument you seem to think I'm implying that the Doctor doesn't at all trust his companions. Not at all but trust is relative not absolute. The Doctor may not take long choosing his companions but nor does he just drag them in off the streets most of them have shared at least one adventure with him and begun to prove their worth in someway before they get invited to journey with him and then as the rare evidence demonstrates it's only an unofficial probationary.

The Doctor always has to take the initiative, remember he is an older, superior man from an older, superior species; and he knows it. There are certain things that Doctor can trust and that is that anyone who comes with him is basically dependent on him for their needs. They don't have any specific designs on him, they aren't connected enough to come up with any, and they aren't likely to ask questions about things they aren't going to under. The Doctor can give his companions initial trust by assuming basic dependable factors that will restrict their actions.

Nevertheless he's still inclined to suspicion and needs to be in charge to protect himself. We saw how unnerved he got when River whispered his name (not too surprising, he didn't know River) and when Wilfred Mott "found" him (slightly more surprising, he semed to really like Wilfred). These sort of things make him wary and suspicious. People trying to use him for their own ends, who want to deal with him on their own terms make him suspicious. His human companions generally can't do this because they are in the weaker position as long as they are travelling with him.

That said it is fair to qualify my above statement that might suggest I see the Doctor as just a one man version of The "Silents", I don't. The Doctor certain can trust and his trust can be earned and many his of his companions spend much of their journey doing just that. This is because the Doctor is an individual being and can can put his secrets in a box and the almost never have to come up, he can live his life without them. This isn't true for the "Silents".

The secrets of The "Silents" explain what they do and define what they are, they can no more ignore them then we can ignore our need to breath oxygen.

And so we've arrive back at the start of the argument I made above. The Silence cannot engage with others honestly without divulging their secrets because that is he nature of their business. The Doctor can because he is more than his. But at the same time the possibility of others trying to use him for his skills or his secrets makes him wary if they approach him on their terms. If they try to deceive him and he spots it he will swiftly sever relations and this is the difficulty that The Silence have in forging a relationship with the Doctor.DCT ☎ 16:08, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

You know, I was told that The Howling was of the lowest importance on this wiki but I learn more from reading everyone's comments and thoughts here (even when there is much disagreement) than I do reading over episode recaps or character profiles. For example, I really thought the Silent said that killing people brought them joy...how did you include it was the woman's name? Badwolff ☎ 19:41, June 12, 2013 (UTC)