Howling:When the Doctor died in Turn Left...

The Howling → When the Doctor died in Turn Left...

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Did he really die too quickly to regenerate? Or did he simply refuse to regenerate?

As we all know, "Turn Left" focused on an alternate history where the Tenth Doctor died under the Thames during the events of "The Runaway Bride". So, I was watching the episode again and when the Doctor's body is put into the ambulance, the UNIT soldier suggests that the Doctor did not regenerate into the Eleventh Doctor because his death "happened too fast" but there has been another theory: that the Doctor chose not to regenerate.

According to this theory, [the Doctor let himself drown because of his depression over losing Rose]. This idea has been portrayed in several fanfics on "Turn Left" such as these: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4543093/1/Drowning-Pains and http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9159383/1/Self-Destruction and this: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=22980

Some would say that the Doctor would NOT just let himself die because he lost her. They argue that he lost several friends and STILL continued on, they also argue that he said goodbye to several companions when they left him and he STILL helped the Earth.

But there are several reasons to believe in the theory that the Doctor chose not to regenerate as opposed to the "it happened too fast" claim.

1. In "Last of the Time Lords", it is implied that regeneration is an option which can be chosen: despite the Doctor's pleas, the Master refused to regenerate after being shot by Lucy Saxon.

2. You gotta admit, the Doctor did seem almost suicidal after losing Rose since he did demand the Daleks to kill him in "Evolution of the Daleks"(even if he was faking it).

3. In the "Runaway Bride", when the Doctor watched as the Racnoss drowned, his eyes were full of darkness and pain.

4. The Doctor even said this: “D'you think I don't want to go jumping into the Thames after Rose?” (The Doctor, “The Feast of the Drowned”).

5. How is it that the underground chamber was flooded too fast for the Doctor to regenerate? In the episode itself, it looked like the Doctor and Donna had plenty of time to escape, so even if she wasn't there to snap him out of his fugue, surely he still would have noticed the water lapping at his ankles? (I must admit, I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Donna saying "Doctor, you can stop now!" was that crucial of a moment... I think they're having to stretch a bit to find a key moment in that scene!) Besides, drowning is a slow death, surely! (As some pointed out, surely falling off a radio telescope is a faster death, but the Doctor had time to regenerate after that one.)

I know this almost certainly didn't happen in the episode but I love the theory that the Doctor chose not to regenerate and that he thought of Rose as he died.

So what do you think? Did the Doctor refuse to regenerate when he died in "Turn Left?" Regardless of whether he tried to regenerate or not, do you think he was thinking of Rose when he drowned? 92.15.130.239

Please sign your posts.

We know in The Impossible Astronaut (even through it was the teselecta) that if he was killed while already in the process of regenerating, it would cancel the regen and that'd be it. Whether he wanted to regenerate or not, he may truly not have had a chance to escape. Because he'd never been at Donna's reception, he probably never picked up the exploding Christmas ornaments, so he may have used a different, possible more destructive method of flooding the Racnoss's chamber with the Thames. Because we only see the aftermath, any such varying details can't be confirmed or denied. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 13:57, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

It's easiest and the most helpful to sign with "~~~~", as it automatically gives username/IP address plus talk page link and timestamp. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 15:34, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

Depending on the specifics, if he was still underwater when he regenerated, it might not have helped. Of course the Thames was drained when Donna and the Doctor climbed out, so we really cannot say that in "Turn Left" there was more water, but where he was when he let it loose, and how he did it could have changed things substantially.Phil Stone ☎ 06:08, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Here's a thought: The Doctor had a flashback of him and Rose dancing earlier in the episode. At the end of Doomsday, some time has clearly passed since he lost Rose. Perhaps he may have actually been intending to kill himself as soon as the opportunity presented itself. If you look at the shot of him during the disco scene, it really looks as if he's in deep thought. Maybe he was actually going to, since the flood was done quite dramatically, and it seemed as if he were genuinely about to commit an act. I think Donna could have definitely saved him from it. "Sometimes I think you need someone to stop you." There could be several meanings to that. Gallifrey102 ☎ 16:18, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen Doomsday in a while. When is the disco scene? Thanks! Shambala108 ☎ 00:25, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think he may have been talking about Donna's reception party (which her family had "without me!?!") in "The Runaway Bride", but I'm not sure. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 01:13, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I haven't seen that one in a while either. Shambala108 ☎ 04:29, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

It was stated on screen that the Doctor drowned too quickly to regenerate...so that's what happened. Also, that entire timeline was removed when Donna fixed it. Either way, the thought of a suicidal 10th Doctor has no merit, IMHO. Whosethebestwho ☎ 05:35, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think it has a little bit of merit, at least later on his timeline. He seemed very suicidal in The End of Time. Nearly driving a ship into the ground, jumping from the sky into a glass roof and hitting the floor. He even seemed quite prepared to "die with [Rassilon]". His acceptance of his inevitable doom seemed to have taken quite a hold with him. Gallifrey102 ☎ 16:06, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

He was not at all suicidal in The End of Time (TV story), quite the opposite. He did not want to die, not at all. The spectre of death was hanging over him the whole time. While he seemed to accept it towards the end, it most certainly does not make him suicidal. he was actually quite relieved to find he had survived the encounter with Rassilon. He wouldn't have if he were suicidal. His last words were "I don't want to go." Not the words of someone who was suicidal. Whosethebestwho ☎ 03:34, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Whosethebestwho. There is no indication that the Doctor wished for his own death. He may have been willing to die to "save the day", but that's a big difference from wishful suicide. Shambala108 ☎ 04:28, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Since the presumption is that suicide is inspired by losing Rose, its worth considering that we dont really know what was going through his mind when he sent her off with the Meta-Crisis Doctor. On the surface it looks like he was more reserved, but the more human Doctor could tell her he loved her (though even that is a private moment, shared only in effect with The Doctor, Donna and the audiance.) The next level down I think he knows she needs someone who can say it, even though he loves her and she him, she needs a more human him. Next level down he not only knows this, but knows "Handy" will say it, so purposely does not say it himself to make her believe "Handy" will make her happier. On the next level down, what he wished at the beginning of the episode is complicated by the creation of "Handy." He has to do something with him, and he probably knows he cannot be his own keeper any more than The Master could tolerate it. On the next level, he might have realized that he as a human could never get over Rose, where as the full Timelord would probably outlive her, and have a dfferent perspective. If the choice was either he or "Handy" would get Rose, "Handy" might suffer more for the loss. Or he might factor in what he told Rose when they met Sarah Jane Smith, that watching her age and die while he went on would be painful. Or ultimately, he might realize that he will suffer more for her loss, but make the sacrifice so that both of them might be as happy as they might. What did he really think? There is no way of being sure, particularly as we have Donna doing some of the explaining.

And none of that takes into account that he already knows that he is going to lose Donna.

If we don't understand what the Doctor was really thinking when he gave up Rose, I don't think its possible to have any confidence in a decision for suicide. We have seen him many times tell captors to kill him. Some recklessness with his own life is a basic part of who he is, and was always part of the explanation of why he fled Galifrey to live a far riskier life among the stars.Phil Stone ☎ 14:34, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, am I late to the party? I think this would have been a brilliant addition of the episode. However, the script does seem to contradict it. Of course, it is possible that UNIT simply assumed that was the cause of death, and he secretly let it happen.

Either way, if it were my choice, I would have this be the reason. That way, Donna saved the Doctor, stopped him, in a way we never really thought of. She not only stopped him from over-slaughtering a species, but she saved him from grief. She did clearly help him get over Rose in The Runaway Bride, so it is very possible that, should she not have been there to support him, he would have continued on being/become suicidal, and let himself die. It is quite poetic.
--SOTO ☎ 10:04, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The UNIT officer thought he drowned too fast to regenerate, but that isn't true. In The Runaway Bride, Donna tells him to stop - without her, he doesn't, and he lets himself die. Why? Because he's just gone through a horrific ordeal with losing Rose to the sealed off parallel world, and had no desire to live. This was displayed repeatedly in series 3. For example: in the Daleks in Manhattan episode, he basically screams at a Dalek to kill him because "it's his turn." This episode added an entirely new depth to that Christmas special and the Doctor's character and state of mind at that point in the show. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.15.141.139 (talk).

Actually, 92, it did happen. Since we did not see him die on screen, we need to by what was said afterwards. It was said he died to fast to regenerate and that is what happened. Anything else is nothing more than pure speculation. Whosethebestwho ☎ 02:53, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

But "pure speculation" is the whole point of this discussion topic, isn't it? —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 03:06, July 13, 2013 (UTC)

Who deleted my commments??? Whosethebestwho ☎ 03:57, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

I've restored the comments that were deleted.

@92, if you removed the comments from User:Whosethebestwho and User:BioniclesaurKing4t2 by accident, please be careful in the future. If you removed them intentionally, then be warned that is considered vandalism and is a blockable offense. Shambala108 ☎ 04:37, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

By the way, it's a good thing that was just an alternative version of the Doctor. Though I've always wondered -- how did he even know about the Racnoss without Donna appearing in his TARDIS? (Since in that timeline, he never met her) Was there another bride used in the Racnoss' plot? Did she (unlike Donna) also drown with the Doctor? Except her body was never found, because it may have been swept away by the current, down into the hole? – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.15.141.139 (talk).

I suppose there must have been. If Donna didn't land the job at H.C. Clements, it would have just gone to someone else and Lance would have still faked love. The swine. Gallifrey102 ☎

92, if you want to keep editing here, you must sign your posts and stop re-editing old posts after they've been answered. Shambala108 ☎ 14:42, July 26, 2013 (UTC)

I think The Snowmen (TV story) is proof that the Doctor whould not consider suicide. When he lost Amy and Rory, who were family to him, he retired...he didn't find a way to commit suicde or entertain the notion. He simply retired. Whosethebestwho ☎ 12:10, July 29, 2013 (UTC)

And that would be a non-sequitar. You can't ague the mindset of the Tenth at a particular position by referencing the mindset of the elventh at a different position several hundred years later. A lot has happened since then.

Do I think the tenth was suicidal? I have only just started watching the episode for the first time since they were originally transmitted so can't comment bsolutely but at the moment I think we need stronger evidence generally to claim that sort of thing really. It's pretty massive.

However the tenth Doctor from the moment we met him, questioning his identity to the moment he regenerated with,- as you mention, "I don't want to go." he seemed more unique than any other incarnation so far. He seems to see himself, Doctor 10, as an individual, independent from either the incarnations that preceded him or those that will follow him. He sees his regeneration as actually death to him else why else make the comment. But even so why would he need to share that thought with the audience? It seems pretty obvious if 10 sees himself that way, it echoes the words of Cassandra in New Earth, of course, but it may also be intentionally given as the answer to a question that his internal dialogue has been debating for sometime. So the preposition that the tenth had a suicidal aspect in his character, while likely is not, however, completely unfounded.DCT ☎ 17:06, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the ones above. The UNIT officer thought he drowned too fast to regenerate, but that isn't true. In The Runaway Bride, Donna tells him to stop - without her, he doesn't, and he lets himself die. Why? Because he's just gone through a horrific ordeal with losing Rose to the sealed off parallel world, and had no desire to live. This was displayed repeatedly in series 3. For example: in the Daleks in Manhattan episode, he basically screams at a Dalek to kill him because "it's his turn." This episode added an entirely new depth to that Christmas special and the Doctor's character and state of mind at that point in the show.

This is really sad, the thought that he just let it happen: http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=23118– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.15.135.37 (talk).

Please sign your posts with four tildes as directed above. Shambala108 ☎ 18:34, January 28, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the Doctor wanted to die. I just think he didn't not want to die, if you know what I mean. I don't think his sadness was caused solely by the loss of Rose, but also a lot by what her loss represented to him. The loss of a companion alone wouldn't be something he would actively kill himself over, as can be seen by the fact he's still alive following the deaths of both Adric and (the supposed death of) Peri, along with others who don't immediately spring to mind. Before meeting Rose, the Doctor was in a state of grief, guilt and self-loathing following the end of the time war, and it was Rose who helped him move on from that. Losing Rose could have easily thrown him back into the stream of those emotions, as if losing his grip on the rock anchoring him in the turbulent river of his guilt and grief. Also, Rose was the first companion the Doctor allowed himself to romantically love, probably the first person since his wife back on Gallifrey; Susan's grandmother. I can't help but think that because of the lack of any other family member of the Doctor being shown apart from Susan that something terrible must have happened to the rest of the Doctor's family (maybe one of the factors leading to him running away?). Is it not plausible that Rose's loss would dredge back up the memories of losing his wife and the rest of his family? The combined grief from losing Rose, the memories of what he had (supposedly) done in the time war, and the memories of what had happened to his family might have just been too much when added together. And while I don't think the Doctor actively tried to kill himself, I don't think he would have put much effort into escaping his demise either because of this combined grief and guilt over his continued existence after the death of so many, accepting the inevitable and choosing not to regenerate when the time came because drowning once would surely be a lot less painful than drowning, regenerating, drowning in the new body, regenerating again, and drowning one final time before his regeneration cycle was complete, which, when you think about it, is what would have happened if the Doctor got trapped underwater. • Imamadmad  Contact me 10:36, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

I really like this theory. It's something I've never thought about before but it makes perfect sense. 87.102.91.126^{talk to me} 18:58, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

This actually makes a lot of sense! Wario64 ☎ 07:33, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. It does.

Imamadmad: On top of the factors you've cited, the Doctor's knowledge that he'd not just killed a large number of individuals but had wiped out an entire species -- again -- wouldn't have improved his state of mind. The Racnoss were, after all, intelligent & technologically fairly advanced, although also extremely dangerous.

Whosethebestwho: "It was stated on screen that the Doctor drowned too quickly to regenerate...so that's what happened." It was stated as an assumption made by a UNIT soldier who didn't himself witness it. What he said was, "The Doctor is dead. Must have happened too fast for him to regenerate." That "Must have" makes it clear that it's the character's opinion, not a known fact. It could be a mistaken opinion. --89.243.201.190^{talk to me} 20:37, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think that this debate is useless. It was a long time ago and while I think this would have been a brilliant addition of the episode, it was never thought up and the script does seem to contradict it. Of course, it is possible that UNIT simply assumed that was the cause of death, and he secretly let it happen.