Talk:Flesh and Stone (TV story)/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

Talk:Flesh and Stone (TV story)/Archive 1 (edit)

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 Plus, you would have to erase Dalek Caan's intrusion into the Time War essenially because Medusa Cascade was a result of his intrusion succeeding, so the Daleks came back and did Medusa Cascade. Its also possible that the crack on Amy's wall only affected her as we haven't talked to another Present Day Human since Victory of the Daleks, should be interesting to see what Rory says.... [[User:Ooiue|Ooiue]] 19:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
+== Don't the Angels deadlock each other? ==
+I'm getting a bit confused how so many Angels can coexist in such narrow spaces without completely deadlocking each other, just like the four original Angels did. They are clearly supposed to be able to see perfectly in the dark, and they all have their eyes wide open. How can they be as mobile as they are? (Also, how can they jump up to the ship after the grav globe had been depleted?) [[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 20:08, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
+:
+The Doctor explained that the Angels self defence mechanism is instinctive (which is why they froze even when Amy had her eyes closed). Either they were fighting against instinct, or they were directly avoiding looking at each other, we're not entirely how the Angel's eyesight works, so for all we know they're capable of focussing their gaze to the point where they can only see their intended target and nothing around them. The Weeping Angels the Doctor trapped in Blink may have eventually been able to fight off the affects of the defence mechanisms to avert the and move, but by then the Doctor probably had UNIT or someone round them up and destroy them. [[User:Adam 148|Adam 148]] 20:17, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
+:
+::
+Hmmm... maybe that's how the plot is explained, but it's pretty lame. The Doctor definitely said earlier that the Angels are "quantum locked" and that "they have no choice". That always made it sound like a physical reaction to being observed (measurement problem anyone? ;-) ), not like a biological reaction that is in some sense deliberate. Hm, well, this whole episode was kind of laming out, everything was very deus-ex, and the final solution didn't even have anything to do with the Doctor -- the Angels were in fact just thick enough to do themselves in. [[User:Hack59|Hack59]] 23:56, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
+::
+The Doctor says in Blink that they have NO choice. That their quantum lock is a "fact of their biology". While they are certainly Moffat's monsters, and he has every right to add to canon, this change made them logically inconsistent. He should know better as a storyteller that plot holes like that interrupt the suspension of disbelief. I agree that this was a very deus-ex sort of solution, and that it seemed like Moffat was just getting his kicks by trying gimmicks to scare the audience. It completely wrecked the wonderful scariness of the Angels to say, "they can't move if you look at them, and it's so much a fact of their biology that EVEN THE AUDIENCE LOOKING AT THEM freezes them into rock", and then to say, "Nope, we lied, they move if the characters close their eyes and their instincts don't kick in. Watch them move, aren't they scaaaaary!" I was NOT amused. CitizenX
+There is one detail that no one else has thought of - not really a foolproof explanation, but it may help. Did anyone notice the scene in the Byzantium in which we were given a view of the Angels from the other side of the Crack? That would seem to imply that someone is watching them through it. That would make sense, I think. With the Angels' amazing speed, don't you think they'd have been able to get away from the Crack a lot faster than that? I think (and this is just a theory) that something had its eye on them from within the crack, but not all the time, which explains why they were able to move at times. The thing about the audience being able to freeze them isn't actually set in stone (pardon the pun). Also, even if the quantum lock is a fact of their biology, it would probably make them instinctively freeze whenever they saw someone coming, because they knew they would be frozen anyway. And, if all their attentions were focused elsewhere, they might just stay frozen without noticing that the person's eyes were closed. I think they were moving slowly because they were being cautious. Think about it. There's a reality-destroying crack on their heels; they're going to be TERRIFIED of being frozen, so they don't want to give Amy a chance to do it. If they make any noise, she might turn around and look, and they'll have lost more precious time. [[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 11:04, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
+One other thing - when the Doctor talked about the Angels' "instincts" kicking in, he might not have been talking about the quantum lock. In fact, he almost certainly wasn't, as this would contradict "The Time of Angels", in which he said the Angels ''can't'' move if you're looking at them. It makes more sense to assume that he was talking about their instincts to avoid getting stuck, not to consciously freeze. While they weren't paying attention to Amy, thus being fooled into thinking she could see them, they avoided her so they wouldn't provoke her to stare at them. That way they could still focus on escaping once she had left. If they had caused her to get them into a staring contest, she wouldn't have left, and the Crack would have gotten them. Once they began to suspect that she ''couldn't'' see them, they moved slowly toward her for fear that she would open her eyes and freeze them. Yes, I know, this doesn't fully explain why they were frozen in the first place as she walked by. My theory is that the Crack itself - or something inside it - was looking at them until the moment when they began to move on screen. The scene in which they have the Doctor by his coat would seem to support this. He's not looking at ''any'' of them, since he's facing the Crack. The Crack is "looking" at all the Angels, and they're frozen. Yet there are times in the flight deck scene when they can move, therefore the Crack must not be looking at them constantly.<br />
+Aside from all these attempts at explanation, I do agree that there are some weaknesses in Flesh and Stone. Some things just weren't adequately explained. I blame this on the many complex concepts the episode was dealing with, and the fact that the story was forced into a 42-minute running time. In other words, it's not entirely Steven Moffat's fault. [[User:Bluebox444|Bluebox444]] 13:17, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
+Isn't it possible that simply through sheer number, unless all of them got deadlocked at once, that another angel could simply move another angel and cancel out the deadlock? That's over-complicated, but the only major moments we see possible perma-deadlock are the stealing of the Doctor's jacket and Amy, with her eyes closed. Even then, there's always an angel at the back of the pack, who, as soon as we stop looking, is no longer deadlocked. The only reason the angels in Blink were perma-deadlocked is beacause they are all equally deadlocked. So basically, if you have angels coming for you in formation, look at the one at the back.[[Special:Contributions/219.90.150.136|219.90.150.136]] 15:47, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
+Isn't it possible since the angels evolved the quantum-lock that they could evolve further to the next stage in quantum-lock where they could control it? I mean look at the time distance in between Blink and Flesh and Stone. Thats like 3000 years isn't it? I think the angels would be able to perfect the quantum-lock (or at the very least control it)? If they really did have about 3000 years to look at each other one would eventually figure out a way to get around it, we see it in nature every day its simply natural selection, the angel that figures out a way to move ''while still Quantum-locked would be the one to live.[[User:Berfomet|Berfomet]] 03:34, May 11, 2010 (UTC)''
+I agree with Bluebox444's solution. The angels have just sort of developed an instinct to freeze whenever they see something move or something approaching. Amy wasn't looking at them when she tripped, which means they could technically move, but still chose to (instinctively) not to since they knew Amy was there and could freeze them any second. Perhaps being ''forced'' to freeze is somehow "painful" for them and they can simply "elect" to freeze. Speculation, but fun to think about. By the way, none of the events or scenes in this episode stops the Angels from being kick-ass. [[User:Bttsstewart|Bttsstewart]] 12:58, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
+One possible explanation is that the Angels are presumably used to the fact that they'd lock each other, and have adapted techniques to work around it. Presuming a group of Angels were all facing the same way, the one in the back wouldn't be locked, and could close/cover its eyes, freeing ones in front of it, who could then do the same to allow those in front of them to move. Sure, it'd be tedious, but we know they've been around forever, so it's not impossible that they've got some sort of system like that perfected. Also, minor side note, I saw your edit there, Berfomet, and you were right the first time - this story takes place roughly 3000 years after Blink, not 12000 (51st century = the 5000's) [[User:TweedJacket|TweedJacket]] 21:59, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
+Thank you for correcting my time but yeah I would imagine that in 3000 years any species could evolve a way to undo something it had already evolved (there was even a fish that de-evolved after hundreds of years on the sea floor) and didn't the doctor say the angels were weak? after years without power? than couldn't they not have enough power to trigger the Quantum-Lock?[[User:Berfomet|Berfomet]] 22:18, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
+==Amy says "Explain."==
+I may be reading too far into things, but upon re-watching this episode I noticed Amy says "Explain." a number of times, as it's own one-word command (as in, as its own sentence, not just in a sentence, since that'd hardly be noteworthy). I don't know if that's at all significant or if it's just how Amy talks, but sounds like an odd thing to say/way to say it. Dare I say, it almost sounds like a Dalek way to phrase it. Anyone else notice this? [[User:TweedJacket|TweedJacket]] 09:00, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
+* I think the Doctor's later statement in ''[[The Big Bang]]'' that Rory is now "Mr. Pond" pretty much sums it up. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.64.9|68.146.64.9]] 18:02, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
+==Moffat's clever Cracks!?==
+Okay, the "Cracks" in time... I think they actually successfully explain EVERY SINGLE CONTINUITY ERROR EVER. I mean, now everything can just be put down to the cracks. Even those little production errors; a character's hair being in different positions between shots? A simple "blip" in time caused by the Cracks... I mean, these could technically explain every single production error that has ever existed in the Whoniverse. It is now officially IMPOSSIBLE for Doctor Who to have any continuity error, isn't it? Thoughts? [[User:Bttsstewart|Bttsstewart]] 13:03, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
+Haha I love this comment - thanks for making me smile and i totally agree!!!!! lottie01 23:30, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
+== Possible Production Error? ==
+So I've noticed something after watching ''The Time of Angels'' and ''Flesh and Stone'' back to back a few times. Has anyone else noticed that the distance between the top level of the maze and the bottom of the Byzantium changes drastically between the end of ''The Time of Angels'' (when the group first reaches that point) and the beginning of ''Flesh and Stone'' (when the camera zooms out and shows the group is actually upside-down)? By my estimate, the first distance is roughly 7-8 Amy Ponds (which comes out to let's say 40-45 feet, which makes sense because River estimates it at a little over 30) while the second distance is at least 10-15 Amys (a distance of 60-80 feet or so). Would anyone else agree that this counts as a production error? [[User:KalebPSpector|KalebPSpector]] 01:43, September 2, 2011 (UTC)