Talk:Coal Hill defenders

Rename

Well, I actually must agree with the suggestion of a rename. I think the best option would be Coal Hill gang, mirroring Bannerman Road gang. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 20:04, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

I must say I did find the title odd when I first read it, too. I suggest the "Coal Hill defenders", like have already been written on the article itself. --DCLM ☎ 20:38, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Ooh, both good suggestions. The first is following a precedent, but at the same time there's been so many groups of Coal Hill students prominent in the DWU. In fact, there's a literal Coal Hill gang in The Eight Doctors. "Coal Hill defenders" does describe them well. Are there any nouns used in the episodes themselves to describe them?
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 20:59, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

At the very least, we could call them Miss Quill's team for now, since the Doctor says Look at you! What an amazing team! to Quill. I don't think a propper word was used to describe them as of now. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 21:05, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Tanya raised the question whether they were now all mates, then. "Coal Hill mates" anyone? --DCLM ☎ 21:19, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought of Quill's team, and it sort of is hers—I can't remember the exact wording, but Ram says something in episode 2 about "Miss Quill's [something]" in the scene outside Coal Hill with Tanya—but at the same time, Miss Quill is a servant to Charlie, so she's not exactly the leader. Though she is an authority figure, as a teacher, to the others.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 21:28, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

If it would be Quill's team then we would have to rename "Bannerman Road gang" to "Sarah Jane Smith's team". --DCLM ☎ 21:37, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we need exact symmetry. "Bannerman Road gang" is just fine.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 22:36, October 25, 2016 (UTC)

I've at least temporarily renamed the page to Coal Hill defenders, as that's the best we've got so far. If you take any issue with that name, or have a better suggestion, absolutely feel free to add a {{rename}} tag and talk about it here.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 05:28, October 28, 2016 (UTC)

Members

Tell me again why Matteusz isn't a member... --DCLM ☎ 20:01, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that six stories in he hasn't really done anything in regards to stopping aliens, there's a scene in What She Does Next Will Astound You (novel) which frequently refers to the group as being composed of four students and Miss Quill. In fact, in the scene April suggests that they call themselves "the Four Lions". CoT ? 20:10, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

Wait, so there is an in-universe name for the group? Even if it's not used a lot, perhaps it would be better than one based upon conjecture? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 20:17, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

It's rejected by everyone else. CoT ? 20:21, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

But he is present when the Doctor form the group and is clearly referred to too when the Doctor assign the group as the defenders in "For Tonight". In "The Coach" they ask where Matteusz is, and Charlie gives a reason for why he's not present, and in "Nightvisiting" he is out trying to help fight the Lan Kin. --DCLM ☎ 20:34, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

The novel was not written by Ness himself, obviously the four students are the core group, and they are the main cast, but April didn't mention Miss Quill being part of the group either, and she is considered to be part of it on our page. If we take just the episodes, Matteusz is as much part of the group as the other four. He might not be part of the core group of four friends, but he is still one of the people referred to by the Doctor when he said "you will help these amazing humans". JagoAndLitefoot ☎ 21:15, October 30, 2016 (UTC)

Brave-ish Heart, written by Ness, (not that it matters, considering we've long since seen novels as equally valid to episodes) has Varun ask Tanya if "four children are supposed to fight" the ongoing alien threats. This sounds to me like Matteusz isn't counted among them. -- Tybort (talk page) 02:28, November 16, 2016 (UTC)

However, file 091072 in Co-Owner of a Lonely Heart says that Matteusz is believed to have been entrusted by the Doctor to defend Coal Hill (among the other four students and Quill), so I dunno where to take this. -- Tybort (talk page) 06:42, November 16, 2016 (UTC)

It seems the only thing to do is give a short paragraph describing the conflicting evidence (in-universe, of course), and then probably not list him in the infobox just in case, barring new, compelling evidence.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 07:11, November 16, 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever get a propper information on who's on the team and who's not. If we were to say who is on the team only be Varun's question, we would also conclude that Miss Quill is not a member, since she's not one of the four children. I agree that the best solution is to leave Matteusz out of the infobox, but keep him on the bullet list. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 13:18, November 16, 2016 (UTC)

The bulleted list is redundant, not with the infobox but with the text itself. Especially as it's a bit fuzzy who really belongs here, I think it's best just to cover it in the main text of the article, again citing specifically where a character is stated to be part of not part of the group.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 13:23, November 16, 2016 (UTC)

Well, I at least find it to be a bit useful way of finding out who's part of the team, but not necessarily a notable member of it. It isn't clear if he is a member of the team, but it also isn't clear that he isn't, so I would say we keep it until we can be sure whether he is or not a member. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 13:31, November 16, 2016 (UTC)