Talk:First Monk

Renaming the article

We should consider moving this page to either First Monk or Monk I.

The incarnation in question is explicitly stated to be the first incarnation by virtue of PROSE: The Mutation of Time. The only material which could be construed as contradictory is the idea that "the Monk" seen in his two televised appearances were the sixth incarnation of the Master. That being said, this would still be the first incarnation to go by the title. Since we don't call Christopher Eccleston's Doctor "the Tenth Doctor" because his predecessor didn't go by "the Doctor", we can still easily call this incarnation "the First Monk". That's ignoring the fact that the claim that the Monk was an incarnation of the Master was from an in-universe source (which was in-universe wiped of all information regarding the Master and can very easily be construed as unreliable.) Using "The Monk (The Time Meddler)" rather than "First Monk" or "Monk I" is rather silly when we are explicitly told this is the First Monk.

Personally, "First Monk" follows the precedent we currently have set (where Time Lords with titles use spelled out numbering and those that go by their true name use Roman numerals) and generally reads better, but I figured presenting both options wouldn't be a bad idea.NoNotTheMemes ☎ 15:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. An account stating he’s the first incarnation paired with the fact that he’s very clearly the first “monk” even if he isn’t the first Mortimus is more than good enough for me. I think I’d lean more towards “First Monk” than “Monk I” to match the Doctors. SarahJaneFan ☎ 18:45, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I'll voice my support, preferably for Monk I, seeing as I already object to "First" being used on characters like the Doctor. The only possible issue I could see is that another story might one day and say that this guy isn't the first, but until then, this page should be housed at Monk I or somethin'.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:57, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

"Monk I" is terrible — the clear standard is that "First", "Second", etc. is used for Time Lords with a "the" title (like the Rani), while "I", "II", etc. is used for Time Lords with a proper name (like Romana). Also, as your proposal not to use "First Doctor" and "Second Doctor" has been officially rejected, using it as some kind of pseudo-precedent would seem to go against the spirit of T:POINT and/or T:BOUND, albeit not falling directly into the domain of either.

I remain agnostic as to the wisdom of the move; it would be within policy, but I am not sure it is the best or the clearest option. However: if it is done, and it may yet be done, it will be to First Monk, certainly not to Monk I. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 04:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Scrooge about preferring "First Monk". "Monk I" just reminds me of Guard 1 and pages of the like. LauraBatham ☎ 05:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I support this move, preferably to First Monk. Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500) ☎ 05:40, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah @Scrooge MacDuck, the reason I mentioned my objections to "first" was honestly just becuase I prefer not naming characters with "first", "second", whatever - not because of some ill-concieved notion of "pseudo-precedent", you guys made it abundantly and extraordinarily clear that the Doctor's rename would not happen. However, seeing as "First Rani" exists, I wouldn't mind "First Monk" based on the precedent of that character.

Epsilon📯 📂

12:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Alright, First Monk it is. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 13:01, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The only problem is...he was never actually called "The Monk", the way the Doctor is called "The Doctor". I understand it's used for convenience, but it's clear he disguised himself using the monastery. Furthermore, and this has been stated elsewhere(though I think it was deleted), using this wiki's rules, there is NOT sufficient evidence to merge "Mortimus". If Magnus from Flashback is deemed a separate character, if the War King is deemed a separate character etc. then there is not enough in-universe evidence to force these separate characters together.

Lastly, just watch The Time Meddler and The Daleks' Master Plan, and read the novelisations of those stories...just by themselves. Ignore everything else you "know". Just going by those stories, and ignoring any continuity that would only be added years later... it is abundantly clear that Butterworth's character is fully homo sapiens. ALL the problems came with trying to force a square peg into a round hole. The simplest explanation made him be "the First onscreen Master", something that many people today can't or won't accept. Then we got "The Time Meddler", "Mortimus I", "Mortimus II", "The Monk", "The Meddling Monk", and nearly "Roger". No two of which share compatible continuity with each other OR with Butterworth's onscreen character, even with the retcon that he was a Time Lord all along. Again if this wiki gives individual articles to Magnus, War King etc. then this wiki is breaking its OWN rules to force these different characters together. All there is to link them is authorial intent, but the same is true of Professor Stream.

Again, this is a MAN. The Time Meddler(especially the novelisation) makes it vlear that he and the Doctor know each other from before. Yet..No Future makes it 100% clear that Mortimus and the Doctor did NOT know each other on Gallifrey, and first met off-world. Likewise the entire VNA cycle centres around Mortimus having been trapped on an ice planet...which never happened to Butterworth.

Then there's the fact that it is established in The Book of Kells that the Doctor and the Garden Monk never knew each other on Gallifret, and they haven't seen each other since the Doctor was Hartnell!

The Rufus Hound Meddling Monk likewise never knew the Doctor in Gallifrey.

If authorial intent wasn't enough for this wiki to say that the Magnus from Flashback and the Magnus from Divided Loyalties are the same person...then authorial intent can't be invoked here. From a purely in-universe narrative point, it's not just different incarnations of "the Monk"...it's different characters. The Mortimus of No Future never knew the Doctor on Gallifrey. He left Gallifrey after the Doctor. They first met off-planet. The Mortimus of Divided Loyalties was close friends with the Doctor. He left Gallifrey before the Doctor. Apart from authorial intent, and sharing a name, there is NOTHING to make this wiki merge them. And we know Big Finish intent. But, using purely in-universe narrative...Butterworth, Garden and Hound HAVE TO BE three entirely separate characters.

Timeline is wrong

Take note of the fact that in 4-Dimensional Vistas, the Time Meddler is dressed warmly, and is accompanied by Ice Warriors. Implying he's come from an icy planet. Further, his TARDIS is (wrongly) in the form of a police box. As this clearly and unambiguously comes AFTER The Daleks' Master Plan for him, not before. And the ending for the Time Medfler in 4DV would lead to regeneration...

Again, people are trying to force everything to fit ONE narrative, in this case Cornell's version.

There is NOTHING in The Time Meddler, The Daleks' Master Plan or 4-Dimensional Vistas to make anyone think "Mortimus", and while we know authorial intent, there is nothing to directly link the Mortimus of Ni Future to any of those stories. In fact, there is a lot of biographical information that makes them mutually exclusive.

Further, it is explicitly stated in The Book of Kells that Graeme Garden's Monk and the Doctor haven't encountered each other since the Doctor was Hartnell. So Garden's Monk can't be Mortimus, or The Time Meddler, or the Rufus Hound Meddling Monk.

And, read the "Where are they now?" section at the end of Divided Loyalties very carefully. The Mortimus section. Do you see what Mortimus was hoping to achieve in 1066? Yes, the exact oppisitevof what Butterworth was doing! In fact, ALL his exploits were different to Butterworth. So, while Butterworth was in Northumbria, trying to prevent the Norman Invasion, Mortimus was on the South Coast making sure the Norman Invasion succeeded! While the other Mortimus was supposedly trapped on an ice planet. And Rufus Hound's Meddling Monk was playing dress-up.

But, 4-Dimensional Vistas clearly follows The Daleks' Master Plan, and the Time Meddler is getting bolder, more power-hungry, more...

And, there is nothing in any Butterworth story to suggest he was ever called "Mortimus".