Talk:Dust Devil (audio story)

Concerns on coverage

Need to preface this by stating that I haven't listened to Dust Devil or any of the other stories, but why are links being created to pages such as Fourth Doctor (Dust Devil)?

Surely the new timeline is a result of a point of divergence during Genesis of the Daleks, not an entirely new universe? So shouldn't the characters such as the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane be treated as the same as their "regular" counterparts up until the timeline split?

Epsilon📯 📂

00:29, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Due to the element of time travel we cannot say with complete certainty that these characters had the exact timeline as the originals prior to the divergence. Any of their new adventures following the split could theoretically interfere with their individual past. Hence why it is a good idea to cover them on separate pages. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 00:42, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The Unbound stories take place in alternate universes, rather than alternate timelines. If someone had gone back in time and convinced the Fourth Doctor to change his decision, that would be an alternate timeline. That didn't happen here. The Doctor simply chose a different path than the one our Doctor did, which means a parallel universe. DarkXaven ☎ 00:44, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@DrWHOCorrieFan - that is a valid point, but also speculative, and probably won't be entirely useful.

@DarkXaven - while the other Unbound stories do indeed take place in alternates, it is not impossible for a new story to break that mould. And even though there was seemingly no catalyst for the divergence, it still appears to be a divergence, so there is merit in saying that they're the same up until the divergence.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:14, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, the boxset summary does actually state:

"Times have changed. A choice was made and the universe diverged. And now all of history is at war."Genesis

(Emphasis mine)

Without listening to the story, it does appear from the evidence that there is a divergence point, not a wholly new universe.

Epsilon📯 📂

01:19, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

If two universes diverge doesn't that create another universe? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 08:41, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Doctor Who Unbound has been brought back due to the popularity of Marvel's "What if?" and it follows the exact same setup - characters making different choices which create a wholly new universe within a large multiverse. These separate universes can occasionally interact. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 08:43, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I've listened to the story. It's pretty clear the Warrior's universe is not actually a parallel universe but an alternate timeline that diverges. Dust Devil is about the N-Space Sixth Doctor suffering from changes in the timeline catching up with him. I mean, maybe it's not the N-Space Doctor but one identical to him in every way shown… In either case it's a timeline of some sort and not an entirely separate universe. (Maybe The Warrior's timeline is a better name?) I'll get back to this when I've listened to the other two stories in hopes they have more explanation.

Regardless of that, the Fourth Doctor, Sarah Jane Smith and Harry Sullivan all face different fates after the timeline split occurs. I don't know if that really means they should get their own pages; it might be better for alternate timelines on their main pages. Again, I'll come back when I've listened to the other stories. Chubby Potato ☎ 08:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

The Tenth Doctor stated in 'Rise of the Cybermen' that every choice we make creates a parallel universe. So, why would a major choice here only create an "alternate timeline" rather than its own parallel universe? Wasn't Pete's World speculated to have been formed, albeit in a non-valid source, when the timeline diverged following Queen Victoria's death? If this was ever confirmed would you really want all of the parallel counterparts to be placed on single pages? There is a reason we separate Yvonne Hartman and Yvonne Hartman (Pete's World), just like there is a reason that these pages should be separate. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 09:07, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I have to point out that "divergence" is also the word used to describe the moment when two universes split off into different paths. It's like a fork in the road. Prior to the fork, there is only one road. But at the fork, the road splits into two roads, going different directions. The same is true with the universe, splitting into many universes, creating what we know as the multiverse. An alternate timeline would be someone going to the road during its construction and changing the plans for its construction, so it goes in a different direction than before. For an alternate timeline to exist, there has to be a catalyst that causes history to go down a different path than before. They don't occur naturally. So when they do occur, the original timeline ceases to exist. Alternate universes, however, do occur naturally, whenever someone makes a choice. The moment they make that choice, a universe featuring the other choice immediately pops into existence in its own separate dimension, existing alongside the other universe.

The big thing that makes this whole question of alternate timeline vs. alternate universe so complicated, is that the choice at the center of this, the Fourth Doctor's decision with the wires, is linked very heavily to the Time War, the most complicated event in Doctor Who history, with paradoxes piled on top of paradoxes. Prior to the divergence, the Time War would be the one we know, with it occurring during the Eighth Doctor's lifetime. The Time Lords, who sent the Fourth Doctor to Skaro, were from a reality where the Time War occurred then.

So, is this an alternate timeline, or an alternate universe? My problem with alternate timeline is the very fact that there was no outside interference that caused the Fourth Doctor to choose differently. If it is the same universe as the one we know, then it's impossible for the Fourth Doctor to choose differently, because we know he chose not to destroy the Daleks. He can't just magically choose otherwise, unless there's an outside influence. We currently have no evidence of any such influence. But, there's still the existence of the Sixth Doctor and Peri to consider. This whole mess is so complicated, it's like we're dealing with an alternate timeline of an alternate universe. DarkXaven ☎ 11:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

To address your points @DrWHOCorrieFan, I need to say two things:

• Firstly, we are not Marvel. How Marvel handles their What If series is antithetical to how Big Finish handles their Unbound series, even if the former was the inspiration for the latter, and that there exist basic commonalities between the two. So it doesn't really matter that What If stories are set in their own "Earth-XYZ" universe, Doctor Who always does its own thing.
• Secondly, you forget that Doctor Who and consistency are not "friends". They don't go hand in hand. Doctor Who is not consistent. More often than not, a lot of lore, especially about alternate universes/timelines (as @NoNotTheMemes can testify!) is extraordinarily contradictory between sources. There is no one "true" explanation of how timelines work, and it varies story from story.

And to address your points, @DarkXaven...

• What I said in response to @DrWHOCorrieFan applies here too: Doctor Who does not have consistent rules on how universes work. While normally, there may need to be a catalyst for a split, a divergence, this isn't necessary. We need to examine the evidence in the story, and so far it seems pretty clear to me that this is working as an forking timeline/universe from the original one, even if it has been set up unconventionally.
• Moreover, there could still be a story yet that establishes that was indeed a catalyst for the split. It just hasn't been explained yet.
• Finally, it is worth mentioning that in the real world, universes and timelines are treated as the same theoretical concept. It's only in fiction where there is a difference, and it may be entirely possible that Dust Devil is using the real world understanding on how universes may work.

While there may a lot up in the air, I think that given the evidence we have so far, even if that same evidence doesn't align with previous DWU sources, treats the events of Dust Devil as a divergent timeline.

Epsilon📯 📂

12:38, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

My question to you is, why would you want this information covered on a single page? What are the benefits? DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 12:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)