Talk:Meta-Crisis Doctor/Archive 2

	This page is an archive. Please do not make any edits here. Edit the active conversation only.

Blue suit - Behind the Scenes?

Why is this in the Behind the Scenes section?

The Doctor occasionally wore his blue suit even after the Meta-Crisis Doctor left the TARDIS with it, revealing that the Doctor either replaced it or owned more than one. (TV: Music of the Spheres, Dreamland, The Waters of Mars)

This is an in-universe statement. Unless there's something I'm missing here, this should be in a separate section. SmallerOnTheOutside ☎ 02:56, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Regeneration

so according to " The Mirror," Steven Moffat is counting the meta-crisis tenth doctor as a regeneration. This is kind of important since it puts to bed the long debate over whether or not Meta 10 used up a regeneration. Plus, since the War Doctor exists, that would bring us to 12 regenerations (8 classic + War + 9 + 10 + M10 + 11). Shouldn't it be added to the page somewhere? Source link: [[1]] Kremlin16 ☎ 07:37, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Please see Thread:145998 for how we're dealing with the different incarnation numbers, and please see Tardis:Valid sources for why anything Moffat says offscreen cannot be put on in-universe pages. Thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 14:17, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

So, basically, until meta 10 is confirmed to have counted on screen, and the Doctor mentions he used up all his regenerations on screen, this kind of thing won't be added? I just want to make sure I understand this. Kremlin16 ☎ 21:19, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sort

Should this page be sorted as Doctor, Meta-Crisis Tenth instead of its current name? It doesn't fit in with the rest of the Doctors. guyus24 05:37, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Was wondering how could mention that there was a lesser version of a meta-crisis with The Doctor during his 1st incarnation when his energies were drained and transferred into the Human[oid] Jano, which permanently altered him (in The Savages). Just an oldster's odd observation.174.64.6.27^{talk to me} 07:08, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

Is there in-universe proof that Jano was a meta-crisis? Certainly, the term was not used in The Savages. In addition, there are significant differences: Jano was an existing individual, he was not created as the result of meta-crisis. Also, depending on how close Jano's people were to humans, Jano was not supposed to survive being a meta-crisis. Note that Steven Taylor could successfully breed with the inhabitants of the planet, meaning that biology was reasonably similar. Amorkuz ☎ 15:32, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Tentoo

I know much discussion has been had to reach the name for this incarnation that the wiki uses, but the social media accounts have now called him "Tentoo" – Is this an official acknowledgement and recognition for this name? (Before you protest "it's not in-universe" or to that effect, remember that the same is true of pretty much every variation on The Nth Doctor with only The Eleventh Doctor ever referring to themselves as such iirc.)

First of all, it is not the case that Nth Doctor is not in-universe. Tardis:Doctors provides relevant references for this naming scheme from stories.

Secondly, anonymous "social media accounts" and "official confirmation" are largely antithetical to each other. Notwithstanding, unspecified social media accounts are not a valid source and should be disregarded.

Finally, even if the Doctor, in-universe, uses "time-wimey" to describe Blinovitch Limitation Effect, we are not going to rename it thusly. This is an online encyclopedia of Doctor Who. We are not going to use niche jargons instead of proper English. We are going to be very grown-up and use words like "equidistant" and "meta-crisis". However, if RTD and Ten(nant) himself both start rooting for an alternative name, I will be prepared to return to this question. Amorkuz ☎ 16:08, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

Conjecture

I have not yet been able to listen to The Siege of Big Ben (I'll get it sometime next week) but the Big Finish page refers to this character as the Meta-Crisis Doctor. Does this mean that the title is conjectural no more? --Borisashton ☎ 12:33, June 30, 2018 (UTC)

First of all, a very astute observation. Unfortunately, he is not called that in the story though "meta-crisis" is used to explain his condition (several times). Jackie Tyler calls him "the Doctor" most of the time. Nevertheless, it is indeed the case that a holder and executor of a BBC license calls him "Meta-Crisis Doctor" off-universe. While the description of the {{conjecture}} requiring to use it for articles "whose subjects' names do not actually appear within a valid narrative" still applies, I think it is an important step. Were the name Meta-Crisis Doctor used in the credits, it would have been enough. For now, we just need to wait till the meta-crisis mass becomes critical. Amorkuz ☎ 21:48, July 5, 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record although yet again the evidence isn't in the narrative, this Doctor was referred to as "The Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" in a recently uploaded video to the official Doctor Who YouTube channel. --Borisashton ☎ 18:40, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

The alias used in the new Target Storybook short story (Corin) is only relevant to said story. As stated above, the alias is not used in Big Finish nor on any official site. The author has made clear that it is a different timeline than either of the Big Finish Short Trips.--ibelieveinher ☎ 19:45, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Hi I've left a message on your talk page but please note that your first statement above is incorrect with regard to how we write articles on this wiki. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 23:50, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

The term Meta-Crisis Doctor is the common factor throughout all mediums and to refer to him as Corin in relation to anything but the short story is incorrect. The base neutral "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should therefore be the term/name used when referring to the character in any common dialogue. If we start using one specific name for all characters across any medium then we may as well only call The Doctor, Theta.ibelieveinher ☎ 00:50, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The article has been protected for now due to vandalism by two IP users. Shambala108 ☎ 01:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

First we should establish whether TtotT takes place before or after the Big Finish Short Trips. If it takes place after then "the Doctor" and "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should be the terms used to refer to this individual in reference to the BF stories within the biography section. As his most recent name, "Corin" should be used for all other sections. --Borisashton ☎ 01:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The author has said that it takes place in a separate timeline than Big Finish. In same way that the First Doctor and Susan have conflicting adventures, one is not related to the other and therefor one name cannot be used as standard.- ibelieveinher ☎ 01:28, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence of this intent and a specific example of this First Doctor precedent? --Borisashton ☎ 01:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

In Susan's intro alone, she as 2 separate names listed after "According to some sources". This is the format we should follow for the Meta-Crisis Doctor. He only goes by that name in one spin-off and the two appearances (big finish/target storybook) are unrelated. We know "Doctor Who" doesn't subscribe to continuity, so to try and ascribe continuity to it would be a disservice. He goes by The Doctor from day one in the Big Finish Short Trips but the Target Short Stories have him choosing a new name before leaving Norway. "The Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the only neutral and canonical term/name used across all media. - ibelieveinher ☎ 01:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But the Susan example is an example of conflicting sources. If TTotT takes place after the BF stuff I see no contradiction. There is precedent here with Jack Harkness. For the early life sections of his biography he is referred to as Javic and then later as Jack. His most used and most recent alias is the one used for most of the page. --Borisashton ☎ 01:59, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But with Jack, the usage of his names are consistent across all media. I don't feel this precedent should apply in this situation since the monikers of the Meta-crisis are inconsistent.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The Big Finish Audios and the Target Storybook 'are' conflicting sources. They even specifically diverge in regards to the topic of conversation. And to canonize one over the other would be taking sides and the point of this site is to remain neutral. Meta-Crisis Doctor is how we do so. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:03, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How do they conflict, exactly. Could you provide details? --Borisashton ☎ 02:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Big Finish establishes the fact that the Meta-Crisis Doctor goes by the name, "Doctor" within the first 5 minutes of The Siege of Big Ben. The director of Unit also calls him The Doctor before the end of story as well. They are well into living their lives in Pete's World. In the follow up, Flight Into Hull!, Jackie says flat out that he is "still the Doctor!" In TtotT, it says he picks his new name only days after arriving on Bad Wolf Bay and is then never once referred to as The Doctor. They also have different careers in both; In the audios he and Rose both work for Unit and live in London and in TtotT they are a Doctor and teacher respectively living on the south coast.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I hardly think these are irreconcilable. We can simply stucture the page as: "days after arriving in Pete's World, Rose confronted the Meta-Crisis Doctor about him using the name the Doctor. He then chose the name "Corin" for himself, and became a doctor, while Rose went on being a teacher. (PROSE: The Turning of the Tide) Year laters, "Corin" once again called himself "the Doctor", and worked for UNIT (AUDIO: The Siege of Big Ben, Flight Into Hull!)" etc etc.

I do agree (from the info we gathered) that we need to take care where in the article we refer to him as "Corin" and when we refer to him as "the Doctor". Does anyone disagree with the compromise I proposed above (which would of course be further developed if put on the page)? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:31, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I believe that when speaking about TtotT he should of course be referred to as Corin, but to change any mention elsewhere is too far. The show called him a Meta-Crisis (he himself was adamant that he was The Doctor), and Big Finish has chosen that he goes by The Doctor as well. I think to try and combine the two for the sake of everyone isn't our place. The same way Susan's previous names are mentioned when referring to those stories, the same should be done for The Meta-Crisis. Keep 'The Doctor' with the audios and keep 'Corin' with the Target Story. We could get int othe fact that RTD, David Tennant, and Billie Piper (along with his specific fans, for good reason) all call him Tentoo, but the overall neutral is still Meta-Crisis Doctor.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:37, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The disagreement is with the fact that in a specific tweet from the author, she states that she decided to go a different direction from Big Finish, therefore making her story an AU and not related to Big Finish in anyway. They are two separate verses. Someone else posted a link to the author's tweet in the section below. -Tentooisthedoctor – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Apologies, I thought I responded to this but I was mistaken. It is not up to this site to decide for fans how stories may be connected. The fact is that as of right now they are not. They conflict in more ways than they overlap. Both spin offs (audios/storybook) deal with a a similar timeline but different situations. We can't restructure those stories for simplicity's sake.

I thik the compromise should be that any alternate monikers should be used in the sections which are related to their relevant stories and any neutral mentions should stick with The Meta-Crisis Doctor. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:39, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

There hasn't been any in-show appearance post-Journey's End to confirm any sort of timeline for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, so both the Big Finish and Target stories dealing in hypotheticals. Why force the two stories into one coherent timeline when they weren't intended as such and let fans decide for themselves how they fit together? Why not deal with them as "One account suggests this, another suggests something else" and use the neutral Meta-crisis name otherwise? Thanks for being open to suggestions.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Metacrisis/Tentoo

The Meta-crisis page is completely inaccurate and should not have been changed to meet the views of one writer's headcannon since she did not write the actual show. The head writer Russell T. Davies did not give the metacrisis Doctor a name. He is still THE DOCTOR (meta-crisis or Tentoo) and should remain as such until Russell Himself comes out and says otherwise. Also trying to change the name back to Tentoo is not vandalism. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Also on the author's Twitter page she specifically states that while she enjoyed the Big Finish she chose to go a different direction with her story therefore not staying with the previous storylines but rather her own personal ideas of what would have happened. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

I suggest you read Tardis:In-universe perspective and Tardis:Neutral point of view to understand this wiki's way of handling all stories. And please note that wikis on FANDOM are written by and for fans, we don't have to follow everything the writers say or do. We have our own definition of what is a valid source and what isn't. Shambala108 ☎ 01:46, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Also, could you please provide a link to this so-said tweet? Going through her tweets from today and yesterday, I can find no mention of either Big Finish or the Meta-Crisis Doctor/Corin. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 01:48, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The tweet was in response to a question: "Are you tying into what they did with the Big Finish short stories at all? Or taking a different path?" Her response was as follows: "I LOVED the Big Finish shorts but I have gone a different way. xxxxx" Author's Tweet --Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 02:00, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

With all respect, I think that the anonymous user read too much into her tweet. The most straight-foward (and most likely) interpretation for her answer ("different way") means just that: her story isn't continuity-linked with the two BF Short Trips. But then again, neither are any of the stories in this anthology. That's not the point of the stories. Most likely, she just meant that there wasn't any intention on this story being written to tie-in with these stories - but jumping from this to "this story and the two Short Trips take place in alternate realities" is a very big stretch. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I did a deep search of her twitter today as well and she is very clear that the two stories are not connected. As you said, they're not continuity linked so it would be unwise to try and connect them or any moniker used from one to the other.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How this wiki works

For some reason there are a lot of new users interested in this issue. Therefore, to make things clear, I will explain briefly how this wiki works. I will also cite a few policy pages that I won't bother to spell out here, but they should be read if anyone wants to understand the wiki's position.

For in-universe articles, we are trying to make a narrative/history of the Doctor and assorted people associated with him and spin-offs. We try to write from an outside, neutral perspective, almost as if we are historians chronicling the Doctor's history.

When an author (book, comic, audio, etc) adds something that expands on something from the tv show(s), we treat that as part of the overall narrative. Therefore, even if only one story names a character something, then we write the article with that in mind.

Because this is Doctor Who, and its writers don't care about continuity (or what each other write), there are often contradictions. We take care of those by writing statements like, "According to one account, the Doctor did this. Other accounts suggested that he did this instead."

Policies:

• Tardis:Valid sources
• Tardis:In-universe perspective
• Tardis:Neutral point of view
• Tardis:Canon policy

Please keep in mind that a FANDOM wiki is written by and for fans, and we as a community have decided how we want to run our wiki. When we write in-universe articles, we only use stories as sources. It doesn't matter what any author/actor/director/etc says about something if it doesn't appear in a story. Therefore, "Tentoo" is not a name we will be using on in-universe articles until/unless it appears in a story. As for "Corin", that is still up for discussion here. Shambala108 ☎ 02:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. I guess this is just a formal request then that Meta-Crisis Doctor be used in any broad statements in the article. But since we currently have 3 places in which this character appears and all with different alias's (TV - Journey's End, Audio -The Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull!, and Prose - The Turning of the Tide), I believe the only way to stay neutral is to continue referring to the character as The Meta-Crisis Doctor in the article and specific story paragraphs can use the names from the stories i.e. The Doctor or Corin. For the broad spectrum I think we should stick with Meta-Crisis Doctor. Tentoo is obviously a fan used name and not relevant to the conversation at this time.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:01, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Since the Big Finish and Target stories are conflicting, then it makes the most sense to take both media and discuss them in terms of "According to one account, other accounts suggested this" rather than referring to a linear timeline and use the moniker Meta-Crisis throughout the page. Since the Meta-crisis and Rose have not appeared in the show again to confirm any post Journey's End story line, they are co-existing story lines and should be treated as such if the TARDIS wiki is to remain neutral.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:17, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add my agreement with the two posts above. I believe that if you all are truly "writing this as/for the fans" as you stated above, then to remain neutral he should be referred to solely as the Metacrisis Doctor as the BBC has documented except in the specific section for the Target Book in which the author names him differently for her story. -DoctorxRoseForever 10/25/19

I see no conflict. -- Saxon (✉️) 14:24, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Could you elaborate? --Ibelieveinher ☎ 15:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would also like to add my agreement to the fact that he should mainly be referred to as "Metacrisis Doctor"- not as "Corin"- as obviously the vast majority of the stories he has appeared in refer to him as "Doctor" and not that other name. Yes it should get a mention, but it is not the name that he is known as for most of his appearances in canon. Would you refer to the 12th Doctor as "Doctor Basil Disco" throughout his wiki page because he went by that name for one episode? I don't think so Oimatchstickman ☎ 16:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

But that was a one-off aliases intended to be used briefly, and wasn't even the aliases he used (it was "John Disco"). "Corin", however, is intended to be the name he chose after settling down and, like when the General's real name was given as Kenossium, must be treate as such in narrative, except for events depicted before he chose the name.BananaClownMan ☎ 18:33, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Corin is his chosen name in one post-Journey's End story. He is not using that name in the Big Finish short trips which are also post-Journey's End. There is nothing in either story to suggest the two are connected in a linear timeline and shouldn't be forced together because that is conjecture and no actual evidence for connection exists. He is not choosing that name in all possible timelines post-Journey's End, and since the Meta-Crisis and Rose have not appeared again in the show to confirm a coherent storyline, the Target story shouldn't be taken as the definitive post-Journey's End canon. Neither should Big Finish, to be fair. The two should be handled as separate accounts of events if the site wishes to be neutral. Corin should only be used in reference to the Target story, and Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor should be used as the neutral moniker elsewhere.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 18:44, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. Only one out of four stories supports this new name. In all other stories, he is The Doctor. If it must be used, it should only be used when talking about him in the Target Storybook version of events. It should not in ANY way be used for the Big Finish stories or any of the other information in the page. Not to mention that it's a super confusing name for anyone to find by chance. I was very confused about seeing "Corin" when looking at the page that lists the stories in the anthology when I was just looking to see what the Meta-crisis story was called. Meta-Crisis Doctor should be the rule, "Corin" the exception. Oimatchstickman ☎ 19:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If I'm being honest, based on what I'm reading it sounds like the admins on this site are in no way being as neutral as they claim they are supposed to be. The fans that have posted above have made perfectly logical arguments as to why the name should not be changed to fit the direction of one author's story. Especially when said author publicly stated on social media that she chose to go a different way from the Big Finish audios. That should tell you right away that her story in no way ties into the canon that was already established by those storylines, nor is it connected to them in any way. And based on your rules and regulations you've got posted throughout these comments, should not allow a name change to the character's entire page aside from the one section regarding the Target book. The fact that some of the admins keep arguing against these points (which are in accordance with their rules of how cannon should be stated) makes me a bit suspicious of their reasons behind changing the name. In addition, I ask the moderators, based on your NEUTRAL POLICY of "base your edits on the facts present in valid sources. Ignore your own opinions — and those of fan websites. If you can't prove it with a high quality source, don't write it." Can you cite your sources as to where it states the Target Story is directly tied to Big Finish or any of the other canon material out there that refers to him with this new name instead of The Meta-Crisis Doctor? -bannanasaregood October 25, 2019 – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.107.32.28 (talk).

I don't know how to make clearer to our new users how we write articles on this wiki, so I'm going to offer up a suggestion: while this article is still locked, please browse the wiki, concentrating on character pages, and see how we try to integrate all stories into a single narrative. It takes a while to get the hang of how we integrate tv, audio, comic, prose, and web stories, and we don't always succeed in making a nice flowing narrative, but we are trying.

The next part is mostly addressed to "bannanasaregood" (actually an IP user), but it would benefit all new editors to pay attention. "bannanasaregood", your comments are a violation of Tardis:No personal attacks, specifically your suspicions of admin reasons for our actions. You don't yet understand how this wiki works, so our actions may not make sense to you, but let me be perfectly clear: personal attacks are not tolerated on this wiki. If you are blocked for violating this policy, you can't argue your position on this issue.

To make my own position on this issue clear: I don't care at all about this issue. I don't care what we call this guy, as long as we follow long-established wiki policy. My comments above are intended to educate the half dozen or so new users that have been attracted by this issue, and my locking of the page for a week was to prevent any more violations of Tardis:You are bound by current policy and Tardis:Edit wars are good for absolutely nothing.

I'm going to call for a cooling-off period. There is no need for anyone to keep restating their opinions when we can see them already on the page. After this weekend, hopefully there will be a greater understanding of how this wiki works, and then we can get back to the discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 22:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

One other thing, please refrain from making any arguments on this issue on anyone's user talk page, whether or not they are an admin. We are discussing this article, so the arguments must be on this talk page. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 22:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Ok but there is NO, NONE, NOTHING AT ALL to connect the Target book and the Big Finish stories. Can you please put in plain language why the Wiki will not allow this character's name as given in 3/4 of his appearances to be the main name given here and why ONE single story is being given precedence in this article? Much as I loathe the name 'Corin' I get that it should have some sort of presence here but I do not see any reason why it should be the Meta-Crisis Doctor's main name. Especially as it's just a confusing name to come across in other articles unrelated to the story. Oimatchstickman ☎ 00:45, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If all sources have "equal weight" why does one story overrule three other stories? If they all have equal weight in their own specific timelines/versions of events, why is "Corin" being used as the "true" name when it is never used in other media whatsoever? It does not seem to me based on the articles you have linked that using "Corin" is the correct name to use here for this Doctor. And, again, it's a confusing name to use elsewhere when talking about the character as few are going to know who that name refers to. "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is the neutral name here- especially as events in that story in no way match up with the events in Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull. There are numerous, vividly clear differences that make it obvious that they're not connected (differing jobs for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, different names, there is no mention of the baby, and so on). Even the author conceded months ago that they do not take place within the same narrative. Use "Corin" for things related to that specific story, but elsewhere- and ESPECIALLY when writing about events within the Big Finish version of events- he should be "the Meta-Crisis Doctor." Oimatchstickman ☎ 01:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman