Howling:The Thirteenth Doctor's Death

The Howling → The Thirteenth Doctor's Death

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We know that the Doctor has travelled throughout most of the eras and has often come across events related to his past/future, now if the Thirteenth Doctor does die in an adventure, wouldn't he leave clues to prevent it that his past would come across? Does it suggests that if the Doctor has to die, then either the Thirteenth Doctor will die in a sudden death or the Thirteenth Doctor will be mentally/physically impaired when he dies or that the Thirteenth Doctor will die in the middle of nowhere where no one could find him? Is there any way for the writers to work around this limit to the Thirteenth Doctor's ultimate death if he does die? --222.166.181.174 15:42, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor's death features in Alien Bodies, it's implied in The Five Doctors the Time Lords can give a whole new life cycle to another Time Lord. In one of the New Adventures it's stated the 13 regeneration limit is a psychological one rather than a physical limit. --Tangerineduel 15:58, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah...thanks Tangerineduel, I never knew that "the Thirteenth Doctor thing is just a psychological problem", but I guess this is more of a restriction for any ultimate death for the Doctor if he does die...it just makes no sense for him to have slow death or die in a resourceful situation unless he willingly does so. I mean there is always the possibility that the Thirteenth Doctor will be weary of his own life because of all the damages he directly/indirectly did to others and the people/civilizations that the Thirteenth Doctor will have disturbed, destroyed, and caused inconvenient to. But on the other hand, there seem to be these restrictions that the Doctor can't rationally die in any situations that will allow him to leave clues to his past. This is very problematic, as many of the threats we've seen throughout the series could be solved by these methods similar to the Big Bang...so they're just not threatening unless there is a way to work around this. --222.166.181.29 17:38, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe that the thirteenth doctor would be able to prevent his death. The tenth doctor clearly didn't want to die(even though he only regenerated), and he knew his death was coming, but he wasn't able to prevent it. Besides, even if the thirteenth doctor could prevent his death, he would still die eventually. The first doctor is proof that timelords do age if they go long enough without regenerating, so the doctor will die eventually. Also, the timelords can not give the doctor a new regenerative cycle, because they are dead. The Deadly Assassin and The TV Movie both make it very clear that the 12 regenerations limit is a physical limit, and not a psychological one.Icecreamdif 18:16, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The honest answer? Whoever is running the show will ignore it. You want an in-universe explanation? Pre-Time-War, Time Lords made sure their soldiers would keep coming back by removing the limit/indefinitely bestowing regenerations/set up a system where all regenerations would be pooled (leaving the Doctor with thirteen multiplied by the Time Lord population), and the whole thing will be explained away as a quirk caused by the Time War, or a lie the Doctor told his companions, or whatever... Cannon881 18:37, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

It definetly wan't a lie that he told his companions. The entire plot of both the Deadly Assassin and the TV Movie was that the Master was out of regenerations, and needed to use the eye of harmony to get a new body and a new regenerative cycle. It would be stupid if they decided to write a way around the regeneration limit, because it would get to be a ridiculous number of doctors, and the Doctor would be more like Captain Jack if it turned out that he was immortal. Matt Smith, and his two successors should just stay on for a while(unlike Christopher Eccleston), and then the show should end when the thirteenth doctor is ready to leave.Icecreamdif 18:50, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

• There is always the Crystal Ball of Zog which RTD mentioned... hehe. But I don't think the BBC will end it after the 13th one. They might, if the ratings are so low, but I doubt it. Maybe they'll simply leave it a mystery, like the eighth Doctor's regeneration; having the thirteenth leave perfectly happy and fine, then the next episode simply introduce a new one, without regeneration. The Thirteenth Doctor 19:00, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

My main concern about the Thirteenth Doctor, whether he is just a big annoying recurring compulsive-obsessive psychological problem or physiological one, is that he is supposingly the last incarnation, and when it's about survival, the Thirteenth Doctor is bound to break rules as he has always shown, just like what he did in the Big Bang, because there's probably no punishment/consequence greater than death. Tenth maybe afraid to break rules and stuff, because he still had to live to suffer the consequences as tenth or eleventh, but unless something stops him, the Thirteenth Doctor will do anything and break any rule to keep himself alive if he wish to stay alive. The afraid of creating paradoxes and forbidden from crossing own timeline arguments that the writers use so often don't apply to him. The point is that has anyone figured out a way to reasonably explain such continuity gap something to exterminate this annoying Thirteenth Doctor problem that plagues the show, or is the Thirteenth Doctor destined to die in a sudden death or to die willingly? As long as this problem isn't solved, many of the threatening situations in the show just don't work out at all regardless of which incarnation it is...--222.166.181.20 19:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Cannon881, was just editing when you responded...anyway, you can remove any problem by saying the writers will ignore it...but attempting to explain it in a the perspective of the characters would be a nice way to solve the continuity gap. The problem doesn't only lie in the Thirteenth Doctor...it also refers to any possible life-threatening situation the Doctor faces in a resourceful state...but I just kept refering to it because it's common knowledge/assumption/whatever that the Thirteenth Doctor will face the ultimate death. --222.166.181.20 19:03, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

There's always the option of the ultimate reboot... a literal, 100% new continuity. And does it say anywhere in relation to those two stories how many regenerations the Master used up? Besides, this is mere pedantry. If the ratings are enough, the Beeb will keep the show. End. Which particular marketing exec who used to watch Tom Baker is gonna say "Actually, boss, because of a throwaway line 25 years ago, our multi-million pound franchise is going to have to be scrapped."? Is remaining true to the story worth that much? If the BBC announced there would be no Doctors after 13, I would personally set up a campaign to make them reconsider their decision. A good story may be essential to good television, but I'll be damned if I let that story get in the way of me ever seeing that television show again. Cannon881 19:09, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

• I've recently made a forum about the properties of the chameleon arch, which is something that could actually be used here. The chameleon arch changes biology from Time Lord to Human and the consciousness is stored in the fob watch. Note that it's only ever the consciousness that is said to be kept there, never the physical details. When the watch opens and returns the conciousness to said Time Lord, the cells change back to Time Lord, but, where do the details come from? Perhaps the cells actually return to their default state; they are changed to Time Lord, but not given any properties, such as age or number of regenerations. This would mean that the tenth Doctor's regeneration would essentially be the second, first regeneration. --The Thirteenth Doctor 19:21, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The regeneration limit was talked about in both of the episodes where the master had used up his regenerations. The chameleon arch theory could work if the writers wanted it to, but it would be weird for the 14th Doctor to say "technically I should be out of regenerations but 4 regeneraions ago somethiing happened and my limit is now 23." It would have made since if it had been mentioned in Human Nature or the Family of Blood. After 13 doctors the show should stop, even if the ratings are strong. It is always better to end a show when it has good ratings, and to leave the audience wanting more, than to keep the show going until the ratings go down.Icecreamdif 19:27, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

You guys are assuming the the doctor cannot possibly die before his thirteenth regeneration. This is not true. Remember what the 10th told wilf. he said that he might die permanently if he didnt have time to regenerate. And it actually happened in Turn Left when the doctor drowned. So even if the doctor has unlimited generations, this doesnt mean that he becomes immortal like captain jack. Now back to the original post, if you consider that the 13th should break the rules just to survive, this must also apply to almost all of his incarnations, because none of them is sure that he'll regenerate. The 10th knew he was going to die, but wasnt sure he'll regenerate, so he should've done the same thing right?77.42.181.163 19:28, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Possible, but how would this be explained? If I was the Doctor, it's not something I'd drop into conversation, especially as it is referencing two things that neither effect nor bother the (no doubt relieved) companion. Sorry, I'm sounding really negative today :P I personally just think it'll be one of those things the fandom will be left to sort out... Like the restoration of the Time Lords between The Gallifrey Chronicles and Rose Cannon881 19:33, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Cannon, there'd be no reason for the Doctor to tell her, especially since she didn't even know about regeneration, or at least not that we know of. I actually hope that it is left a mystery off screen, like the eighth Doctor's. Just look at how much people want to know that, not knowing how he survived beyond thirteen would send them crazy. The Thirteenth Doctor 19:43, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The difference is that the eighth doctor's regeneration is easy to explain. We don't know the exact circumstanes, but we know that something that happened to him 7 times before happened to him again. If they show the thirteenth regenerate with no explanation, it will be harder to explain, because they will be showing something that has been stated to be impossible on multiple occasions. The thirteenth Doctor won't break the rules to avoid regeneration. That is what the Master has done on multiple occasions, by possessing people and by somehow becominging a decaying body and a ghost snake thing. I can't really see the doctor doing any of those things just so he could live longer.Icecreamdif 19:57, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

• Oh no, the Doctor would never harm anyone else to survive, but I'm pretty sure he would break the rules, if he needed to, to stay alive. No matter what anyone says, he wouldn't want to die, survival instincts are too strong, especially when there's a way. I'd still like the 13th's regeneration to be off-screen. The Thirteenth Doctor 20:02, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, the responses are getting completely off topic, can't we bloody keep the discussions on this thread about the continuity problem with Thirteenth Doctor's ultimate death (and that includes any possible ultimate death before the Thirteenth in any resourceful situations), for whether the Thirteenth Doctor's limit is a psychological or physiological one, go to the other thread. --222.166.181.34 20:06, August 3, 2010 (UTC)