Howling:Eye of Harmony in the Doctor's TARDIS (view source)
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:::Isn't there a line in one of the novels or something about the Doctor's TARDIS being well over 5000 years old? Then again, the average Gallifreyan lives for well over a thousand years, so that's probably not really enough time for the location of the prime Eye to be forgotten by the majority of Time Lords. [[Special:Contributions/213.121.200.42|213.121.200.42]] 11:32, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | :::Isn't there a line in one of the novels or something about the Doctor's TARDIS being well over 5000 years old? Then again, the average Gallifreyan lives for well over a thousand years, so that's probably not really enough time for the location of the prime Eye to be forgotten by the majority of Time Lords. [[Special:Contributions/213.121.200.42|213.121.200.42]] 11:32, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::::I don't remember exactly that. But in ''The Gallifrey Chronicles'', the Doctor's TARDIS is strongly hinted to be Marnal's (and Marnal definitely believes it is), and Marnal apparently had it for a few millennia before Ulysses got him out of the way. That's close enough to 5000 years, but it's also just one generation before the Doctor (literally; Ulysses was the Doctor's father). And if that's all true, the Doctor had very good reason to change the lock to require his half-human retinas, what with full-Time Lord Marnal stuck on Earth, his full-Time Lord son (possibly the Master) looking for vengeance, etc. Or, putting together that story with ''The Doctor's Wife'', the TARDIS—heading for decomission with her owner lost and stuck on Earth—maybe at first chose the Doctor to get back to Marnal, but quickly decided she liked him better, and made the change so Marnal and the Master could never steal her back. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ::::I don't remember exactly that. But in ''The Gallifrey Chronicles'', the Doctor's TARDIS is strongly hinted to be Marnal's (and Marnal definitely believes it is), and Marnal apparently had it for a few millennia before Ulysses got him out of the way. That's close enough to 5000 years, but it's also just one generation before the Doctor (literally; Ulysses was the Doctor's father). And if that's all true, the Doctor had very good reason to change the lock to require his half-human retinas, what with full-Time Lord Marnal stuck on Earth, his full-Time Lord son (possibly the Master) looking for vengeance, etc. Or, putting together that story with ''The Doctor's Wife'', the TARDIS—heading for decomission with her owner lost and stuck on Earth—maybe at first chose the Doctor to get back to Marnal, but quickly decided she liked him better, and made the change so Marnal and the Master could never steal her back. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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:::"Eye of Harmony" could simply be the Timelords' name for Black Hole. TARDISes could have mini black holes with a very weak gravitational field. The Eye of Harmony on Gallifrey was presumably a much larger black hole. It would have been gravitationally shielded so it didnt swallow up the planet, hence it would be impossible to locate it exactly. And actually it *is* theoretically possible to generate power from a black hole, by capturing the Hawking Radation which is emitted from it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_evaporation) [[Special:Contributions/187.58.98.57|187.58.98.57]] 12:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | :::"Eye of Harmony" could simply be the Timelords' name for Black Hole. TARDISes could have mini black holes with a very weak gravitational field. The Eye of Harmony on Gallifrey was presumably a much larger black hole. It would have been gravitationally shielded so it didnt swallow up the planet, hence it would be impossible to locate it exactly. And actually it *is* theoretically possible to generate power from a black hole, by capturing the Hawking Radation which is emitted from it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation#Black_hole_evaporation) [[Special:Contributions/187.58.98.57|187.58.98.57]] 12:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | ||
::::They talk about black holes many times without calling them "eyes of harmony". The Doctor explained how the Eye and Gallifrey were kept in balance in ''The Deadly Assassin'', so you don't need to explain it yourself. And the amount of energy you'd get from Hawking radiation is so tiny there would be no point, but there are much better ways to use one (Kip Thorne suggested a few, and then there's the Penrose process); in fact, the standard example of what a Kardashev Type III civilization does for energy is to harness a supermassive black hole in this way (the Time Lords are said to be "Kardashev Class 4", but presumably they were "Class 3" in the time of Omega and Rassilon, and time travel and dimensional technology are what brought them a step beyond Kardashev's imagination). --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ::::They talk about black holes many times without calling them "eyes of harmony". The Doctor explained how the Eye and Gallifrey were kept in balance in ''The Deadly Assassin'', so you don't need to explain it yourself. And the amount of energy you'd get from Hawking radiation is so tiny there would be no point, but there are much better ways to use one (Kip Thorne suggested a few, and then there's the Penrose process); in fact, the standard example of what a Kardashev Type III civilization does for energy is to harness a supermassive black hole in this way (the Time Lords are said to be "Kardashev Class 4", but presumably they were "Class 3" in the time of Omega and Rassilon, and time travel and dimensional technology are what brought them a step beyond Kardashev's imagination). --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
In ''The Doctor's Wife'', it was also stated that the TARDIS was already a musuem piece when he was young. Whenever he went back to Gallifrey in the classic series, other Time Lords were amazed by the fact that an old type 40 would still exist, and would often want to take a look inside etc. because they were so amazed at how old it was. It is possible that more modern TARDISes don't contain an Eye of Harmony or link to they eye or whatever, and have developed a new system generating power. I doubt that "Eye of Harmony" is the Time Lord word for black hole, because they didn't use the term at all in ''The Three Doctors,'' when all of their power was being drained by a black hole.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 17:02, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | In ''The Doctor's Wife'', it was also stated that the TARDIS was already a musuem piece when he was young. Whenever he went back to Gallifrey in the classic series, other Time Lords were amazed by the fact that an old type 40 would still exist, and would often want to take a look inside etc. because they were so amazed at how old it was. It is possible that more modern TARDISes don't contain an Eye of Harmony or link to they eye or whatever, and have developed a new system generating power. I doubt that "Eye of Harmony" is the Time Lord word for black hole, because they didn't use the term at all in ''The Three Doctors,'' when all of their power was being drained by a black hole.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 17:02, August 15, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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But the Eye of Harmony is not a regular black hole, is it? It's a singularity that's been specially adapted by Gallifreyan technology, right? Even without the prime Eye, the Time Lords could have designed the Eyes inside TARDISes using the same principles. It wasn't until after the prime Eye's rediscovery that all the mini-Eyes were linked up to it. Alternatively, just how many people in TDA don't know the precise location of the prime Eye? I find it a bit hard to believe that the Lord President and the High Council would have lost it so easily. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 09:22, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | But the Eye of Harmony is not a regular black hole, is it? It's a singularity that's been specially adapted by Gallifreyan technology, right? Even without the prime Eye, the Time Lords could have designed the Eyes inside TARDISes using the same principles. It wasn't until after the prime Eye's rediscovery that all the mini-Eyes were linked up to it. Alternatively, just how many people in TDA don't know the precise location of the prime Eye? I find it a bit hard to believe that the Lord President and the High Council would have lost it so easily. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 09:22, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
: Well, the Eye may be a regular black hole, or it may be the singularity removed from the center of the black hole (it's pretty ambiguous). Either way, it's not said anywhere that they adapted it; they just had to use gravitational engineering to move it, keep it in balance with Gallifrey, and to draw energy from it. (That might involve a simple kind of "adaptation"—if you convert a bunch of its potential energy into angular momentum it's a lot easier to draw energy from, and probably a lot easier to work with. But that wouldn't help you build smaller black holes or singularities.) | |||
: As for your disbelief: go back and watch the episodes; it's clear that the Master is the only one who knows its location, until the Doctor figures it out, and some of the top people on Gallifrey believed it was a myth. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | |||
The link to the Eye on Gallifrey in the TV Movie could be unique to the Doctor's TARDIS. It seems to me that TARDISes are usually powered by the TARDIS Heart, which is seen in "Rose" and "The Parting of the Ways", et al. During the Seventh Doctor's tenure, it was frequently implied that the Doctor was some kind of reincarnation of the Other, a contemporary of Rassilon and Omega, the founders of Time Lord culture, from Gallifrey's distant past. It's my belief that while the "spirit" of the Other resides inside the Doctor's psyche, it only occasionally rises to the surface so he can remember his life as the Other; one such time was during his seventh life (This would explain why the Doctor often thinks of himself as just a Time Lord, while at other times he's aware that he's much more than that). I think the First Doctor might have been partially "possessed" by the Other when he initially fled from Gallifrey with Susan and the Hand of Omega (The Other might well have psychically prompted him to take the Hand, having foreknowledge of his future), and if the Other had been involved in the creation of the Eye, the First Doctor could've utilised that knowledge to build the link to the Eye that we see in the TVM, as a source of extra power. After the Other's spirit went dormant, the Doctor might've forgotten about the link/blocked it from his memory, until his seventh and eighth lives. I seem to recall a line of dialogue in the TVM that the Eye in the TARDIS hasn't been opened for hundreds of years, so I reckon the First Doctor is a prime candidate for its builder. Being linked to the prime Eye on Gallifrey, the TARDIS's Eye would probably be effected by any changes to the prime Eye, which could explain the need for a human retina pattern. Maybe. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 11:05, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | The link to the Eye on Gallifrey in the TV Movie could be unique to the Doctor's TARDIS. It seems to me that TARDISes are usually powered by the TARDIS Heart, which is seen in "Rose" and "The Parting of the Ways", et al. During the Seventh Doctor's tenure, it was frequently implied that the Doctor was some kind of reincarnation of the Other, a contemporary of Rassilon and Omega, the founders of Time Lord culture, from Gallifrey's distant past. It's my belief that while the "spirit" of the Other resides inside the Doctor's psyche, it only occasionally rises to the surface so he can remember his life as the Other; one such time was during his seventh life (This would explain why the Doctor often thinks of himself as just a Time Lord, while at other times he's aware that he's much more than that). I think the First Doctor might have been partially "possessed" by the Other when he initially fled from Gallifrey with Susan and the Hand of Omega (The Other might well have psychically prompted him to take the Hand, having foreknowledge of his future), and if the Other had been involved in the creation of the Eye, the First Doctor could've utilised that knowledge to build the link to the Eye that we see in the TVM, as a source of extra power. After the Other's spirit went dormant, the Doctor might've forgotten about the link/blocked it from his memory, until his seventh and eighth lives. I seem to recall a line of dialogue in the TVM that the Eye in the TARDIS hasn't been opened for hundreds of years, so I reckon the First Doctor is a prime candidate for its builder. Being linked to the prime Eye on Gallifrey, the TARDIS's Eye would probably be effected by any changes to the prime Eye, which could explain the need for a human retina pattern. Maybe. [[Special:Contributions/82.2.136.93|82.2.136.93]] 11:05, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | ||
: If you accept everything from the novels, then it's quite clearly not unique to the Doctor's TARDIS. ''The Eight Doctors'' explains that every TARDIS after the first few generations has an "avatar" of the Eye like the one we saw in the movie. Later novels tell us that TARDISes in general are powered by a link to the Eye, not just the Doctor's TARDIS. So all of your speculation doesn't work. | |||
: It's possible that the last time it was opened hundreds of years ago was right after the Doctor stole it; it's even possible that he did so as part of tinkering with it to add the human retinal scan (to protect it from Marnal and his son the Master), and of course it's possible that he used his knowledge of the Other to do so. But that doesn't mean he created it; it was there when he stole it. | |||
: As for the Heart vs. the Eye: the Heart doesn't seem to be an energy source; it's been called the "soul" (''Parting of the Ways'', ''The Doctor's Wife''), the "space-time element" (''Arc of Infinity'' and ''Terminus''), and the thing that keeps its occupants in time with the outside world. The Heart is presumably powered by (the link to) the Eye, or rather was until the LGTW, and now the Doctor powers it off time rifts (possibly by annihilating time and anti-time, as in ''Zagreus''). Also, notice that the Heart's presence is what makes it impossible for House to eat the energy in TARDISes unless he first removes it. --[[Special:Contributions/173.228.85.35|173.228.85.35]] 20:19, August 16, 2011 (UTC) | |||
: Well, I'm a tad skeptical about the reliability of the majority of DW novels, particularly those written during the "wilderness years" between the end of the classic series and the beginning of the new one. Anything they say, I take with a pinch of salt. But if there are Eyes inside all TARDISes, it could just be that they were initially entirely separate from the prime Eye on Gallifrey, and were artificial singularities named in honour of the semi-mythical artifact. The creation of singularities doesn't appear too difficult for Time Lord science, as the Tenth Doctor stated in The Impossible Planet that his people "practically created black holes." [[Special:Contributions/213.121.200.42|213.121.200.42]] 09:41, August 17, 2011 (UTC) | |||