Okay so has anyone noticed any continuing themes among the episodes? So far I've got Christmas references and The Doctor claiming he's part of the song being played. Anyone seen anything else? Cory Jaynes ☎ 01:42, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
- The arcs are never just small things like that. Or, are you forgetting the "highly important" red phones and eyes from season 5? Christmas is the Doctor's favorite holiday, and the Christmas special will be important, but apart from that there is no importance to the Doctor's references to the holiday. I doubt that the Doctor claiming to be part of the song being played is important at all. I'm sure the Silence arc will be continued at some point, but there doesn't seem to be any reference to that. So far, the closest thing there seems to be to an arc is that the Doctor is no longer as well known as he has been in the past. The Daleks have forgotten him, and Solomon's computer failed to realize how valuable he was. This obviously references his "death" at the end of season 6, and how he wants to be more inconspicous than he has been in the past.Icecreamdif ☎ 15:38, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not forget, either, that Series 7 is billed (by the Beeb) as being much less "arc-heavy" than Series 6 was. And before anyone says "but Moffat lies", he lies about what's going to happen in episodes, not about the kind of show he's giving us. --89.241.73.93talk to me 21:58, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Much less arc-heavy does not necessarily mean that there will be no arcs. More likely, it will be more like the first five seasons of the new series that have small arcs in the background of the episodes, that don't really become important until the finale, as opposed to Season 6, which had about half the episodes directly connected to the major story arc of the season. Still, Cory Jaynes' suggestions aren't really arcs, but small references that could constitute a running joke at most.Icecreamdif ☎ 01:37, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
well, for more small, more stylistically than story related things, the name of the episode has been said in story for both the past stories. let's see if this trend continues. Imamadmad ☎ 06:28, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure that that's an arc, but it is kind of interesting. Of course, there have been plenty of episodes where the name of the episode has been said in story (Dalek, The War Games, The Mark of the Rani, etc.), so the fact that that has happenned in two episodes in a row is hardly enough to say that it is a trend. However, based on the trailers, the fact that the town is called Mercy in A Town Called Mercy is thematically important, so there might be a namedrop in that episode too. The Angels Take Manhattan and The Power of Three both sound a bit awkward for the Doctor or another character to just use in conversation, but its possible.Icecreamdif ☎ 16:34, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Not that awkward. "If <such-and-such happens>, the Angels take Manhattan," is a perfectly possible line -- especially for an American character, since it's more a US idiom than a UK one. "The Power of Three" would be easy enough to put in if there were a bit of maths involved. That kind of namedropping is perfectly possible. It's not what many folk would think of as a story arc, though. A gimmick, maybe, but not a story arc. --89.242.73.225talk to me 22:46, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's definetly possible to fit those name drops in. They've gotten weirder ones in before, and it can't be much worse than the Master saying "The mark of the Rani" every five minutes.Icecreamdif ☎ 03:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd not say that was weird. I'd say it was crass. Dropping the name is one thing. Beating the audience over the head with it is another. --89.241.70.57talk to me 08:06, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, the Doctor mentions Christmas (indeed, his Christmas list) again in A Town Called Mercy. --78.146.185.135talk to me 21:05, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Most likely that's just a reference to the previous episode when he said that he had a Christmas list. Still, it's possible that Christmas references will continue to be some kind of running joke.Icecreamdif ☎ 02:12, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
Anybody interested in another possible arc should probably check out my discussion about flickering light bulbs... 94.72.192.2talk to me 21:38, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
I've seen that & it strikes me as a better candidate than any of the ones mentioned here so far. Note that "a better candidate" doesn't necessarily mean it actually is tied in to a story arc for Series 7. It does mean it's more likely to be than anything else I've encountered up to now. --89.240.254.19talk to me 00:40, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
We're three for three on Christmas. Asylum: "At long last, it's Christmas, here I am!"; Dinosaurs: "Dad, I'm 31, I don't have a Christmas list anymore."; Mercy: "Has someone been peeking at my Christmas list?". All before the titles, too. At worst, it's some pretty unsubtle marketing. Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 06:01, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
Are you sure Christmas was mentioned before the opening titles in episode 2? 94.72.192.2talk to me 15:38, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
Oops. Pocket trowel, beach scene, sorry... Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 20:50, September 17, 2012 (UTC)
Big non-verbal Christmas reference in Power of Three, even though it was a natural result of a yearlong stay. Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 19:55, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
I can't see how they'll fit a Christmas reference into "The Angels Take Manhattan" but I'm sure they'll find a way. 94.72.194.203talk to me 20:55, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
I can see how they could fit a Christmas reference into "The Angels Take Manhattan".
- Example 1: Neon signs all over the place -- "All lit up like a Christmas tree."
- Example 2: Foldable gardening tool in shop window -- "That's the sort of thing your [Rory's] dad would like for Christmas."
And so on...
Trouble is, I can see so many different possible ways that I've no idea whatever how they'll actually do it (if they do). --78.146.189.73talk to me 09:00, September 24, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, there are tons of ways he could work Christmas into the Angels story; it's much more interesting to try to guess what Christmas is pointing to.
I know this is crazy, but the more I think about Christmas, the more I think about how the only Larry Miles book that Moffat hasn't plundered for ideas that he put a completely different spin on is the first one, Christmas on a Rational Planet. I can almost imagine what Moffat could with the key plot elements—and it could even allow for a flashback with Rassilon, to kick off the 2013 anniversary year. The big problem is that, despite the title, the book isn't really about Christmas… --70.36.140.233talk to me 06:02, September 25, 2012 (UTC)
Oh, but: I don't think there will be a major story arc. This can be a one-shot story, and the rest of series 7 can be more like season 20, a bunch of standalone stories with a single theme (in that case the return of old enemies, in this case something different—maybe the need to clean up different messes left behind by the Time Lords and/or their destruction or something). --70.36.140.233talk to me 06:12, September 25, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe the Christmas arc is foreshadowing Christmas. It's not like all arcs usually amount to anything, because the fun part is actually noticing these arcs. 94.72.194.203talk to me 16:44, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
For what it's worth, we got a Christmas reference in the post-credits scene of "The Angels Take Manhattan". 94.72.194.203talk to me 19:46, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
River asked "Doctor Who?" in Angels. The Daleks (and the Doctor) said the same thing in Asylum while Dinosaurs on a Spaceship referred to the Doctor being erased from databases and Town Called Mercy referred to this obliquely with the feint about the cyborg looking for "The doctor". I think it's quite clear that we're leading to "The Question". 74.198.9.68talk to me 15:16, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
I'm tempted to call Winter 'key' (quay) a Christmas or 'Christmas Special' reference. Wibbly-Wobbly ☎ 21:52, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
This is just a possibility I'd like to bring up (though it may very well have nothing to do with this at all): The fact that each episode's title has been spoken in every episode lends credence to a theory I had in season 6 (or series 6, whatever you'd like to call them now). The mention of the "fall of the eleventh" by Dorium seemed a bit too obvious for it to be simply a reference to the Eleventh Doctor's downfall. So what if this purposeful inclusion of title names in the last 5 episodes is Moffat's way of reminding us that the titles of episodes are more important than we think? 'The Eleventh Hour' always struck me as having a double meaning, even if we don't yet know what it is. My theory since the prophecy was revealed was already that "fall of the eleventh" was a mention to a moment in time (i.e. "at the fall of the eleventh hour"). This new mention of title names just furthers my belief in that. Even recently in TATM, its been noted that the chapter page is "a page of handy hints- previews, spoiler-free". Though even if that has nothing to do with this, I still think that line was rather important.
Also, even though this is supposed to be a "less arc-heavy" season, doesn't mean no arc at all. If anything, that would mean that small hints would need to be used more than in previous seasons, to still provide a smaller (or "lighter", if you will) and more covert way of including the story arc into these newer and more self-contained stories without detracting too much from their individual plot lines. I personally would be happy to see it continue that way in the future, because it gives obsessive theorists like myself (and many of you) something to look for, while also appealing to the more casual crowd. Just a thought. Saghan ☎ 15:18, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Did anyone say the title in A Town Called Mercy? Obviously they said "Mercy" plenty of times, but did they say the full title?Icecreamdif ☎ 15:39, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
I think the Dcotor did just after the opening titles. 87.102.118.41talk to me 16:28, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
- I think it was in the concluding voiceover, talking about the place that didn't need cops. (Not totally certain, though, without watching again.) --89.240.242.255talk to me 16:30, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Might have been both places. Obviously we do need to watch again to check it out. --89.240.242.255talk to me 16:32, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, it seems the closest they get to saying it is when Isaac says, "We called this town Mercy for a reason". That may not be the exact title of the episode, but the fact that he says they "did it for a reason" puts it close enough to still fit in my opinion, if not actually adding a bit more to my theorized reason for why they're using the episode names in the titles in the first place. But, alas, I've been wrong plenty of times. I don't mind being wrong again, I was just trying to give a reason for why it's happening. It also still doesn't make me believe any less about my eleventh hour theory. Saghan ☎ 17:48, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
- For some reason nobody's posted this here, so, in case anyone missed the obvious, The Power of Three dropped its name, plus its original name, in Amy's narration at th ened: "It was also when we realized something the Shakri never understood, what Cubed actually means: The Power of Three." Yes, it's a play on the fact that the Doctor, Amy, and Rory (and apparently not Brian?) together are an unstoppable power, but really, just barely, and some critics complained that it was awkward (just a Icecreamdif predicted it would be…) and forced. And they noticed it was forced without even knowing about this thread.
- "The Angels Take Manhattan", of course, was a title in River's book.
- Anyway, if this does mean something, it could just be a cute little game Moffat's playing, or a marketing ploy for something we haven't heard about yet. (Remember the secret messages on the website that turned out to be ads for the Experience? Maybe someone just discovered that Uncle Terry can't stop writing novelisations even if nobody asks him to, so they're going to start selling them for the new series now?)
- But it's not impossible that it could be a plot arc. There was a novel storyline (I think by Paul Magrs—but maybe Moffat's run out of Larry Miles ideas to adapt, and he has to turn to another writer?) about the Doctor's adventures being turned into books as a way to tie him down. And of course the main plot of Angels works as a hint to the same idea… --70.36.140.233talk to me 03:23, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
None of us missed the obvious, the reason we didn't mention that "The Power of Three" was said is because it was too obvious. It was the only really memorable part of the episode.
By the way, Saghan, you mentioned that "A Town Called Mercy" wasn't said in the episode. Are you going by a memory for two weeks ago or have you seen the episode recently? 87.102.118.41talk to me 16:18, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
- Being obsessive about wanting to pause and zoom on each episode to study possible clues in the background, coupled with being stuck in America and being far too impatient to wait for episodes to air here when they come on television over there several hours before they do here, I tend to download the episodes shortly after the initial broadcast. So when we were earlier discussing it, I took a moment to scan through the parts that were mentioned to have possibly included it, and didn't find it. Which I must say was odd at the time, because I was fairly certain they did say it. (I even claimed in my previous post that the titles had been said in every episode.) In fairness, I also didn't rewatch the entire episode right then, but I did have a copy of a transcript for the episode open as well and similarly found nothing. Though it was written by someone other than me, so I can't in all good faith call that a completely perfect source for the information. I haven't found any mistakes in the transcripts I've used in the past though. (Emphasis on found.) I'm sure I'll be watching it again quite soon if nobody else does so beforehand, and I'll be sure to listen specifically for that line. Saghan ☎ 23:10, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, a line you _find_ only takes 15 seconds to verify, but a line you _don't_ find takes 45 minutes. I usually get both a fan transcript and the official closed captions or subtitles and see if they agree before being comfortable with a negative. (Captions can be hard to search because of all of the errors, but on the plus side the errors can be pretty funny. It's a shame that the Doctor's companion Don Nobel never appeared onscreen except in little white on black letters.) --70.36.140.233talk to me 05:08, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
- I am a huge fan of captions, in everything I watch. I agree they have plenty of errors, but I've caught things I didn't even know were being said in many shows and movies because of them. Upon my first viewing, I never noticed the TARDIS said anything as she was fading away in The Doctor's Wife, and was very surprised to see a caption show up when I bought the dvd- especially one reading "I love you." Saghan ☎ 16:28, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe the title was referenced in another way because a name drop doesn't have to be audial. If it's not there at all, then I'm probably going to start thinking that these name drops aren't intentional. 83.100.250.223talk to me 15:44, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Saghan: Those are actually the subtitles, not the closed captions. Subtitles are made for people whose English may not be good enough to follow the speech without help; captions are made for deaf people. That means the captions often have descriptive text like "*WHOOSHING NOISE*". Also, at least in the 80s, captions were transcribed by a grunt at the BBC shortly before airdate to meet accessibility requirements, which is why you get lots of typos and crazy guesses at spelling like "Nissa and Tigan", while the subtitles were created by the production team or BBC Enterprises as part of shopping the completed season for overseas sales, so there were a lot fewer errors, and they tended to be things like having completely incorrect lines from a deleted scene in place of the scene actually appearing. (Things can't possibly work that way anymore, since overseas deals are negotiated a year in advance, to air in sync with the UK… but I have no idea how things _do_ work nowadays.)
- 83: I think you may be right. TAofD, DonS, and TPO3 said their titles out loud, TATM had it as a chapter title in the book, ATCM was set in a town called Mercy. So maybe it's not literally speaking the name aloud, but including the name in the story more generally. Anyway, I thought the whole thing was nonsense until TPO3, but since then, I'm not sure; it's hard to understand why they wrote that bizarrely forced closing narration except to deliberately reference the name of the episode. --70.36.140.233talk to me 02:32, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
- TATM also had its title spoken aloud, by the Doctor, when they were figuring out that the place was being used by the Angels as a "farm". --89.242.75.146talk to me 07:10, October 4, 2012 (UTC)