Howling:Oh dear we are in trouble
Ok so if the doctor doesnt die at trenzalore then why does he have a grave why does the universe as we know it exist simple the echo of clara helped the first doctor find a tardis but if the timestream never happend whats the doctor doing inside the tardis with clara
Theory: It is a fake grave.
Theory: it is still in the doctors future (an even darker episode) since the Gi referenced him being known as the valeyard (possibly meaning that when Peter capaldi regenerates he will end up at trenzalore.
Theory: Perhaps the grave is what is left of an alternate timeline User:Orangerichard56 ☎ 16:05, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
Well, The Doctor isn't actually dead yet, so he could still go on to die at Trenzalore. 87.102.91.126talk to me 01:27, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
Clara wanted the time lords to "change the future". Time can be rewritten, and that's what the timelords did. His grave is now in an alternate, and presumably dead and negated, timeline, although, as 87.102.91.126 pointed out, the doctor isn't dead yet and can still have a grave there(Man, what a disaster that would be!)Afro Circus Afro Circus Afro Polka Polka Dot Afro! 15:08, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
@ Original Poster - I think there was supposed to be some punctuation in that first paragraph somewhere…
@ Afro… - But if that "grave at Trenzalore" timeline is negated, then what about the GI and Clara going throughout the Doctor's time stream? It's possible that those events were also negated, so everything that Clara did across his timeline, all those times saving him and even pointing him to his future TARDIS, might not have happened, so what state is the Universe left in now? Unless the Time Lords, when they gave the Doctor a new set of regenerations, just said, "Forget logic, the effects of an event that never happened are still in play," because somehow they have the power to do that. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 20:20, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
@BioniclesaurKing4t2 - The Time Lords have more than enough technology to hold a paradox like that in place. Even the Doctor's outdated TARDIS could do it after being cannibalized by the Master in The Sound of Drums. Clara told them to change the future, so they would probably infer that the creation of a paradox that would arise by doing so would require preparations. Ensephylon ☎ 05:02, January 7, 2014 (UTC)
- I figured that, if anyone, they did, plus I wouldn't put it past them, so that's why I suggested it. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 00:04, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
After The Name of the Doctor, I posted somewhere in one of the topics here (I can't remember which one & am too tired & lazy to search just now) that I thought the death at Trenzalore would be overwritten -- the timeline changed -- for the out-of-universe reason that letting it stand would impede future writers, including Moffat himself, too much. Mainly, it'd make it impossible to write a credible threat to the Doctor's life that didn't involve Trenzalore, because viewers would think "Not Trenzalore, so he can't die there." As far as I can see, overwriting the death at Trenzalore was exactly what happened when the Time Lords granted the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations; he was on Trenzalore & about to die in battle & they stopped that -- incidentally giving him a nifty way to win the battle (& stuff the Daleks good & proper), in the process. --89.243.204.145talk to me 23:22, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
It is interesting that for all the talk of "fixed points" in the context of the Doctor's supposed death at Lake Silencio, that phrase didn't pop up with regard to Trenzalore. And the fact that the Doctor was well into it before he knew he was on Trenzalore for The Time of The Doctor implies sometime in the future he could be again, without knowing it. And so without us knowing it.
I understand that because The Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore, there is reason to think his tomb would not be there for the GI to "discover." And so the GI would not force the Doctor to go there, to interfere with his timeline, inspiring the Impossible girl to follow to fix it. And if we just leave it there, Clara never becomes the impossible girl, & the Doctor never takes leave of River's ghost. But what would the vengeful GI do instead?
Well, Trenzalore only mattered to the GI because that WAS where the Doctor's tomb was found. If the Doctor didn't die at Trenzalore, and we assume that eventually he will die, them he might die somewhere else. And that is where the GI would have forced the Doctor to go, in order to get into his tomb, to interfere with his timestream, and inspire Clara to follow, and become the Impossible Girl. Phil Stone ☎ 15:30, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
- Think about the graves... all of those graves. for who? there doesn't appear to have been enough people for such a large battlefield grave. He was buried in his TARDIS... but look at the sequence of events. Clara was there to do what she does best: save the Doctor. She had been sent away in the TARDIS, so say she didn't return... the TARDIS was supposed to return without her, but Clara being clara, that wasn't going to happen. to me, those events were always going that way. Also... the grave/etcetera doesn't mean that that will be where he died. look at soldiers in modern armies who die - are they buried on the fields of battle, or in their 'home country'/other suitable descriptor? And what did Trenzalore become to him over those hundreds of years? A home. Trenzalore is not just his burial place, it is a new home to him. One he would visit, and eventually his resting place.
- So he still died, still was buried in the TARDIS on Trenzalore, along with everyone whom had a gravestone there who numbered far more than villagers we saw in the special, he just maybe didn't die on Trenzalore, and not as the Eleventh/Twelfth/Whatever. So since that is, (in my head canon btw) part of what they found when they visited the grave in the Name of the Doctor, the GI still went back 'ripping apart' the Doctor... and Clara still went back fixing the damage done by the GI.
- But as Clara stated... she saw the twelve faces of the Doctor upto him, but that doesn't mean the GI isn't there in his future, trying to make a mess of his entire life. Also, she doesn't necessarily need to remember seeing those that came after, so she could have seen all of his faces, but only remembered the faces of those who came before Eleven... so there could be a version of herself that she meets with Capaldi! "Hi Me," "What?" "Oh, I'm you when you jumped into his time stream, you look like you don't remember this stuff..." "W?ait, now I remember, why didn't I remember?" And the doctor inserts, "oh its like how when I've met other versions of myself, the youngest versions usually end up with the memories blocked except for when the intermediate versions are involved, even not even then experiencing it without remembering, and only the oldest version leaves those times able to remember. My previous incarnation that you first met of me left a certain incident knowing that I, he, hadn't killed the time lords, but the younger versions you also met for that left thinking, we, had killed them, because that's what we remember of the timeline, despite that never occuring."
- This is the sequence of consequences... Second set below, causes the War Doctor to change his plan from destruction. Gallifrey is hidden (and not destroyed by the Moment). Also, the TARDIS is destroyed in a moment of time that she isolated as best as she could (she being the TARDIS), this creates cracks in time that echo backward and forward... One of those cracks is then used by the Timelords to get a distress call to the Doctor. The FEar of their return because of this being what propels people to try to destroy the TARDIS, to prevent the Doctor getting to that point. The attempt to prevent becoming the cause paradox.
- Second set. Clara meets the Doctor, and gets a habit of saving him. this leads her to jumping into his time stream when the Great Intelligence uses it to try to destroy the Doctor in every moment in time, However doing so she meets him in two forms that give him the push to gaining herself as a companion in the first place. With this habit set, she also manages to save an earlier versions as well as his current, from himself, (the hiding instead of destruction). She then, on trenzalore, saves him by inspiring the other time lords, like he did them, into saving the Doctor by gifting a new regeneration cycle.
- Think about it through... all the way through. The Cracks in time were because the TARDIS was destroyed and some made it through after the universe was rebooted. the TARDIS was destroyed because one such crack on Trenzalore was used by the Time Lords to ask the question. The Question was asked by the Time Lords. So the Time Lords couldn't have been destroyed in an original timeline... if they had been, those who caused the TARDIS to be destroyed wouldn't have done so for that reason (hinted at as being the Silence/part of the papal mainframe). Those being good guys, woulnd't have tried that. The TARDIS wouldn't have been destroyed, and it wouldn't also be the resting place of him on trenzalore... so Clara couldn't enter his timestream ,s o he wouldn't have met all the incarnations of her, including Dalek-Oswin or Victorian-Clara, who wouldn't have then led him on a chase through time for her that lead to original Clara Oswald which then wouldn't have led to him encountering the Great Intelligence at that point, which then woudln't have led to whatever lead to the GI finding and using that time portal (wherever it ended up if not trenzalore)... also without the cracks, Amy would just be Amelia, the scottish girl in the south of england, a girl who lived in that house with a protective mum and dad and kept her accent because she's so scottish, who's shed he destroyed when he and the TARDIS landed after becoming the Eleventh. So there wouldn't have been Amy Pond on the TARDIS on her wedding night, there'd be no Melody Pond/Williams who, conceived when on the TARDIS, would be effectively Human-plus-Timelord, therefore no River Song, therefore no 'psycho' to train and fake his death with from season 6.... which is already covered under the 'wouldn't have happened' since no call meant no silence going back blabla...
anyway in summary... it's all connected... so I'd say that his gaining regenerations was NOT a 'change the time line' moment, since it's actually very within the likely results of those situations. and I very much see the TARDIS as having seen it, and knowing that Clara needed to be there to save the Doctor, hence shielding her while returning (when she didn't even try with Captain Jack in Utopia!) AlexMcpherson ☎ 20:39, August 9, 2014 (UTC)
In the tardises defence, jack was a fixed point in time which, like the doctor, she felt as being wrong, and didn't want any contact with him, whereas with clara, by tha point the tardis had developed a bond with her, hell she even allowed clara to close her doors with a snap of her fingers. So she was protecting clara the best she could, which is what took so much energy, which is why she was so slow. --Coop3 ☎ 20:48, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
@AleMcpherson: Wibbly-wobbly, timey wimey.--104.32.214.184talk to me 11:18, November 8, 2014 (UTC)
