Talk:Dalek Time Commander

Rename

If PROSE: Mission to the Known does indeed refer to it as the Dalek Time Commander, I think we should refer to it as such. It's a more specific name than just Time Commander, and supposedly is used in an actual story. As I don't own Mission to the Known, however, it would be nice if somebody could properly verify this. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 17:59, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, and yes it is used in the actual story. Not as frequently as "Time Commander" though. Danochy ☎ 21:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for verifying the name. Although Time Commander is definitely used more than Dalek Time Commander, I'd opt for the latter as it's specifically referring to a Dalek and not potentially some other species. It's like how the page on Dalek Time Strategist (The Shadow Vortex) uses Dalek Time Strategist even though said Dalek is more often just called the Time Strategist. The full name, even if used less often, is more accurate and has an in-universe use. The same logic applies to the Time Commander. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 21:17, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

To play Devil's advocate — is "Dalek" really part of the full name, or is it more of a "demonym"? We have President (Death Comes to Time), not American President (Death Comes to Time), and I imagine we still would name the page like that even if he was described as "the American President" in dialogue, absent need for dabbing. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:34, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

What indicates to you that the "Dalek" in Dalek Time Commander is a demonym? If we start assuming that all uses of the word "Dalek" in the names of individual Daleks are just as demonyms, and should therefore be removed, we get left with names such as Time Controller rather than Dalek Time Controller, or Strategist (New Dalek Paradigm) over Dalek Strategist (New Dalek Paradigm). We get names that end up being unnecessarily vague as to who they're referring to. If we are to call the aforementioned pages as they currently are, with specific use of the word Dalek in their names (as I believe they should be), I believe that rule should apply to all individual Daleks, so long as they are referred to with the word Dalek in their name in an in-universe source. An example of when we wouldn't use the word Dalek in an individual Dalek's name would be Overseer (Planet of the Ogrons), as said Dalek is never referred to as Dalek Overseer in its sole appearance - just "Overseer".

Therefore I see no reason to view the word "Dalek" as a demonym when used as part of an individual Dalek's title. This includes the Time Commander - if it’s explicitly referred to as the "Dalek Time Commander" and not indirectly, such as in a sentence like "the Time Commander was a Dalek", then I believe it's page name should be "Dalek Time Commander" and not "Time Commander". Also, if we are referring to the other Daleks in the Dalek Time Squad as Dalek Prime Strategist or Dalek Executioner (The Guide to the Dark Times), which the Time Commander is also a part of, then there's no need to be explicitly vague with the Time Commander's page name. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 23:19, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

As I said, I was only playing Devil's advocate; I'm not actually personally against the rename, but merely ensuring that every point is looked over and the decision is taken with all possible precaution. Renames of recurring characters are a pain; best to be very sure of what we're going with while this guy's appearances list is still relatively small.

Hence, still in the same spirit, my answer to your counterarguments: the Time Commander is a unique individual; his name needn't be treated the same way as the titles of various Dalek variants. I would point to Emperor of the Restoration and (although it has, of course, now been merged) to Golden Emperor as precedents for unique Daleks' "title-used-as-name" not necessarily having "Dalek" in them. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 23:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

When it comes to pages on unique Daleks that lack the word "Dalek" in their names, I believe that it's best to use a unique title used in-universe to refer to that Dalek, as it's more distinctive than naming that Dalek by its rank, followed by its debut story. Hence why I believe that Emperor of the Restoration is a better name for said Dalek Emperor, rather than something like Dalek Emperor (Defender of the Daleks), or any other title that uses the Dalek's rank and a story in brackets. If we have a non-nickname, in-universe name for it, we can ignore the absence of "Dalek" in its name.

However, if, let's say, in a later in-universe story, the Emperor of the Restoration is referred to as the Dalek Emperor of the Restoration, I believe that the page's name should be changed to reflect such a development. I believe page names should be as accurate as possible, so if a page on a Dalek has a name that lacks the word "Dalek" in it, it should be kept as such unless, in a future story, the word Dalek is featured in its full name. The Time Commander's current name was the most accurate name for a few months, as, as far as I can tell, no in-universe source referred to it by a full title beyond Time Commander, but now that we do have an in-universe source that explicitly refers to it as the Dalek Time Commander (that being PROSE: Mission to the Known), I believe that the inclusion of the word "Dalek" is necessary in its page name, as page names incorporate full titles so long as they're used in-universe. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 12:41, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. I think we've given this a fair shake and will now perform the rename.

Note however that Dalek Emperor (Defender of the Daleks), while we have retained it as a redirect, was never really an option. We had no choice but to go with an individualised in-universe name, because due to a continuity snarl worthy of "who is the Valeyard anyway?", there is some amount of doubt on whether this Emperor should be considered to have debuted in PROSE: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe or in TV: The Parting of the Ways — but he definitely didn't actually debut in Defender. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:23, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for renaming it. I admit that I know the Emperor of the Restoration didn't actually debut in COMIC: Defender of the Daleks, but I thought at the time, given how long I was going on for, that then referring to Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe would make it go on even longer when it may have not been necessary. It was an unnecessary nitpicky thought on my part really. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 15:39, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I should also mention that I did check the infobox for the Emperor of the Restoration concerning its origins in PROSE: Dalek: The Astounding Untold History of the Greatest Enemies of the Universe, but was hesitant to use it in my example concerning why I wouldn't refer to said story if we renamed Emperor of the Restoration, as the nature of Dalek: The Astounding Untold History as a documentation of nearly the entirety of Dalek history means that, at least I thought at the time, multiple Dalek Emperors are referred to within the story, and so trying to use it as an example of what not to hypothetically rename Emperor of the Restoration would be a bit complicated. CyberFoundries900 ☎ 16:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

So it would! Although that wouldn't really make it okay to dab it by his next-to-first appearance. Otherwise we could name John Smith (Tenth Doctor) "John Smith (The Family of Blood)", for example. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Multiple Time Commanders

According to the Dalek Time Commander section from the Dalek Scientist and Dalek Time Commander Eaglemoss figurine set (I'm assuming that's what PROSE: The Restoration Empire is) there are multiple Dalek Time Commanders other than the one that led the Dalek Time Squad. Therefore, I say that this page needs to be reformatted to accommodate primarily for the Dalek Time Commander rank, and a new page should be made for the Dalek Time Commander individual that led the Dalek Time Squad. Thalek Prime Overseer ☎ 23:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

The Restoration Empire is only the (narrative) history of the Restoration Empire that's given in the relevant Eaglemoss issue. The non-narrative breakdown of what different Dalek ranks do is not, IIRC, directly part of that, and therefore is not counted as a valid source. I might be wrong.

In any case, if this information is correct the thing to do would be to rename this one toa dabbed form (with a redirect), and create the page about the rank ex nihilo at Dalek Time Commander (rank). But I'm not sure. The Guide to the Dark Times really does treat "the Time Commander" as the name of an individual. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:02, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

The source I'm referring to is narrative. It's the section named Dalek Time Commanders from the mini magazine included in the Eaglemoss Dalek Time Commander and Dalek Scientist figurine set. There are references on PROSE: The Restoration Empire that specifically come from similar sections, such as the Dalek Scientists finding proof that the Restoration Empire is a divergence in of itself, which comes from the Scientists of the Restoration section of the same mini magazine. This may be the only source that identifies multiple Dalek Time Commanders, but it's just as equally valid and in-universe as the sources identifying just one Time Commander. Thalek Prime Overseer ☎ 11:26, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake, then. Still, as a general rule, remember that there are bits in the Eaglemoss magazines that aren't considered to be part of the main story in the magazine (the Anatomy of the Emperor diagram, for example).

Well, I reckon someone needs to go through the Special:WhatLinksHere of Dalek Time Commander to change allusions to the title to Dalek Time Commander (rank), and ones to the individual to Dalek Time Commander (The Guide to the Dark Times). I'm not sure which of the two pages should get the redirect.Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:51, 21 May 2021 (UTC)