Theory talk:Timeline - Eighth Doctor

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Should be in user namespace

This article shouldn't be in main, as it's an obvious essay based at least in part on invalid sources. It deviates from the usual practice on timeline pages of simply accepting the DWRG as read. It's very confusing to have all other Doctor's timelines just straight copies of the DWRG, but to have this one be sort of a hodgepodge of other sources.

Not, of course, that I'm actually conferring any sort of legitimacy on Second Doctor - Timeline, for instance. Timeline pages are abominations. They all should be wholesale deleted because they're based on an invalid source: the DWRG. And there is simply no other source which our own policies will allow us to use that can be considered reliable for the creation of a timeline page.

Timelines are fanwankery. They always will be.

But if you're not going to join me in following the rules of the wiki, at least make our violation of our own policies consistent. Pull this one back to the user namespace, instead of including it in main.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:13: Fri 21 Oct 2011 

Sorry, but...

1)DWM refererd to the "newly-regenerated" Eighth Doctor for Endgame.

And in The Glorious Dead Part 9, The Master says:

"In the past few months alone you have warped the Holloway woman's future, shattered Sato's honour and attempted to murder the benevolent Kroton. "

So, the Doctor Who Magazine comics come very soon after The TV Movie, and everything from The TV Movie to the end of The Glorious Dead takes place over "a few months". To say nothing of the Threshold storyline. Would the Threshold wait for the Doctor to have centuries of other adventures before saying "Remember us?" Of course not.

2)In Seeing I, Chapter 12:

"She shook her head with a grin. 'Ahh, come off it. You were taking side trips even when we first got together. It was three months for me, three years for you..."

In The Placebo Effect, Chapter 3:

"Sam laughed. 'Who's getting hitched?'

'Two dear friends of mine. I haven't seen them for a while.'

Sam raised an eyebrow. 'Anyone I know?'

'No. No. I don't think so. They...travelled with me for a few months'.

'How long ago?'

'Ah. Well. Promise you won't get upset?'

Sam's other eyebrow raised. 'Oh yes? This sounds good'.

'Remember not long after we first met, and I dropped you off at that Greenpeace rally in Canada?'

'Uh-huh'.

The Doctor smiled. Sheepishly. 'Well, you know that while only a few hours passed for you-'

'You'd been gone nearly a year of your time. Yes, I remember'.

'Well, I met them then.' The Doctor took the book back. After we parted, they stayed together. Very romantic, I suppose. "

So, there is no "three year gap". This is sort of equivalent to the Eleventh Doctor and Clara. They travel together for a while, he drops her off at home, travels alone(or with other companions), then returns and travels with Clara, then drops her off, and travels alone, then...

The Eighth Doctor aged three years from The TV Movie to Vampire Science. However, he travelled off and on with Sam during those three years. And his sheepish smile suggests that this "nearly a year" gap which included his travels with Stacy and Ssard, as well as (from Page 20) "Met up with some friends. Saved Earth from alien invaders. Hung around with an old archaeology chum of mine"(The Dying Days) is the longest of these "side trips".

Or to put it another way, there is no chance of using one of these gaps for where he travelled with one companion for "three or four years", as well as the travels with Mary, Samson and Gemma.

It must go something like: The TV Movie-The Eight Doctors-The Dying Days-DWM Comics-Radio Times Comics-Doctor travels with Sam again-Totem-Doctor travels with Sam again-short stories where Doctor is travelling alone-Doctor travels with Sam again- Master of Spiders ☎

3)And Vampire Science, Page 160 actually says:

"One day he dropped me off at a rally, and when I got back he told me he'd just popped off in the TARDIS for a while. A pretty long while, actually - like a year."

While the "three years" is the Doctor's age since regenerating(in The TV Movie), from Page 206 of Vampire Science:

" 'Well, I don't know who he was I'm still not sure I know who you are.' He moved as if to get up, and she reached out to his shoulder to keep him there. 'There are all these basic little things you still haven't told me yet. I mean - how old are you?'

He thought for a moment, counting back through the months. 'Three.'

'What?' She sat up and stared at him. 'Three what? Centuries? Three oogleplexes? What?'

he shook his head. 'No, no, three years. I'm sure I heard Sam lecturing you about regeneration.'

'Well, yeah but-'

'It's all perfectly simple. That's how long it's been since my last fatal accident. That's when this body was born.'

'No, no, no. I mean how old are you really? All your lives together.' Good grief, she thought irritatedly, it sounds like you're interviewing Shirley MacLaine.

'Well, I'm not really sure. there's some question of whether I lost count.'

'Round it off, at least.'

He started frantically counting on his fingers. 'Um, about...'

'Come on, it can't take that long to-'

'...one thousand and twelve.'

Silence.

'Carolyn?'

This was sensible, it was logical, when someone's lived a bunch of lives in succession it's reasonable for them to go past a normal human lifespan. She really should have thought about this before - it was obvious really. There was absolutely no reason for suddenly to be feeling cold.

He moved over until he was sitting next to her. 'It's a big number, isn't it?' he said quietly.

She nodded without a word.

He smiled gently. and the corners of his eyes crinkled up. 'I know. That's why I prefer three'. Master of Spiders ☎ 09:14, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yep you're right. I've had a look myself now and this "three year gap" thing is a fan myth partially based on truth. So now, the DWM comics have to come first, with some wriggle room for the short stories set early in his life before he meets Izzy. That would make up the "months" comment in The Glorious Dead. The problem is, though, there's no stories set in the Doctor's first three years where it's made clear that its set before Vampire Science and the Doctor's skipping out on her whilst she's sleeping etc.

Another problem that hasn't been looked at yet is why in Alien Bodies the Doctor says something along the lines of never meeting someone who was a complex space-time event before, which means that he can't have met Charley yet either.

With the basis of this timeline being around what is said in the story's themselves, we clearly need to do some work on this timeline. --Revan\Talk 21:03, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

I think in The Girl Who Never Was (audio story), either the Doctor or Charley mention how they've been travelling together for "three or four years"(can't remember the exact wording, will need to find the exact quote) since they first met in Storm Warning (audio story), a comment which by itself means it can't possibly go between The Eight Doctors (novel) and Vampire Science. Then remember that the adventures with Samson Griffin and Gemma Griffin go immediately before Storm Warning (audio story), and the "years" worth of adventures with Mary Shelley go somewhere in there as well, and add that to the fact that the idea of a single "three year gap" existing only in the minds of a small group of fans, and you see that the Eight Doctor's Monthly Range BFA Audios can not possibly fit between the first two EDA novels.

Since Endgame (DWM comic story) takes place very soon after The TV Movie, it likely goes straight from The TV Movie to The Eight Doctors (novel) to Bounty (audio story) to the Doctor first leaving Sam, then straight to Endgame (DWM comic story). Then only after Oblivion (comic story) would the first short stories star appearing. That's just my take though. Master of Spiders ☎ 05:00, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with all of this but the final part. It's clear in Prisoners of Time that this is the first time 8 has seen Grace since the film, and in The Fallen she doesn't mention anything about when she last saw him, and seems quite comfortable around him. Totem and Model Train Set are also set very early, as 8 is overcoming the mistakes of his past life, which is a theme not present in the early comics.

I think it would be a better fit if the post-oblivion comics came after Charley leaves, as in the comic with Frobisher (I forget the name, despite reading it on monday), he doesn't mention that the person that he's lost was Izzy, and could quite easily be Charley and C'rizz. The open ending for Destrii wouldn't have to fit into the "gap years" then either. --Revan\Talk 17:44, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

a)The problem is that the Doctor mentions that he's going to travel to Egypt with Izzy, but Izzy leaves, then the Doctor mopes about a companion leaving, then goes to Egypt. If you want a Comic gap, the best bet would be somewhere between The Power of Thoueris! and Bad Blood (comic story).

b)There's still the problem of The Glorious Dead explicitly being only a few months after The TV Movie. And Totem takes place over approximately nine months. There was a actually a discussion on Totem some time ago, where it was shown that the Doctor in Totem is never actually identified, as well as certain "deductions" being false. Sadly, the result was "Oh, but that would mean changing various articles!" and some racist remarks... Due o the "few months" comment, Totem's length, Totem would have to come after Oblivion (comic story).

c)The Grace thing is true, but Prisoners of Time and The Fallen would both have to go very early in Eight's timeline. Prisoners of Time would have to follow on very soon after Bounty (audio story).

d)The one thing sometimes mentioned is that after Interference - Book Two the Doctor has no companions with him, which is the same situation at the beginning of The Blue Angel, and stories may possibly be placed here. Master of Spiders ☎ 18:03, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

In Shada (audio story), Neverland (audio story) and Zagreus (audio story) Romana is very clearly and obviously the same incarnation she was when she appeared in Warriors' Gate (TV story). She is also this incarnation when she first appears in the Eighth Doctor Adventure novels. However, during the War Arc, she regenerates from this incarnation into her third incarnation. Thus, the Charley/C'rizz audios need to come before she regenerates, but clearly do not fit into the gap between The Eight Doctors and Vampire Science. Master of Spiders ☎ 18:09, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily, as the Doctor could just be visiting Gallifrey at an earlier point, like he does in The Eighth Doctors. I've moved the Charley stuff to after TGC because of the "years" comment you mentioned, and that they physically couldn't have travelled for 3 years if it was within the 3 year gap. --Revan\Talk 18:12, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Changes

I see someone has placed the Charley stuff as "uncertain". Re-reading this, as well as peoples' comments on other pages, shows that this whole Theoretical Timeline has problems.

What someone pointed out was that the Eighth Doctor and Romana II meet for the first time in [[[Shada (audio story)]] and Neverland (audio story). Possibly in The Shadows of Avalon as well, but I'll have to check. It is established in The Glorious Dead that the Doctor Who Magazine Eighth Doctor is just one of several Eighth Doctors in different universes. Crucially, in The Flood (comic story), which was originally supposed to feature the regeneration scene, we only see DWM Comic companions(as well as Grace Holloway, and none from any other medium. The Council of Eight arc in the Eighth Doctor Adventures shows us again that EDA Eighth Doctor is just one of several Eighth Doctors in different universes. And again in The Gallifrey Chronicles, the Eight Doctor's companions are listed. These feature the EDA companions. and none from any other medium. Zagreus (audio story) meanwhile explicitly states that, at least, Zagreus (audio story), Oblivion (comic story), and The Adventuress of Henrietta Street take place in three separate universes. The Night of the Doctor (TV story) sees the Eighth Doctor list his Big Finish Doctor Who audio stories companions, and none from any other medium.

Then there are the inherent problems. Such as War of the Daleks and Terror Firma (audio story). Legacy of the Daleks and An Earthly Child/Relative Dimensions. The Glorious Dead and The Eight Doctors (novel) and Mastermind (audio story). The Dying Days and Minuet in Hell (audio story). While the desire to place all the Eighth Doctor's adventures into a single coherent timeline is a good idea, and one I've taken part in myself, the reality is that no matter how you try and do it, there are always going to be major problems. Unlike the other Doctors where you at least have their television episodes as a foundation to work with, the Eighth Doctor just has(or had) The TV Movie, and everything comes after that. We can place the DWM Comic Stories into a coherent continuity, we can place the books(as well as the Radio Times strips and Earth and Beyond) into a coherent continuity, and we can place the Big Finish stories(as well as Enemy Aliens) into a coherent continuity. But trying to merge all three continuities into a single coherent continuity is impossible. You can achieve timelines that are much better thought out, better researched, and more sensible than others. But there will always be problems.Master of Spiders ☎ 08:43, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Timelines(plural)

I'm reading through old magazines, and came across the Doctor Who Magazine Special Edition The Complete Eighth Doctor (released September 2003). Even here, before Zagreus (audio story) they clearly take the "three separate universes" idea, rather than trying to cram it all together. Basically, as they were up to September 2003, according to Doctor Who Magazine.(Note: this is obviously over ten years ago, various things like Zagreus (audio story), Wolfsbane (novel), Living Legend, Fear Itself (novel), Terror Firma (audio story) etc. had yet to be released. There is also no mention of the Radio Times comic strips. However, there's also something interesting about the one timeline. Anyway.

Audios Eighth Doctor:

(Obviously this is before both Zagreus (audio story) and Living Legend, before the Divergent Universe arc, and before the reveal of Samson Griffin and Gemma Griffin.)

Books Eighth Doctor:

The Dying Days is placed after all the Eighth Doctor Adventures with the explanation "In The Dying Days the Doctor is much older than in Lungbarrow, so it would seem it's meant to be set at some point in the Eighth Doctor's future, long after the BBC Novels.

(This is again before things like Fear Itself (novel) and Wolfsbane (novel) were released.)

Comics Eighth Doctor:

Again, the whole Special Edition repeatedly makes it clear that these three Eighth Doctors each have their own personality, character etc. This predates the "Now I can think, now I can focus..." scene in Zagreus (audio story) by two months.Of note, is that the same people who made this Special also make the Eighth Doctor comic stories in Doctor Who Magazine. As noted several times, clearly the Eighth Doctor adventures from Big Finish Productions were made with the same understanding. And the Eighth Doctor Adventure novels followed on directly from The TV Movie, even though Endgame (DWM comic story) had already done just that, several months earlier. The Seventh Doctor Doctor Who Magazine comic strip Ground Zero had already pretty definitively separated the comics and books continuities even before the first post-The TV Movie Eighth Doctor story appeared in any medium. And it's clear that the Big Finish Doctor Who audio stories didn't take what had happened in the books into account. Just as one example Colditz (audio story) seems fly in the face of the Virgin New Adventures. A direct quote from Big Finish Productions head honcho of the time Gary Russell is "The majority of our listeners haven't read the books, so that goes out the window. I don't give a damn about what happened in the New Adventures ".(Of course, those two examples are both clearly the Seventh Doctor rather than the Eighth Doctor, but the point still stands.)

In short, to summarise, it is clear that the three main Eighth Doctor ranges, the Big Finish Doctor Who audio stories, the Doctor Who Magazine comic stories, and the BBC Books each understood that they were three totally separate continuities, and this "Theory:Timeline", while done out of a genuine desire to improve this wiki and come up with a greater understanding, is actually contrary to what the people who made the stories actually felt and believed. Master of Spiders ☎ 20:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

There isn't an Interference gap

There's not a big gap between Interference and The Blue Angel. It's completely artificial. Could someone move the stories in this "gap" elsewhere? --Pluto2 (talk) 05:15, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

Technically correct: the gap isn’t between Interference and The Blue Angel, it’s between the “What Happened on Earth” and “Foreman’s World” narratives of Interference. From Interference (novel)#Notes:
  • It is left unclear how much time has passed between the "What Happened on Earth" and "Foreman's World" sections of the book. For instance, when I.M. Foreman asks the Eighth Doctor what happened to Compassion, he says, "That's not important now. If I told you what happened next, we’d be here all week." Although Miles' short story Toy Story confirmed that Compassion and Fitz were in the TARDIS during the Doctor's visit with Foreman, it is still left ambiguous as to how much time has passed or how Compassion came to join the TARDIS team. Some fans have placed the Eighth Doctor's adventures with Charley Pollard in the Big Finish Main Range into this gap in the timeline.[1]
I think there’s nothing wrong with placing stories in this gap. Namely, I believe that it’s the only place that makes sense for Big Finish’s Main Range material, which references Sam Jones and takes place before Romana II regenerates into Romana III around the time of The Shadows of Avalon and Intervention Earth. – N8 ☎ 16:23, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

Building on that comment about Romana II: The Ancestor Cell, which features the Eighth Doctor traveling with Fitz and Compassion, specifically mentions the Etra Prime incident from The Apocalypse Element, during which the Doctor is traveling with Charley. Since this regards Gallifreyan history, the Protocols of Linearity are in full effect, so there’s no possibility of . (Stephen Cole, who wrote both stories, also built in some clear character notes indicating that Romana II in the audio will one day become Romana III in the novel.) So the Charley adventures need to have happened before The Ancestor Cell, either during the oft-mentioned three-year gap in the early EDAs (more-or-less debunked by the above discussion) or between the parts of Interference. I’ll be implementing these changes into the page, pending any protest. – N8 ☎ 23:35, August 5, 2019 (UTC)

I would object to this brand of thinking. For starters, The Apocalypse Element is a Sixth Doctor story, and it is difficult to believe how his tenure effects the Eighth Doctor, at least for me, so I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if it turns out I am. More pressingly is that the First Law of Time is frequently violated by Renegade Time Lords; the page even has a whole section dedicated to the amount of times the Doctor has disobeyed it. In all honesty, the Eighth Doctor's timeline is so complicated due to he nature of his tenure being without a television series to anchor it down, that it's easier to just leave them in sections, unless the Doctor himself specifically says otherwise, like if he mentions Charley or Izzy while in the company of Fitz.BananaClownMan ☎ 12:19, August 6, 2019 (UTC)
I generally disagree about the First Law of Time being “frequently” violated, as most stories which feature violations are very explicit about them; and while arguments based on “easiness” might be important for in-universe pages, this is a Theory page, so I don’t see why it should need apply! But you’re quite right about The Apocalypse Element; that was my error. I’ve gone back through my original notes and identified what originally convinced me: the short story Bafflement and Devotion. In it, the Doctor speculates that Iris Wildthyme could be a creation of Faction Paradox, which means it must have taken place before their erasure from time in The Ancestor Cell; at the same time, however, he remembers The Stones of Venice. There’s no specific mention of companions, but with the timeline the way it is... In any case, the current placement of that one story at the very least is clearly inadequate. – N8 ☎ 16:02, August 20, 2019 (UTC)

The Foreman's World segment in Interference Book 1 establishes that the "What Happened on Earth" Sequence and Sam's departure occurred a few months ago in the Doctor's personal timeline. So he may well have travelled alone without Fitz or Compassion in the interim, but only for a few months and the audios certainly can’t fit in that gap. SarahJaneFan ☎ 18:00, November 3, 2019 (UTC)

The End of the Beginning

Am I remembering correctly that even though the Fifth Doctor remembers meeting Charley during The Light at the End, Charley acts as though she isn't certain what he means. I may need to relisten to be certain but, while we can agree this is early Charley (pre-C'rizz), my memory is telling me that Charley doesn't remember The Light at the End. I always assumed companions remember multi-Doctor events but Doctors didn't. The Doctors' timeline being out of sync shouldn't affect the companions, right? So, if that's correct, that wouldn't excuse Charley's response. Feel free to tell me I've misremembered. TheFartyDoctor Talk 15:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

The events of The Light at the End were reverted by the First Doctor in the climax, meaning that the events never really happened, but the Doctors retain a small subconscious memory of them, enough for them to check up on Bob Dovie. BananaClownMan 01:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Peladon

Do we know for sure that his appearance in Peladon is after Stranded? Is there anything to rule it out being between X and the Daleks and The White Room? Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 21:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Nothing to rule it out, but surely it seems better out of the way of that plot. It doesn’t exactly fit comfortably either which way in terms of putting a heading in. It’s definitely not during Dark Eyes 3 however. Honestly, it could even be during Stranded 3 at a push. SarahJaneFan ☎ 22:11, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
If we've got no reason to think it's post-Stranded, shouldn't we put it during Dark Eyes given that the Peladon cover has him with his shorter Dark Eyes hair rather than the longer hair he's had since Doom Coalition? Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 22:27, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Time War

I'm not sure as to the present ordering to the Time War stories. Starship of Theseus is very much framed in story as the Eighth Doctor's first direct encounter with the War, despite this, Mary's Story, the War Master 3 and 4 boxsets and several other stories in which Eight is actively trying to help on the outskirts of the war or even crossing paths with the war itself. Which surely would make more sense being placed after Restoration of the Daleks, where Bliss encourages him to take a more active role in helping. Especially since Time War stories placed after EDTW also imply he's still running from the War proper, just helping where he can.

Surely (generally) going TLV -> An Ocean of Sawdust -> EDTW -> Misc TW Stories -> WM3 -> WM4 would make more sense than TLV -> Ocean of Sawdust -> Misc TW Stories -> WM3 -> EDTW -> WM4.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen all the stories in question so there may be something in them that indicates otherwise. IRegisteredForTimelines ☎ 06:49, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The Time War stories are hard to place due to the very nature of the Time War being that it constantly retcons itself. But, if you think this timeline is more factual, and can edit it to have as few inconsistencies as possible, then go foe it. Worse case someone will come along and rearrange it again.BananaClownMan ☎ 09:18, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
That seems logical. I believe over on the Divergent Universe forum John Dorney has stated his intent that the first episode of EDTW is the Doctor's first exposure to the conflict. I'll see if I can find his exact quote. So there's an element of authorial intent backing putting EDTW before the miscellaneous Time War tie-ins & WM. SherlockTheII ☎ 11:22, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Follow up! The quotes were easier to find than I thought they would be. Here's John Dorney's personal take on Starship of Theseus being Eight's first exposure to the War: https://notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/post/241873/thread
Dorney subsequently elaborated a bit in a different thread clarifying you probably can place Time War stories before Starship, due to the whole nature of the Time War, but he doesn't see why you would: https://notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/post/242919/thread
So that's one author backing EDTW coming before other miscellaneous Time War stories for Eight. I don't think any of the other writers have weighed in on the matter. It's obviously not be taken as gospel (as writers can make mistakes), but I think gives your suggestion more weight. SherlockTheII ☎ 11:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
The main issue that comes to mind for me is I struggle to see how All Hands on Deck and The Shoreditch Intervention are going to take place after Restoration of the Daleks considering the cliffhanger of that story. But I guess until that particular cliffhanger is resolved there’s no way to know how it is supposed to line up.
Ultimately I think we should have the 8TW audios first, followed by the misc Time War audios, although some of the early short stories should remain before Starship under the assumption that they’ve been retconned in. For example in Natural Regression he is still using his wooden Dark Eyes sonic which gets destroyed in 8TW1 then replaced with the version he uses in NOTD. I think it’s easier if the stuff released before 8TW1 by bbc books just falls in the retconned re-Starship gap with everything else taking place afterwards. SarahJaneFan ☎ 21:32, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The Pictures of Josephine Day

Something that came to mind is the possibility that the Doctor's adventures with Josie Day could take place after the BBC Eighth Doctor Adventures, since it's been retroactivly shown via We Can't Stop What's Coming that he began wearing his Night of the Doctor clothes just after the Eighth Doctor Adventures series, which can also be seen as the "intense period in his life" that the bio for the comic series mentions.BananaClownMan ☎ 04:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

While I love the adaptability of shifting around mini-eras based on things like that, I don't fully agree with the reasoning. While We Can't Stop What's Coming does show him with that outfit/hairstyle, we... also don't have him in the appearance at any other point in the fairly massive gap between that period and all these other TLV/Time War era stories where he consistently wears it: it's easier to assume that's a one-off quirk of that story, especially given that it's just what the illustration depicts without any description in-story. While I agree that the entirety of the EDAs can count as an "intense period in his life", those last few novels aren't part of any particularly intense story arc. While it's certainly a vague part of the Doctor's life, it's probably best for us to keep it after the current BF material with Liv and Helen, especially as that's where it seems he starts taking on the Night appearance for the first time. I'm not completely shutting down the move, but I feel we'd need a bit more concrete evidence in favour of it. MalkHeartsStories ☎ 05:02, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it was just a random musing that came to mind. Thinking about it, his sonic screwdriver module does lean more towards after the audio anthologies. BananaClownMan ☎ 05:50, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
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