Talk:The Leader

Third?

How do we know for sure this is the third Doctor from Inferno Earth?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  19:20: Tue 17 Dec 2013

In "TimeWyrm: Revelation", it is established the leader on Inferno Earth was one of the faces offered to the second Doctor at his trial86.147.101.255^{talk to me} 20:16, September 28, 2014 (UTC)

The Doctor? Or just another human?

For the Leader's background, we have two different accounts:

• Paul Cornell's Timewyrn: Revelation, which establishes that the Leader's face is one of those that were offered to the Doctor at his trial, and therefore heavily implies that the Leader is the Inferno universe's Doctor.
• Robert Mammone's I, Alastair, which explores the Leader's character more in depth, and beyond references to "rumours" of him living forever, Mammone intended to write him as human. "Another in a long line of very human tyrants", as he describes him.

Naturally, this has led to a lot of conjecture when trying to reconcile these two accounts. It appears headcanon has been used to fill in the gaps. Two claims in particular stuck out to me, which both cite I, Alastair as the source. One says that the Leader's TARDIS materialised in 1930s Britain. Yet, the novel mentions nothing of the TARDIS. Similarly, this article also claims that the Leader "could no longer regenerate, as the Time Lords had taken this ability from him". Yet, if Mammone wrote the novel with the idea that the Leader was human, then does it actually say "the Doctor" had lost his ability to regenerate and the Time Lords took it from him? Also mentioned are a reference to the Leader's alien biology and great age, though as far as I can tell nothing about the Leader being an alien is mentioned, simply references to rumours of "living forever" and the ability to extend his life through a "miraculous procedure". This isn't necessarily a confirmation that the Leader would be the Doctor, as such claims are typical of real life cult of personalities, and that's how Mammone stated he intended it. We know this not just because of Mammone's later statements, but evidence in the writing stating how the Leader's "age had caught up", a contrast with most accounts describing the Doctor ageing at a much slower rate than humans.

With Cornell's Timewyrn: Revelation account, Cornell obviously intended the Leader to be an alternate Doctor, but as a result, this article seems to have become a confusing mish-mash trying to combine to completely different accounts of the Leader. This article is written with the Cornell interpretation of the Leader in mind, but in doing so, has disregarded Mammone's interpretation and relegated it to a small mention in the behind the scenes section. The two sources are also quite different. Whereas in Timewyrn: Revelation, the Leader and his face is merely mentioned in a line of conversation the Doctor has, I, Alastair goes into much more detail regarding the Leader as a character.

Keep in mind, Timewyrn: Revelation doesn't actually confirm that the Leader is an alternate Doctor, just that he happens to resemble a potential face the Doctor could have chosen. In that novel, the Doctor notes the resemblance, and does wonder of his place in that universe, but the actual connection is not stated. Again, it is quite obvious what Cornell intended, but it does not seem right for this article to acknowledge Cornell's intentions while essentially ignoring Mammone's. At the very least, an assumption that the Leader is an alternate Doctor can still be made, given that Cornell's source came first, but we should absolutely remove the spurious claims made in the article regarding I, Alastair account of the Leader. BlueSupergiant ☎ 16:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely sounds like things have gotten very tangled-up. I don't think it's inappropriate to cite the idea of him being a Doctor to Timewyrm - the "implication" in this case is just an artistic way of conveying a plot point, not intended as actually unclear, as you say. But we should treat this as two conflicting accounts, and thoroughly rewrite the page. Since his species is in doubt, the |species= field in the infobox should be left blank. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 18:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it is just as presumptuous to assert that I, Alastair identifies the Leader as human; this is never explicitly stated in the book and there are subtle hints he is not entirely human. There is nothing inherently contradictory between Timwyrm and I, Alastair. Mammone did say in an interview that he had forgotten about the suggestion the Leader may be the Doctor's counterpart but interviews about works cannot be used to make assertions about the text; otherwise one might as well include Nicholas Courtney's statement in the DVD commentary for Inferno that he idea he had was that the Brigade Leader had fought a duel with someone; this was later completely contradicted by The Schizoid Earth. Writers sometimes even change their minds about their works which were not covered in the original text contradicting interviews they gave. Mammone's statement about the Leader's species belongs in the "behind the scenes" section, not in the main body, which should remain as vague as I, Alastair itself and stick to the suggestions actually made in the works themselves. 92.9.2.202^{talk to me} 23:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the relevant precedent is the number of Hartnell-era stories which were written under the assumption that he'd built the TARDIS and was a human being. A lot of these references are vague enough that they can be retrofitted into modern lore (at worst by just implying that he's lying, which some post-Time-Lord-lore stories genuinely assert), but in recent years the Wiki has moved away from a one-size-fits-all mentality, and towards covering such references in the spirit in which they were written. If I, Alastair mostly seems to be doing its own thing and was in fact written to do its own thing, we should cover it primarily as its own thing — though of course, neither should we erase the ambiguities in the text altogether.

Speaking of which, could we see some quotes? We've seen people arguing that the idea that he's immortal is flagged in the text as propaganda, whereas you seem to be implying that no such disclaimers exist. I think this discussion would have better chances of getting somewhere if the relevant quotes could be posted here directly. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:39, 30 August 2023 (UTC)