Howling:Time travel theory
I've been having a "discussion" with an IP about time travel. They don't understand my theory. Originally the post was about River and how River didn't know Rory in Series 5, even though they'll both appear in series 6 and most probably meet, which is set before River meets the Doctor at the end of the Big Bang. My theory was that, unless Rory was absent from series 6 when River appears, River had the series 6 adventures before she returned to the wedding, which would explain why can know of Rory in series 6. I want to know who understands the theory as one IP claims that it is impossible.
The events follow as such:
- The Doctor resets the universe making himself non existent in the future of that time-line.
- Rory and Amy are returned to their wedding day, River to wherever she would be in the future.
- Amy remembers the Doctor and brings him and the TARDIS back. This creates a new future (a split time-line) where the Doctor exists.
- The Doctor, Amy and Rory then travel to the future where the Doctor exists and pick up River.
- The four live through the events of series six, which is how River wouldn't know Rory in the Pandorica Opens, but would have met him by the events of series 6.
- From the future, they travel back to the wedding and drop River off with her diary.
- The diary's writing would disappear as at that point in the time-line, Amy had not remembered the Doctor, so the time-line had a future in which the Doctor did not exist. This is the same as in City of the Daleks where Amy was beginning to disappear since she came from a future that did not exist at that point in the time line.
- Amy remembers which brings us back to point three, and the paradoxical cycle begins again.
Have a look here for and explanation of how the split time-line basically works.
- Here's a break down of the individual time-lines:
- Amy and Rory's timeline:
- Return to wedding
- Amy remembers
- Pick up River and they live through series 6
- Drop River off at the wedding and leave
- River's timeline:
- River is returned to the far future
- Just as happens to Jennifer in Back to the Future, the time-line changes around River when Amy remembers
- The Doctor, Amy and Rory pick up River and live through series 6
- River is dropped off at the wedding. Her book looses it's writing, as the future it came from does not exist because the course the timeline is on will not lead to that future
- River gives Amy the diary to remember, causing the future to change around her past self, bringing us back to point 2.
- River gets her diary back from the newly brought back Doctor and warns him of the series 6 events.
- The Doctor's timeline:
- The Doctor causes himself not to exist
- Amy remembers him and brings him back
- River warns him of the series 6 events
- He, Amy and Rory pick up River from the future and they live through series 6.
- Knowing River caused his re-existence as he knew she had given Amy her diary, he drops her off so she can give Amy the diary and cause him to re-exist, bringing us back to point number 2.
Now, I'd like the opinions of others about this theory. --The Thirteenth Doctor 21:36, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Ok.. First of all i would like to point out that i'm only familiar with the revived series of Doctor Who, so i'm not a real expert. But regarding the time travel laws, i see (from what i've watched so far) that these laws are somehow left vague and partly unexplained, which leaves it to the writers to add or alter some aspects of those laws, on condition that they give us an explanation. The main point you're arguing about is whether it is possible for the future doctor to travel back to a timeline in which he never existed. I think Moffat can choose either way and he can find a good explanation for both. We can speculate but anything is possible...
Personally i disagree with the Thirteenth for 2 reasons:
1. After Amy brings back the doctor, everything in the universe is put into place. Crossing your own timeline and changing things is now forbidden like before. The doctor can't change his own past without consequences. He did all the paradoxes in "The Big Bang" because the universe was torn apart and rules didnt apply anymore. But in series 6 everything is normal again.
2. At the wedding, the doctor didnt exist in the past, present or future. When Amy brought him back, the timeline in which the doctor didnt exist doesnt exist anymore.. so the doctor can't travel back in time to something that isnt there anymore. If he now travels back to the wedding, the doctor exists and River's book is full not empty because all the adventures they had are still there.
3. This point has nothing to do with time travel laws, and it's just a speculation from my side. But i think in Series 6, River won't be a companion to the doctor. She will be on the other side. Remember what she said to the doctor? "U'll soon find out who i am and that's when everything changes". What i understood from that sentence that earlier in her timeline (series 6) we will see another side of River, before she got that close to the doctor. She might be working against the doctor, so it is unlikely that he'll pick her up and drop her at the wedding.63.216.120.87 22:31, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
- About the paradoxes, they are allowed to occur, just not to the level of "Father's Day". In that instance, Rose's interference gave no reason for her past self to go back in time again and save her father as he was already saved. This instance is more like River's screwdriver; the Doctor only gave her his screwdriver, because his past self knew he gave her his screwdriver as she had it when he was in the library. I can see where you're coming from with point 2. Though, that really does depend on the whole "cracks" debate; does being erased from existence cause events to change? Personally, I don't think so or the whole cause of the Crash of the Byzantium goes out of the window. If the physicality changed then the crash would have been negated. This must mean that the events which happened still existed in the same time-line. As for River being on the other side, I can see that happening, yes, but by the end of it she does seem to really care for him, so my guess is even if she starts out bad in series 6, he'll change her. But thanks for giving your input. The Thirteenth Doctor 22:53, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
- haha...People actually get how wrong you are...You can't say people who agree with the flawed model understands it...That's just being irrational...They would be misunderstanding with you...This new model you have, since every time you say it you depict a slightly different one, reveals the following flaws:
- The Doctor isn't time travelling in your stuff, he's travelling across possibilities...63 raised a good point and you misunderstood it...Your depiction of a forked timeline doesn't apply here because your forked timeline implies the Doctor must be able to repeatedly not exist before Amy's wedding. A Doctor who exists in the past and future travelled to a different timeline where he didn't exist in the past, he is not travelling on the same timeline! The show didn't depict a forked timeline, it depicted 2 timelines and the TARDIS didn't travel across the timelines, it was recreated/brought into existence in the 2nd timeline after being destroyed in one. You are saying the Doctor from a timeline where he exists can travel to a timeline where he doesn't, this is essentially travelling across parallel universes and not just time travel where the TARDIS travelled on the same timeline. The great point 63 raised is that on the timeline, the Doctor existed before the wedding just as much as he existed after it...if it's a forked timeline, he wouldn't exist before the wedding, he would only come into existence afterward.
- Neither would the texts be gone, not because of some unknown properties of cracks, but because the book would be a book from the future unaffected by the past before the wedding day, so all of the texts would stay on...which is contrary to what was shown on screen
- the forked timeline requires the Doctor to essentially be born on the wedding day, since the Doctor existing before that point would mean a "ll"-shaped or "X"-shaped timeine rather than a "Y"-shaped one...this contradicts with River Song/Rory knowing the Doctor as shown on screen
- 63, Thirteenth is one-tenth of a heavily damaged single-cell organism compared to you....Thirteenth, your entire ugly irrational stuff relies on the Doctor travelling to a point that doesn't exist on his timeline if he exists...to be honest, I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone to misunderstand it with you...--203.168.176.42 02:10, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
In series 6, if the doctor travels back to the wedding and before the wedding he'll be there with Amy.. he wont have to bring himself back anymore!94.187.77.178 11:38, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
Here is your problem:
You say the timeline looks like this
/C
/
O A B /
\
\
\D
but in this timeline, the Doctor has to either exist from O to B or not exist from O to B, in other words, the Doctor's personal timeline can only be BC or BD, and cannot start at any point before B. The reason behind it is that OB must be in the same state, if it isn't, then there are two timelines in its place. You cannot fit in 2 histories on the same timeline.
Now look at a more complicated model which you may be thinking but you couldn't conceptualize it yourself,
\O1 /C
\ /
\ A B /
/ \
/ \
/O2 \D
where O1C represents the existence state and O2D represents the inexistence state, and AB is the part where 2 timeline converge. This is probably what you want to say in that O1A and O2A represents respective histories from the timeline with the Doctor's existence and without his existence, and AB represents Big Bang 2 to Amy's wedding. Big problem here: AB can't exist. Why? It's not just the fact that AB are in mixed states, but the fact that O1B <> O2B implies that there are 2 separate timelines in place of AB...simply put, at point A, the timeline is built upon O1 or O2, so the complete timeline is O1C and O2D...that means even if Doctor from C travels to point A, he is on the timeline O1C and not O2D, the opposite also apply for Doctor from D. Since O1A and O2A are different, AB cannot be simply one timeline. As A is built either on O1 or O2, and leads respectively either C or D, point A from O1 would have a different history from point A from O2, therefore, they would be 2 separate points. This is supported on screen that the TARDIS' explosion would have never happened in the new timeline. For the Doctor from C to have adventures with River then travel to any point in O2B would be ridiculous in that O2B excludes all possibilities where the Doctor exists. So in actual fact the timeline looks like this:
\O1 /C
\ /
\ A1 B1 /
/ A2 B2 \
/ \
/O2 \D
A1B1 and A2B2 must be mutually exclusive. In other words, making it neater:
O1 A1 B1 C
X
O2 A2 B2 D
the point X or B1 or B2 is where the accident occured that the Doctor crosses the timeline due to Amy's wedding that brought the timeine O1C to existence....However, the current timeline that the Doctor is on is O1C, which excludes all possibilities of his inexistence states on the timeline, and therefore, O1C does not and cannot overlap O2D. To say that the Doctor can travel from a point on O1C to a point on O2D is to say that the TARDIS can travel across possibilities, simply put, it is similar to saying that when the Doctor is faced with a non-life-threatening situation, if he makes the wrong choice, he can use the TARDIS to travel to a future on the timeline where he made the right choice (not simply undoing the mistake but actually travelling to a potential future that contradicts with the current one). --222.166.181.59 06:50, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
