Talk:War in Heaven/Archive 1

I'm going to be monkeying about with this article a bit later tonight, but I wonder if there's any chance we could rename it?

It just doesn't seem very descriptive or accurate. Certainly characters involved call it 'the war', but characters from the Nineteen-Forties call WWII 'the war'.

Changing it to "The War in Heaven" wouldn't help much either as there're two other Time Wars in continuity to which that could equally apply.

At one point in The Book of the War, these events are referred to as "The Second War in Heaven". I suggest we go with that, or (and I love this option, but understand others might find it too reconciliatory) "The Second Great Time War".--Richard Jones 17:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"The Second Great Time War" seems like a good idea to me. "The Second War in Heaven" seems a bit too flowery for my tastes.

This might be an obvious question, but which one was the "First Great Time War"? We might need to rename that one to fit with this naming scheme if we go along with it. -<Azes13 22:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)>-

The First's a little harder to pin down.

In The Book of the War then just the Yssgaroth/Great Vampire conflict seems to be what's meant by the 'First War in Heaven', but in the wider context of Doctor Who then it would have to be something more like that particular dust-up considered alongside the Time War described in Sky Pirates! and The Infinity Doctors - a series of related wars that undid themselves as soon as they were won - all the conflicts that the Time Lords had to go through to establish their version of history.

Pruning out the thingies from outside (like the Yssgaroth/Great Vampires), the thingies so different they couldn't operate in the same sort of reality (like the Charron) and the thingies that might have otherwise been the universe's Lords of Time if Gallifrey hadn't got there first (like the Ferutu). --Richard Jones 22:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, those all seem like minor conflicts (rather then Great Time Wars). Still, I haven't read any of the sources for the wars (except for The Pit, but I forget most of it), so I suppose I shouldn't really judge whether those are Great Wars or not.

In any case, you might want to see if anyone else has any ideas before doing the name change. -<Azes13 23:44, 26 November 2007 (UTC)>-

Thought I'd jump in (I, according to the history created the original article). So...'The War' ie the future war with the Time Lords and the Enemy is the same War in Heaven...correct? I was a little fuzzy on this (and despite having The Book of the War on my shelf haven't got around to deciphering the readinging between the lines (aside from timeship=TARDIS) etc.

The Infinity Doctors mentions Time Wars so there were more than one.

On the first war in heaven, what about whichever war the N-Forms (seen in Damaged Goods and mentioned in So Vile a Sin) is that from the Great Vampire war or another war?

We really need a list or timeline of Gallifrey/Time Lord's wars so we can place all these things as to when they happened (actually that would be tricky) at least when they happened in relation to each other.

Just on side note about the Faction Paradox in the various spinoffs it's called Faction Paradox (the emphasis being split between Faction and Paradox) while in the EDAs when it's mentioned its said as an inclusive name as the Faction Paradox, just wondering how we stand referring to them/it. I've always used 'the Faction Paradox' as I always thought of them as a group/organisation like 'the company' etc. While Faction Paradox suggests (and is I think in the FP novels/audios) it is a Faction : Paradox...? --Tangerineduel 03:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the The Faction Paradox/Faction Paradox naming thing isn't a too much of a worry. In the audios they refer to themselves both with and without the 'the' all the time. Going by context then it sounds like they wheel out the 'the' when they want to sound a bit more arcance and esoteric. Which is often.

The Houses do the same thing, sometimes they'll call themselves House X, sometimes the The House X and sometimes The House of X.

Time Lord war-wise, I think it'd run something like this...

Various Imperial Wars - fought in the Pythia's time.

The Great Vampire/Yssgaroth War - began the day that the web of time was established.

The Time Wars - The overlapping and self-annulling series of conflicts described in Sky Pirates! and The Infinity Doctors. They took place in the generation after Rassilion, and are going to be the ones it's tricky to find a specific-sounding name for.

The Second War in Heaven/The War - The campaign against The Enemy, that never actually happens but causes more trouble than most things which do.

The Last Great Time War - That's all folks.

Can't remember off the top of my head whether it was the Vampire War or the Early Time Wars which saw the first deployment of N-Forms, but three of them were used during the Lethean Campaign as part of the war with the Enemy, and according to the 2006 annual they were put into service for the Last Great Time War too.

This is so addictive, isn't it? --Richard Jones 08:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Needless to say, much of this is moot since FP has been spun off into its own wiki, but I'd like to point out that Tangerineduel is incorrect when he (or she?) says that Faction Paradox is always called "the Faction Paradox" in their EDA appearances. In fact, they're generally called either "Faction Paradox" or "the Faction". —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 01:22, July 14, 2012 (UTC)

Naming/Name Changes

Just thought I'd re-kick the naming dicussion (and put it under something so we don't end up with 6+:. So we've got:

• Second War in Heaven

or

• Second Great Time War

I think to make it 'less flowery' we drop the 'The' from Second War in Heaven (should we go with that). Also, the Second Great Time War, to me suggests a link (sort of) to the Last Great Time War (which it's not...), so I'm for Second War in Heaven, and as to what the first war is, we can burn that bridge when we come it it. --Tangerineduel 04:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, "the Second Great Time War" just suggests to me that it was Great (which it seemed to be), that it was a Time War (which definitely was) and that it was the Second (which might or might not be true). In any case, since both wars were involving the Time lords I think that might be reason enough to link them. -<Azes13 14:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)>-

The problem is that what makes "the Second Great Time War" so appealing is also what probably makes it wrong - how neatly it fits with the other title. It's hugely pleasing, but it's a bit of an after-the-fact imposition of a naming convention from NewWho on the EDAs.

And with the ink in the water about the 'numbering' of the Early Time Wars and the Great Vampire War then I've come round to going with "Second War in Heaven", just because it's the most specific thing that it ever gets called in-universe.

What I'd suggest though is that the article opens with a little paragraph of contextualisation. Something like the following...

--Richard Jones 18:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The Second War in Heaven is the most specific name available for the conflict usually referred to by its participants as simply "The War". The First War in Heaven was considered have been the hostilities between the Time Lords and the Great Vampires. It is not known why the early Time Wars which occured in the period between these 'Wars in Heaven' escaped such grandiose appelation.

Well I'm happy with "The Second War in Heaven" (with or without the The), as many things to do with the War have the in the title (The Remote, The Cold, The Slaughterhouse) we may as well continue the prolific use and call use a the in the title. --Tangerineduel 12:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Rename / Article name

Now that we've excised the Faction Paradox (series) sources from the article there exists the issue of the article's name. From the above discussion it suggests that the name came from The Book of the War, now that that's not a source on this wiki, should we revert to calling the page The War? Or is there another in-universe name that we've missed, or is "Second War in Heaven" actually used in a DWU text? --Tangerineduel / talk 16:25, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

"The War with the Enemy" seems most apt. That distinguishes it from the war with the Great Vampires/Yssgaroth and the Last Great Time War (which had a named enemy, the Daleks), and of course from the Sontaran invasion and the like. -- Rowan Earthwood ^{talk to me} 16:00, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

It's not really about aptness, it's about real world sources. Characters consistently refer to "The War", but I'm not sure abour "The War with the Enemy". --Tangerineduel / talk 14:51, March 17, 2013 (UTC)