Talk:The War Chief

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War Games novelisation

I'm not seeing any reference by the War Chief to him and the Doctor being the only ones to have stolen TARDISes. The only comment on the subject I can see is a section near the beginning of Chapter 10 where the Doctor exclaims "It's my TARDIS that you want. But surely you have one of your own?", to which the War Chief replies "No more mine than yours is really yours! We are both thieves, Doctor. Yes, I do have a TARDIS hidden away." Skteosk ☎ 08:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

The reference to there only being two time lords that have stolen a TARDIS is in a different novel. Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon, I think. LauraBatham ☎ 09:21, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I acknowledge that one's there. I removed a reference to a similar comment in Doctor Who and the War Games last night, only for someone to restore it. I removed it again this morning. Skteosk ☎ 10:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

War Games also references this fact. The quotes (both, remember, by the same man in the same book range) are these, with the relevant passages bolded — User:Skteosk, you cut your quote above off too early! Though it's quite an understandable oversight.

"There have been two stolen, you know."
The younger Time Lord didn't know. "By our enemies?"
"No. By Time Lords. They both became bored with this place. It was too peaceful for them, not enough happening." The old Keeper smiled to himself, as though remembering with some glee all the fuss when two TARDISes were stolen. "One of them nowadays calls himself 'the Doctor'. The other says he is 'the Master'."'Doctor Who and the Doomsday Weapon

"Now I understand," said the Doctor. "It's my TARDIS that you want. But surely you have one of your own?"
The War Chief smiled. "No more mine than yours is really yours. We are both thieves, Doctor. Yes, I do have a TARDIS hidden away. But are not two better than one? While I rest and enjoy the spoils of victory, you can patrol our empire. And I shall do the same for you."
"Our empire?"
"We shall rule the galaxy without fear of oppoisition," the War Chief said confidently. "For we shall be the only two who can travel through both space and time."'Doctor Who and the War Games

Note that the latter extract actually alters what the TV story said on this point: the TV script seems to suggest that the War Chief doesn't have a TARDIS of his own. It has room to assume that he had one when he ran away but later lost access to it, but it certainly doesn't highlight it. So this passage was a very deliberate addition Hulke made to the story when retelling it for the Target format.

DOCTOR: Now I understand. It's my Tardis that you're after, isn't it?
WAR CHIEF: Exactly! When we are in control, the machines I have brought with me will have expired. If we hold the only space time travel machine, we can rule our galaxy without fear of opposition.'The War Games

In any case, setting aside the tone issue in your previous message, I do want to thank you for your recent diligent work here, @Skteosk. This and previous talk page discussions have established that the idea that the War Chief became the Master does exist in valid sources, in the same way that such as ideas as the Doctor being a 49th century human does; but it's easy to get tunnel vision when one is defending a view that goes against the grain. The older, non-chronological version of the overview of the evidence for against really wasn't balanced enough, and while your edits in turn went too far in the other direction, I think the synthesis I tried to produce in my further edits last night is clearly superior to what was there before. [[User:Scrooge

MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] ⊕ 10:23, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I kind of get what you're going for here, but I still think it's a lot more ambiguous than "the Doctor and the War Chief are the only ones to have stolen TARDIses". Okay, the War Chief says "we shall be the only two who can travel through both space and time". But that means...what exactly? They're obviously not the only two Time Lords in existence, because the climax of the story involves a visit to a planet which is full of other Time Lords who can also travel through space and time. You could interpret it as meaning they're the only Time Lords to have left Gallifrey, but you could equally interpret it as simply meaning that they'll have an advantage over the War Lords which means they can easily take over from them. I think it leaves plenty of room for other Renegade Time Lords to exist in other galaxies or whatever. (Incidentally, I had another problem with half your signature not being present when I started editing. I've tried to put it back as I found it, apologies if I didn't succeed.) I see you've now edited it to reflect that, so fair enough. Skteosk ☎ 11:26, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Terror of the Autons

There's a huge glaring problem with saying the War Chief/Master situation is solved, especially when using Doctor Who and the Terror of the Autons as supporting evidence. The War Chief did not escape from justice in The War Games. The War Lord *had him killed* (even if later stories retcon this or revive him, this doesn't change the shooting and order beforehand). The quote "Already he had been behind several Interplanetary Wars, always disappearing from the scene before he could be brought to justice. If ever he were caught, his fate would I be far worse than the Doctor’s exile." has NOTHING to do with that plot point.

And the source Doctor Who and the Terror of the Autons (not talking about either version of The War Games) absolutely nowhere "established that the Doctor and the Master were the only two renegades ever to have run away from Gallifrey". At all. It is adding misinformation to readd that. It's false. It's made up. There's no establishment irrespective of the War Chief link.

If we want to split hairs about well, Time Lord monickers only came about later and that's why the War Chief has a different name. Then it would probably be worth pointing out the Master escaping a clear death scene wouldn't really be a thing until probably Ainley's time. Maybe there's isolated points in the 70s, but as a defining moment? Tybort ☎ 18:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

And it's really weird that Talk:The Master/Archive_7#Adding a section for the War Chief in the biography's conclusion appears to stem from this error. Why can I not identify the statement "the Doctor and the Master were the only two Time Lords ever to steal a TARDIS while summarising the events of The War Games in the same breath" anywhere in Terror of the Autons (originally attributed to Doomsday Weapon)? Not even in the interplanetary war part on pages 25 and 26. Tybort ☎ 18:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)