Howling:5 things to look for: finale Doctor

The Howling → 5 things to look for: finale Doctor

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This one's been mentioned all over fandom, and it's interesting enough to watch for.

The theory is that in the 2-part finale, the Doctor will go back to the first 11 episodes--and some of the scenes with the Doctor that we see in these first 11 episodes are actually the finale Doctor going back into his past.

Each of these has other explanations (although in FaS the only good explanation seems to be "serious production error"), but let me ignore those and just list the scenes and how the theory explains them.

• The Eleventh Hour: When little Amelia hears the TARDIS in the night, then it fades to grown-up Amy hearing the TARDIS in the night. This scene is juxtaposing finale-Doctor actually coming back to give Amelia a message (which he somehow gets her to forget until the time is right) and current-Doctor coming back to pick Amy up.
• The Doctor is recognised by the old lady at 28.55 who says "i know you, i have seen you before". The Doctor replies: "not me. Brand new face". Maybe at some point in the future he returns to this time period prior to this scene.
• The Beast Below: Why did Liz 10 know that the Doctor would do "the glass thing"? Because finale-Doctor came back earlier and put a glass on the ground. Liz 10 tried to figure out why anyone would do such a thing, which is how she figured out that there are no engines, and also how she figured out that he must have been the legendary Doctor. (Also, look at 12:40, where the current-Doctor sees a glass on the floor and seems to be puzzled about why it's there.)
• Victory of the Daleks: ??? (Yay, another excuse to watch it again.:))
• The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone: This is the one that got everyone started on the whole theory. The Doctor lost his jacket, and ran around without it. And then, in the scene where he tells Amy to remember what he told her when he was 7, he's wearing a jacket. And not even the same jacket; he wears the light one in TToA/FoS, but the dark one in this scene. And his sleeves are rolled up. And his interaction with Amy is much kinder than what we've seen in the first 5 episodes. And the significance of the "Time can be rewritten!" line is either that he's just started to plan out what he's going to do, or he's just realized that a future self of his is already running around doing so (and maybe that explains something odd he's seen--like the glass in TBB).
• The Lodger - The Doctor asks Amy to write on the back of the card for future references but then she finds the ring so she doesnt get round to writing it, So maybe it was the Doctor going back in time to write it himself.

So, why would the Doctor be running around through his own past like this? Either to fix what's broken, or to fix Amy so she can save the universe or avoid destroying it, or just to set things up that he's going to need for the big showdown.

Of course this last possibility is straight out of Moffat's first-ever Who work, The Curse of Fatal Death, so, if he actually does that one, I'd love to see a tiny throwaway reference. (I can't think of a good one--farting, referring to Amy's "etheric beam locators" being very firm, etc. would all be totally out of place. But there's a reason Moffat got the job instead of me.:)) --Falcotron 15:13, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I like it! And SM said he wanted to stories that actually used time travel effectively...RUMyMommy 17:38, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

One more thing (again, just forwarding someone else's idea, so don't give me credit):

Finale-Doctor knows how to land the TARDIS silently. It seems likely that, if Moffat is sending the Doctor back into the first 11 episodes, he's going to have to use that at some point to "sneak in" somewhere. Probably with someone who knows (or knows of) the Doctor but doesn't know he can land silently, like Churchill or Liz 10--or, even better, like himself, Amy, or River before River taught him. --Falcotron 02:41, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Another point: When TEH first aired, a few people pointed out that some of the pictures, dolls, etc. of the Raggedy Doctor weren't actually raggedy. --Falcotron 18:33, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

See, I've watched that episode and looked at the site, and I really can't see any "non-raggedy" Doctors. :S Can anyone be more specific? Cannon881 10:17, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't have my copy of the first 2 episodes anymore... but at the time, it was definitely mentioned by fans in multiple places (forums, blogs, I thin even this site). After I get another copy and rewatch it myself, if I don't see it, I'll try to track down who said it and whether they have more details. --Falcotron 12:25, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

at least one doctor doll isn't raggedy. I think personally it's worth checking Vampires in Venice for more of the same theme Lu-igi board

That's brilliant about "The Eleventh Hour" - I'd been wondering the same thing about that scene where the TARDIS sound is heard and young Amy smiles. That would make sense - especially since I've been going over all the scenes between the Doctor and young Amy over and over again and I can't figure out for the life of me what she's supposed to be "remembering". I really think you're on to something here. Bluebox444 10:56, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

See 'Raggedy doctor dolls / spoiler' lower down the list of threads... I posted this idea over a month ago on the howling and Cannon881 you pooh poohed it on April 8th sayng it was just 14 years dirt making some of the dolls look different. My point was that the doctor dolls are wearing 2 distinct different sets of clothes, the blue shirt raggedy dr outfit, and the smarter brown shirt outfit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/episodes/b00rs6t7/galleries/design_art

If young Amy hadn't seen the Doctor again after waiting in the garden with her blue duffle coat on, how would she have known he had changed his clothes. And there is a doll of Amy wearing her duffle coat too, and some of the models and drawings of the tardis are standing upright and not broken next to the shed 86.26.137.154 06:53, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! A picture is worth more than 1000 words of me vaguely remembering that some people said some stuff 5 weeks ago. :)

Even though both outfits look somewhat "raggedy", it is pretty clearly two completely different outfits, one of which is the one she saw early in TEH and one of which isn't. --Falcotron 09:07, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't "pooh pooh" it. I just said it was difficult to make out. I always make a point of saying that what I think is MY OPINION. If I was going to "pooh pooh" your idea, as you so elegantly put it, I'd point out that the doll on the far left has patches of blue on it's arms and stomach. I think it's a brilliant theory, but I'm just not entirely sure about the shirts. From what I can see, the brown shirted Doctor appears to be wearing pinstripe trousers? Cannon881 13:44, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

no Doctor doll has a bow-tie. does this dissprove the idea, or has this been done purposely (ie: the doctor will wear a tie, or a bow tie would practically confirm they had met again.)? Lu-igi board

Good point.

One thing to keep in mind is that these are the early design concepts released by the BBC on their website, not what was actually seen on-screen. It's always possible that these were done before 11's "costume" was finalized; it's probably worth looking at the video/screencaps to see if he's wearing a bowtie in the final version, just to make sure. But probably he isn't, which is a serious problem for the theory. --Falcotron 00:27, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Watched TEH end again and it does seem to be the same versions used in the epiosde as shown in the design art piccy. But also just prior to this at 101.29 when the Tardis leaves, the widescreen shot shows a light on in the middle upper room, can I make out a figure standing in the window possibly wearing a brown jacket? 86.26.137.154 07:27, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

i was just thinking there when it hit me: what if the doctor causes the cracks? this may have been discussed before, but what if the cracks exist because there were two versions of the Doctor there? its kind of a far fetched theory but its just a theoryOoiue 07:39, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

File:AmysWindow.png

Very hard to tell, but I don't think it's the Doctor. I'm not even sure it's a person--and if it is, it seems to be someone with a heavier face, a lot less hair, and possibly a moustache. Maybe someone else can get a better screen grab? I think I pulled this one off the 480p instead of the 1080p.... --Falcotron 07:49, May 11, 2010 (UTcC0

I can't see the person you describe here at all but I can see a shape very like Matt Smith at the left hand side of the window showing his shoulder and his head turned sideways, his profile against the top yellow thing (lamp?)81.141.84.225 18:01, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

File:Teht1.jpg

I was watching TeH to sort of recap on what we saw in this episode and watched the trailer at the end there are a couple of clips of the docotor with a mirror running down a street it could possibly be Venice. The way he had the mirror it appeared he was looking to see what was around, maybe looking for himself? This could support the finale doctor theory. Danisfunny 16:25, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

Infact after seeing pictures of tVoV again, I am certain the doctor in this picture is in Venice. Danisfunny 16:32, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

ive just had another thought...what if, the cracks exits, for some unknown reason, but the Doctor uses them to travel to everywhere he has been. Since its always been in an episode, it makes sense for him to use 1 crack and expand it into every time frame he's been into, what do you think?Ooiue 17:23, May 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just watched VoD again, picking up on Falcotron's first post here. Amy says towards the end in what comes across as a jokey exchange that she thought it would just be 'running through time, being daft and fixing stuff', and we know they arrived a month after Churchill phoned so they could stop Bracewell creating the ironsides in the 1st place 86.26.137.154 07:59, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, its quite evident we have 3 peices of information from this series so far. The Cracks, The Silence and The Pandorica. Just need the other 2....Ooiue 18:08, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Unless the cracks and silence are the same thing. ☆The Solar Dragon ^(Talk)☆ 19:05, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I think all 3 of those would be the same thing. The opening of the Pandorica creates the Cracks and the Cracks cause the Silence. That seems to be the chain of events regarding those 3. V00D00M0NKY 09:15, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think I have one for Victory of the Daleks.

The scene where the door opens and the soldier quickly tells whoever did it to "put the light out".

It's rather random and unexplained, and we never find out who opened it.

Clutching at straws here, but still, possibility. Ghadius 18:59, May 22, 2010 (UTC)Ghadius

there is also the message that Amy left for herself in the beast bellow, warning herself to stop the docotr investigateing. altho this could have been recorded during the 20 minutes that she 'forgot'

That one, I think is just Amy recording it during those 20 minutes. They have the recording facilities there. And presumably it's for basically the same purpose she used it for--so you can record a message reassuring yourself that you made the right decision (but probably censored so you can't sneak information out, of course). So, why would she need to come back from the future to leave that message? For that matter, what would be the point of coming back from the future to leave that message anyway? --Falcotron 04:44, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

There was a big record button between the protest and forget buttons. I'm pretty sure she recorded the message for herself then and there. V00D00M0NKY 10:16, May 25, 2010 (UTC)

Okey dokey, I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate for a bit. For the record, I LOVE this theory, but I've been going over the cited examples and I don't think it completely holds water. To elaborate:

• The old lady in TEH that says "I know you" - probably this was a set-up for the last scene reveal of all Amy's Raggedy Doctors. Along with the line from Rory about her "imaginary friend" growing up, this is part of building up Amy's lifelong obsession with the Doctor.
• The scene of little Amy waiting for the Doctor, and hears the TARDIS, then cuts to adult Amy waking up - I interpreted this as her having a dream, and hearing the TARDIS while still asleep.
• The Glass Thing - This one is the hardest to disprove. But... it's implied that Liz X figured out the lack of engines with glasses of water, and, having "grown up on the stories" of the Doctor's encounter with previous monarchs, expected that when he showed up, he'd figure it out in a minute.
• The "Put that light out!" scene - Probably just a reminder of blackout during the Blitz.
• The "Remember what I told you when you were seven..." scene - I'm going to go with production error about the jacket. The change in demeanor, well, this Doc has shown some shifts in mood on occasion. And what did he tell her when she was seven? It's at 5:35 in TEH: "I'm the Doctor. Do everything I tell you, don't ask stupid questions, and don't wander off."

Now, that's not to say that there isn't something going on that has yet to be revealed. At the very end of TEH, the Doctor has one of the Cracks on the TARDIS monitor. Meanwhile, Amy asks, "Why me?" and, while answering, the Doctor turns off the monitor before Amy can see it. Couple this with the "If I always told the truth, you wouldn't have to trust me" line for FaS, and it seems like the Doc knows more than he's telling. Monkey with a Gun 02:33, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that, if this theory is true, the Moff still made sure to write everything so some of the "evidence" is stuff we'll never figure out in advance, and the rest of it is stuff that could be explained away. He's trying to go back into his own past secretly, and make sure his earlier self doesn't figure out what's happening (to avoid nasty temporal paradoxes and Blinovitch Effects and Reapers and so on). Since we don't get to see that much more than the Doctor, anything good enough to completely fool him will be almost good enough to fool us. --Falcotron 12:12, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

One completely different possibility that a few people have brought up in various places: Maybe 11 is a lot more like 7 than he appears, and he's actually been plotting this whole thing out from the start. He's been using Amy and Rory without their knowledge (but hopefully to their benefit, as well as the whole universe's), just as he did with Ace. That would be a good explanation for the whole "why me" scene, certainly. Maybe the whole point is to force the "silent menace" into the open so he can deal with it once and for all.

I personally like the "finale Doctor desperately trying to fix things in his own recent timeline" idea a lot more than the "manipulative Doctor setting up a massive trap for an enemy" idea, but I can't convincingly eliminate the second one as a possibility. --Falcotron 12:18, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Might be nothing but in the trailer for next episode, the Doctor has a mirror again, off a car. ☆The Solar Dragon ^{(Talk - Contribs.)}☆ 19:02, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

The clip in the next time trailer is the same location etc as photo shot above posted May 11th, so it's not the Doctor returning to Venice after all, 86.26.137.154 05:46, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

In Cold Earth during Rory's Death the Doctor is seen walking away from Amy as she kneels over Rory's body, he is shown standing next to the Tardis. In the next shot the top of the Doctor's head can be seen circling behind her towards the Tardis again. This maybe a production continuity error or it may be an appearance of the finale Doctor returning again.

Here's just a theory but when the doctor first saw the crack what did he call it? Two points in time that never should have touched, and what has the doctor always said you can't go back on your own timeline ie two points in your own timeline can't 'touch' so if the doctor is going back on his own timeline he is creating the cracks because when he was there the first time the cracks were already there so he had to make them happen to preserve the timeline. Just a theoryBerfomet 18:18, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

maybe, finale Doctor visited seven year old amelia to tell her Rory, (whom she would no longer know). this will somehow help stop the cracks in some sort of strange timey-wimey thing... Lu-igi board

Berfomet, sounds like you just re-watched Ghostbusters recently. "Don't cross the streams." "Why?" "It would be bad." "I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, 'bad'?" "Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light." Then, later, "We'll cross the streams." "'Scuse me Egon? You said crossing the streams was bad!" "Cross the streams." "You're gonna endanger us, you're gonna endanger our client - the nice lady, who paid us in advance, before she became a dog." "Not necessarily. There's definitely a *very slim* chance we'll survive."

Of course maybe the Moff re-watched Ghostbusters too. Maybe the Doctor has to risk it. Or, hell, maybe he actually _wants_ a Blinovich explosion or the Reapers or whatever he was talking about to happen.

Still, I don't think the Doctor caused the cracks by going back on his own timeline. If so, why did he go back on his own timeline? The idea of him doing this to fix the cracks, or to set up something he can use later to contain the explosion that caused the cracks, or whatever, seems to make more sense to me. --Falcotron 21:37, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

Well it would make more sense if the doctor was forced to go back because he has gone back on his own timeline before (in fathers day) which means he always has the power/possibility to go back on his own timeline again, so maybe the 'unstoppable, unnamed, unresonable something' will force him to go back in time in the big bang causing the cracks creating a time paradox of sorts. (as the cracks were made when the doctor went back but because he went back and made the cracks he learned of the pandorica causing him to make the cracks causing him to learn and so on forever.)Berfomet 23:51, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

• I have a theory of how the cracks will be stopped. I think the pandorica opening will cause them, but the Doctor will send the Pandorica itself into a crack, causing a huge paradox, but ultimately stopping the cracks. also, I have a feeling River Song had an important role to play in causing them.... Lu-igi board

That is a good theory but I doubt the doctor would risk ripping the very fabric of time (something that wouldn't happen if he went back on his own timeline as long as he never spoke to himself) and also supporting my previous theory in an older comic wasn't there a future doctor who who met his seventh incarnation at a party since the time lords no longer had power over him (again re-iterating the whole time lord victorious thing) and proving he can meet and even speak with himself in a future incarnation possibly the one matt smith is currently playing?Berfomet 21:51, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

File:128.jpg

File:113.jpg

In 'The Eleventh Hour', we can see in many scenes a shadow moving. I thought it was Prisoner 0. However, in one of them, about 15'15" the shadow passed by the window, and it looked more like a human shape. Did Prisoner 0 already shift at that time? Or was it the finale Doctor?

14'57", when Amy packed, there was a shadow passing on the door. Meanwhile, the curtain in Amy's bedroom was closed, while after Amy ran out and came back again, the curtain was opened a little. The curtain issue also happened in the ground floor. When Amy ran out of the house to wait for the Doctor, the curtains are closed, but later, when the shadow looked at the little Amy through the window, the curtain was opend.

About three close-up shots on the door of Prisoner 0's room, maybe it was opened by the finale Doctor? grabpot 02:12, June 03, 2010 (UTC)

the first one your talking about I noticed first time (I'm son't usually notice stuff quick). I think It is the finale Doctor if he does go back.

The thing with prisoner zero's room confuses me though and I didn't think about it like this until now. If it was the Doctor then ok... BUT, whether or not who opened it, she didn't notice the room before (unless a perception filter can block out whether or not there was another room on that floor). So, if it was prisoner Zero (which I think it was) who opened the door, how did she not remember it at all? If it was the Doctor, the perception filter must have already been on there meaning the Doctor put it on there.

The confusing part is did Prisoner Zero escape before or after the Doctor opened the crack? I doubt he escaped before because there was no opening or light or anything besides noise coming out of the crack before the Doctor opened the crack.

Regarding the open window when she was packing her bags, I see no reason or purpose for that besides a production error. Why would the Doctor open those curtains? V00D00M0NKY 06:04, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

I believe the shadow that we see (especially the more obvious one where she's waiting for him outside, and he goes passed the window) is the Finale Doctor. I reason this because it takes months for Prisoner Zero to make a psychic connexion, and I have inferred he only moved there recently. This is how I explained why he stays there for 12 years, because he is sealed there, or (more likely) waiting for the present-Doctor to have natural time-flow; after the Finale Doctor consults him about the Cracks.Garaiavu 11:35, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure the Finale Doctor talked to Zero. I think that's when he talked to Amelia and that's what she was supposed to remember. And Prisoner Zero wasn't "sealed" in the house because he was at the hospital and out and about for Rory to see. Unless you were saying that's why he stayed on Earth but then I think that he was simply stranded there with no transport. Mainly I think he was just enjoying his freedom and the only reasons he was walking around town as other people were that he didn't want to be stuck in a single room and that's just was he does as a multiform. V00D00M0NKY 21:03, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with V00D00M0NKY that if the finale Doctor traveled back to TEH, he must have talked to Amelia. And the same for FaS. Otherwise, we don't really have any good evidence for the finale Doctor in the first place.

But it's not impossible that he talked to Prisoner Zero and the Angels _also_. In Cold Blood, the Doctor was frustrated that he hasn't been able to figure out the whole story behind the cracks, while Prisoner Zero and the Angels seemed to know so much more than him and laughed at him about it. So, what happens if he goes back to try to dig the info out of them? Well, by this point, he actually knows quite a bit, if not the whole story. If he reveals what he currently knows to them, they'll know a whole lot more than the Doctor the second time they meet him, and they'll find it hilarious that he doesn't know, since he was the one who told them.

I'm still inclined to think that he doesn't talk to either Prisoner Zero or the Angels, but now that I can imagine an entertaining story being written around it, I'm not 100% sure. --Falcotron 22:49, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

I was addressing this scene, that grabpot had mentioned: It can't possibly be Prisoner Zero, because he hasn't made psychic connexions yet. (@ ~15:53). It is implied to be "Prisoner Zero" because of the door opening, and the audience assumes this because we haven't met him yet. The scene where the finale-Doctor returns to child-Amelia @56:05 is a separate incident. (I was misled to think that it was a personification of Amy's "Inner Child" when I first saw it)Garaiavu 00:49, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was saying. The Finale Doctor visited her at the time the shadow passed the window. I could not have possibly been Prisoner Zero for the exact reason you said, no possible links yet. Besides not thinking it was the Doctor and not knowing who else it could be then how could anyone think it's Prisoner Zero? At first I was like "who the hell was that" and when they didn't address it in the episode I was extremely confused just like when the Doctor told Amy to remember what he told her when she was 7, I was like "what the hell is he talking about?". I never ever thought that particular shadow was prisoner zero. V00D00M0NKY 08:37, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Humanoid Silhouette @ 15:54

"The Doctor in the Tardis doesn't know!" ... as opposed to? A later Doctor without a Tardis because the Tardis asploded? Agonaga 05:04, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe Prisoner Zero and Angel Bob are both just big KLF fans and were referring to the song "Doctorin' the Tardis". :) --Falcotron 05:50, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

how noticeable Is the silouhette? maybe it's just a ghost on set....Lu-igi board

It's pretty noticeable. The camera goes from looking at Amelia outside to zooming out on the window then something runs by the camera and if you slow it down you can tell it is humanoid because you can see the arm as it's leaving the screen. V00D00M0NKY 22:39, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick note on the argument that the doctor returning wearing a new jacket in 'Flesh and Stone' is nothing more than a production error-- I'm a media major and have done a fair bit of filming, and here's my take on it:

-Most tvshows/ movies are filmed with one camera on each set at a time-- lights, sound, everything is set up to film the whole scene going one direction (let's say Amy's closeup), the entire scene is filmed a couple times to give options in editing, then it is all reset for another angle (the Doctor's closeup), filmed, reset for a third angle( a wideshot), and so on an so forth for every camera angle needed, then all the pieces are cut together in editing.

-In the scene in question, there are only two angles used- Amy's hands moving to Amy's closeup, and the Doctor's closeup.

-At some point both of these shots, you can see the changes in The Doctor's outfit- sleeves rolled up, new watch, and a glimpse of a jacket-clad shoulder in the one, and the collar of the shirt and jacket in the other.

-For this to have been a continuity error, he would have had to change multiple times in between shots as they filmed the scene.

-The argument could be made that that scene was filmed on a different day, which is plausible, but (and this is all conjecture based on what I know from filming, so you can take it or leave it as you will) when filming, and especially on location, you want to get as much done in as little time as possible. To me it seems likely that all the scenes with the Doctor in them were filmed together, and maybe the next day the scenes with just Amy and the clerics were filmed while, at a different location, they were filming scenes with the Doctor, but not with Amy.(Similar to how they did 'Midnight' and 'Turn Left' at the same time in season 4, but on a smaller scale) THEREFORE, the Doctor would have still had to have changed his outfit during the same day of filming to allow for the differences in this scene.

-Personally, I think the change was done on purpose, but kept to a minimum, so the average viewer wouldn't take much notice of it. That way, when whatever happens in the finale happens, the audience can have that moment of realization when they do decide to go back and rewatch stuff after the fact and see the subtle costume change and different way of speaking to Amy. If they really wanted it to be obvious (or if it was a continuity error), they could have just put in a wide shot so everyone could see he magically got a new jacket, which he then promptly lost again.

So, yeah, that's just my take on things from what I know of filming and the filming process... that turned out to be a lot longer than it was in my mind... Oh well.

- Also, it looks to me like the shirt he is wearing is different as well- making a costume change evenmore complicated than just quickly putting on a jacket. Melefim 04:58, June 20, 2010 (UTC)Melefim

Carrying on from this, from my limited experience on film sets, there is usually [at least] one person designated to keep their eye on continuity. Obviously, things still slip through occasionally, but the Flesh and Stone jacket thing just seems too obvious to have gone unnoticed. 115.69.5.221 14:13, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Melefim, I'm glad for your contribution, and following on this, TPO also seems to lend a strong chance of Rory's ID badge date having a story purpose. Agonaga 15:32, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Just saying, the finale Doctor has been confirmed to appear in TBB........ Henry319 16:07, June 24, 2010 (UTC)