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So The Name of the Doctor has now aired and the biggest question on most Whovians lips is “Who is Hurts incarnation of the Doctor?” Recent rumours aside, I don’t think it is that hard to make a judgement call and a educated guess, something I am sure all you Who fans are and have been doing since last night.
Now, thanks to last night episode and The Lodger I think it is clear to state there has only been, so far, eleven incarnations of The Doctor. That is to say, nobody came before Hartnell, he in my mind is the definitive First Doctor – this to me shows Hurt cannot come before William. He can’t come in-between either – basically because we saw Hartnell regenerate all the way up to McGann, with the only real space coming between Troughton and Pertwee. The age of Hurts doctor could well suggest he came between these two (after all the doctor seems to be getting “younger” with each regeneration) however, I don’t think the story allows for this. After McGann, we got a fresh a Doctor, Eccleston and how great he was – suffering clear survivors guilt due to something that happened between the Movie and Rose, what that was we shall get to later – however we saw 9 regenerate all the way up to 11 with no space for Hurts Doctor in-between. This suggest to me he came between 8 and 9, after all, he cannot come after Smith as he Eleventh Doctor clear remembers him.
With the facts so far it is clear Hurt must come between incarnations – I have read somewhere, recently that he could be an older version of 8. However I don’t think the evidence from last nights episode allows this. Clara, after all, states she helped all 11 incarnations and did not see his one – being an older version of 8 makes him incarnation 8 none the less and Clara should have encountered him. No, he is someone different.
Now, The Name of the Doctor made it clear at the end of the episode that that the name the Doctor chosen was a promise and important. Lets travel all the way back to The Sound of Drums and something the master said. “The Doctor, the man who makes people better.” While not a very important line at the time, I think it has become very significant now! Don’t doctors promise to try and make people better?
The Doctor states that while not an incarnation of the Doctor, hurt is an actual incarnation of himself, the one that broke the promise. So what would a Doctor breaking a promise of being a doctor actually do? Simple, instead of making people better, make people sicker, make people die. Let us go back to Eccleston’s Doctor, The Doctor that has clearly come from a traumatic experience, a doctor as I mentioned suffering survivors guilt.
It has been established that The Doctor did end the Time War in a traumatic way, how we are not sure. But we do know it was thanks to something called the moment. Regardless of how the Time War ended. I would argue that the sides of the war could be considered sick after all war is not healthy, the war clearly needed a Doctor. Hurt’s Doctor said something a little cryptic no choice" and that he did what he did "in the name of peace and sanity.” The Eleventhe responded by say “but not in the name of the Doctor!” As I mentioned before the job of the doctor is to make people better, to save people from death. To me Hurt has done something, that all though was needed to be done. It goes against everything The Doctor Stands for.
So based on all the facts so far. Hurt has to come between Doctors and he has to have done something that goes against the name of The Doctor – this for me places him between 8 and 9. Hurts Doctor is the Doctor that fought in the Time War, not McGanns as we first though. Hurt was the one who possessed the moment and ended the war, killing all the Time Lords. Going against everything the Doctor stands for. Why he regenerated into Ecceston remains to be seen. But the actions he could have done are clearly remembered and felt by Chris, even if he doesn’t remember the incarnation.
We, also, perhaps see remnants of Hurts Doctor in the10th, we all know The Doctor despises guns and would never use one. But in The End of Time, the return of The Time Lords caused him to abandon the creed.
Regardless, the question of who Hurts Doctor is actually is or where he places in the list isn’t what we need to be asking – Its just what did he do to go against the name of the Doctor and what did he do to make the last three incarnations to forget him. Whatever the case, Moffat’s statement of the secret being a game changer for Who wasn’t an underestimate in the slightest. This is going to change Who forever!--90.220.11.198talk to me 14:36, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the most boring way to resolve this is as follows:
- Standing in front of the Untempered Schism, the young boy on Gallifrey experiences a nightmarish vision of his future. He promises himself that will never come to pass, and sometime after his graduation renames himself 'The Doctor' as a constant reminder.
- Despite this, the Doctor always feels that this future is out there, waiting for him. A future where he breaks his promise to himself.
- Whatever horrible event occurred, it wasn't the ending of the Time War. As seen in the End of Time, the Time Lords were beyond redemption and thus there was no one to save, just two insane armies destroying the universe.
- However, this is Moffat's story we're talking about. The only time travel story he wants to write always includes a bootstrap paradox. (Most of the RTD paradoxes being grandfather paradoxes). Psicraft ☎ 15:58, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
"That is to say, nobody came before Hartnell, he in my mind is the definitive First Doctor" <--As you said, in your mind. There's not much basis for that assumption. 184.166.6.102talk to me 16:02, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
I think 90's right, or at least, those were the same conclusions I reached on my own. I don't think that 9-11 actually forgot him, although they might have tried really hard. But we don't see the Doctor referring back to previous incarnations often, so it's not much of a surprise that we haven't heard of him before from the Doctor's perspective. One of the reasons I think Hurt comes between 8 and 9 is because you can see a darkness around him; a darkness not present in 8 yet obviously present in 9, although it seems 9 is trying to get away from it, trying to escape the horror he caused. There is residual darkness that can be see in 10 and then, to a lesser extent, 11, which I think helps date Hurt's incarnation to before 9 as the darkness is going away, or at least being buried, by his later incarnations. This, along with all the other evidence stated above convinces me of his placement in the Doctor's time line, as well as the fact that this is the first time any Doctor has outright said they are incarnation such-and-such of the Doctor (in The Lodger it was implied, and the audience interpreted based on already known information, however it wasn't stated outright), coupled with the statement that Hurt isn't the Doctor, but he is the same Time Lord as 11. The only other option I can see is that he's a future Doctor which 11 had seen earlier or as a result of entering his own time line. Imamadmad (Contact me) 23:58, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
In terms of the Doctor's timeline, somewhere between 8 & 9 is about the only place that fits & ending the Time War by using the Moment is the only event we know of that is terrible enough. We were, though, given yet another clear indication that 11 really is 11, not 12 pretending a predecessor hadn't happened. That raises the possibility that the "Hurt Doctor" is a side-step or "branch line" in the Doctor's timeline.
We've also seen (with 9, 10 & 11) that, although ending the Time War by destroying Gallifrey & the Time Lords was terrible, the Doctor has been willing to admit to doing it. As Psicraft says, above, by that stage "the Time Lords were beyond redemption". Whatever the "Hurt Doctor" did appears to be something the Doctor regards as even worse than ending the Time War.
That needn't mean it's unconnected. Perhaps (& I emphasise perhaps) the "Hurt Doctor" did something "without choice", "in the name of peace and sanity" -- but something wrongful in itself -- that created the situation in which using the Moment to end the Time War was the only way out. In other words, he did something we don't yet know about & the most terrible thing we do know about was the remedy for what he'd done. --89.241.65.242talk to me 03:44, May 20, 2013 (UTC)
I do think he's associated with the Time War. Making-out this character to have committed something so terrible he can't be called "The Doctor" any more has to be that event. This is just me hoping, but I doubt even Moffat would dare invent something more terrible than the Time War. Gallifrey102 ☎ 00:19, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
Gallifrey102: You misunderstand. I didn't mean that whatever the "Hurt Doctor" did was separate from or worse than the Time War. I meant that it was something in the Time War that contributed to making it as bad as it was & that not only meant that the war had to be ended but also meant that it had to be ended in the way it was ended: by destroying the Time Lords & Gallifrey. Not something worse than the war but something worse than the ending of the war. --89.240.249.124talk to me 07:00, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
The fiftieth anniversary surely has to go back and deal with the origin of The Doctor and the Time War is not the origin. Why did The Doctor run away in the first place? This clip was specifically chosen to remind viewers that The Doctor stole a TARDIS and ran off with his granddaughter. What happened before this event. Why run away with your granddaughter; where are her parents? What had he done prior to this and was he called The Doctor when he did it. Was their an incarnation not called The Doctor prior to this event and what did he do that started the whole story off in the first place? 86.159.247.237talk to me 09:28, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
What I'm saying is that the 'terrible' thing isn't something terrible on a universe changing scale. It's something personal, something that he did that destroyed his family and broke him. You've seen how loss affects him. Imagine if he had to make a choice that made his let his son/daughter die in order to do a greater good. He breaks his promise to his family and it breaks his hearts. He regenerates; becomes the first Doctor and runs away from it all. Now he spends the rest of his lives trying to make it better by saving those he can. 86.159.247.237talk to me 09:40, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
"The fiftieth anniversary surely has to go back and deal with the origin of The Doctor": As, I think, Terry Pratchett in one of his Discworld novels has pointed out, the word "surely" in a statement like that almost always means "there's nothing solid supporting this statement but I'm hoping you won't notice that". You (& plenty of others) may want the anniversary episode to deal with the Doctor's origin, you (& plenty of others) may hope it'll do that -- but it doesn't have to.
"Why did The Doctor run away in the first place?" has been addressed quite a few times. If you think it was because of some terrible personal loss and/or guilt, watch the closing moments of The Five Doctors, when Tegan asks, "You mean you're deliberately choosing to go on the run from your own people in a rackety old TARDIS?" & the Fifth Doctor cheerfully replies, "Why not? After all, that's how all this began." The Fifth Doctor is the nicest & most sensitive of all his incarnations so far & he shows not the slightest hint of guilt or sadness or shame when he speaks of his original departure from Gallifrey. What's more, earlier in that story, he'd met Susan. Seeing his granddaughter again, in the TARDIS, for the first time since he was in his 1st incarnation obviously didn't remind him -- or her -- of anything terrible from the past. There's no sign anywhere in the classic series of such a burden & your idea doesn't fit what we saw of the Doctor in that time. The Five Doctors is the clearest example I can think of but none of the classic series is compatible with a burden like that.
There is a burden now but there was no sign of it then. Right up until the Eighth Doctor left San Francisco at the end of the TV movie, there was no sign of it. When we saw the Ninth Doctor in the revived series, there clearly was a burden. It dates from the interval between the last time we saw the Eighth Doctor & the first time we saw the Ninth -- the interval that contains (& probably ended with) the Time War. --89.240.249.124talk to me 11:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
You may well be right but the time war has grown old; he tried to wipe out his own species and crimes don't really get much larger than genocide. The only real revelation that's bigger would be that he could have done something to stop the war from happening (or using timey-wimey to undo it all) but chose not to because he wanted the Time Lords and daleks dead. Can't really see it.
I still guess that it's a more personal thing but that's really just based on the 'family' feeling that Moffat's developed. There are a few ways to retcon out the Doctors guilt in the original series. His timeline was just rewritten twice, the universe has rebooted (twice?) and so it's not a big ask to say that the memory was deeply hidden even from himself until 'recently'. After all his big secret was only just made up. Only time will tell.