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Narrative proof of the name: Doesn't it being in the credits of "Night of the Doctor" qualify as proof enough? Kamen Rider Phantom ☎ 22:11, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
Doctor's Death
I'm just curious, the War Doctor died of old age did he not? (I mean he did die because his body became too old and weak to function anymore) Since he and the 1st are would be the only two to have gone in that manner, is that enough to make the page, in a trivia section perhaps? Moogleknight24 ☎ 13:32, November 24, 2013 (UTC)Moogleknight24
Hurt as ninth Doctor
For me things are clear. Hurt is the ninth Doctor. There is multiple evidence for that. I'll try to stay chronological.
1) Episode "The Name of the Doctor": "Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor"
2) Webisode "Night of the Doctor": McGann regenerates into Hurt. Hurt credited as the War Doctor.
3) Just as Hurt is about to press that red crystal in the Special Tennant and Smith say: "All those burying you in my memory. Pretending you didn't exist. Keeping you a secret even from myself. Pretending you weren't the Doctor when you were the Doctor more than anybody else. You were the Doctor on the day it was impossible to get it right. But this time you don't have to do it alone". This quote shows two things. First - newer Doctors admit Hurt is the Doctor. He always was but subsequent incarnations tried to keep a memory of him hidden. They were ashamed of what he did. Secondly - they understood whatever decision he made was a bad one. They decided to press that button together. This means they were ready to kill Daleks and Time Lords. Doesn't it make them not worthy of the title "Doctor" too? That's why I'm against all those word games with "Doctor", "War Doctor", "Warrior".
4) "This time it's three of us"
5) Smith: "Gallifrey High Command, this is the Doctor speaking", Tennant: "Hello! Also the Doctor, hear me?", Hurt: "Also the Doctor. Standing ready".
6) "All twelve of them.", "No Sir - all thirteen!" (Hurt and Capaldi among them).
7) Smith addresses Hurt as Doctor.
8) Hurt knows he'll only remember trying to destroy Gallifrey. "But for now, for this moment I am the Doctor again". It just shows he alone, internally didn't consider himself as the Doctor. It was his conciousness that made him throw away his title.
9) Hurt regenerates into Eccleston.
10) All Doctors stare at Gallifrey. Hurt among them. Why would he be there if he wasn't the Doctor?
11) End titles. Hurt credited as the Doctor.
12) Hurt's face appears after McGann's and before Eccleston's.
Each of us has their own views but I think it's common sense if Hurt is acknowledged as the ninth Doctor. An encyclopaedia should show things as they are. It should be logical, not philosophical. There shouldn't be room for interpretation. Only facts. And facts say Hurt is the ninth incarnation of that particular Time Lord who calls himself "the Doctor". Even if it means a lot of work changing titles of articles, altering redirections I think it should be done. Otherwise - what's the point of maintaining the Tardis Data Core?
EDIT: I just read the announcement from CzechOut. Probably no one gives a damn what I think but I appreciate there are others who think of Hurt as a true Ninth incarnation. Just wanted to say one more thing. CzechOut says it's only Smith's Doctor who is fully aware of the whole situation. I want to ask then - from what point of view is this Wikia written? Other Wikias about about franchises - for example Star Trek or Star Wars are written as if everything they describe happened in the past. Obviously we can't write about things that WILL happen in the series. I feel that leaving things as they are because of past incarnations' ego is not right. Jamjumetley ☎ 15:03, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Word of God (Steven Moffat) says that numbering will be unaffected. Merchandise will probably refer to Hurt as the War Doctor. And CzechOut is right, Eccleston and Tennant's Doctors do consider themselves to be 9 and 10 - and likewise, Smith's incarnation believed for the majority of his life that he was the 11th to use the name "Doctor". They know of the Hurt incarnation's existence but don't remember that he accepted the name. Thus the War Doctor will not be called the Ninth Doctor. Digifiend Talk PR/SS KR MH Toku JD Garo TH CG UM Logos CLG DW 15:29,24/11/2013
- Jamjumetley, I have a suggestion for you. Browse the wiki to get an idea how many times the NuWho doctors are referred to by number. Most of the time they're not even linked, which would make them harder to find. The act of changing all the nines to tens, etc. is just way too much work for the editors of this wiki, when there is so much other work to be done. Shambala108 ☎ 15:54, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
- I know I'm a pain in the backside and my moaning will probably not change anything but I'll try anyway ;)
- About Moffat. I believe that what we see in episodes is in force. Not what even Moffat says in the interviews. The reason is he's a producer and he'll say anything to keep a secret until the premiere. He even admitted during the after party on BBC3 he can finally stop lying :)
- About the memory. All subsequent Doctors know Hurt is their past incarnation. The only thing none of the Doctors (except for Smith's) won't remember is that they all saved Gallifrey. Eccleston, Tennant and Smith didn't believe they were 9, 10 and 11. They just refused to acknowledge Hurt. That has changed and Smith's Doctor doesn't hide his ninth incarnation any more. That means Capaldi is the last incarnation and it will be a major thing in the series to show what the producers will come up with to justify giving him additional regenerations. Hurt's not outside of the twelve regenerations limit.
- @Shambala108 Then let's admit openly that the only reason for not updating things is that it's too much of a work to change all that. Otherwise it's a bit like not telling the whole truth.
- And sorry for writing initially in the archive section ;) Jamjumetley ☎ 16:20, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Jamjumetley, the War Doctor is the ninth incarnation. He doesn't need to be the Ninth Doctor, because we already have a Ninth Doctor (the technical tenth incarnation). "Doctor" and "incarnation" are not necessarily the same thing. The "Ninth Doctor" is the title and so is the "War Doctor." The latter involves special circumstances, whether it's from the Doctor's own perspective or the audience's. I do feel it should be noted that their incarnations differ from their titles on their individual pages, but leaving their titles/aliases as War and Nine makes perfect sense. Mewiet ☎ 16:36, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Jamjumetley, please don't twist my words, especially after you admit reading Czechout's explanation of policy. I just wanted you to see the magnitude of the task you are setting others. Shambala108 ☎ 16:55, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry if you misunderstood me Shambala108. It wasn't my intention to twist your words. Hope you don't hold grudge against me. I probably didn't voice my opinion clearly. It doesn't help that the whole case is complicated though...
- Mewiet, I really understand all of that. I really do. I view your idea as a good compromise. It might resolve some confusion. The problem is that the word "Doctor" can refer to the character (then all portraying actors are the Doctor) or specific incarnation.
- I saw an article today about what Moffat said ("Wait a moment! You said you disregard his words!" - you might say). It's a bit different now because he doesn't have any secrets at the moment. Of course nothing's written in the stone but... it feels sound ;) He said:
- He has no more ever called himself the 11th Doctor than he would call himself Matt Smith. The Doctor doesn’t know off the top of his head [what number he is]
- If you worry about such things, and I do, then I specifically said John Hurt’s Doctor doesn’t use the title. [Matt Smith's Doctor] is in his 12th body but he’s the 11th Doctor, however there is no such character as the 11th Doctor – he’s just the Doctor – that’s what he calls himself.
- The numbering doesn’t matter, except for those lists, that you and I have been making for many years, he said. So I’ve given you the option of not counting John Hurt numerically – he’s the War Doctor.
- Paul McGann turns into John Hurt so they’re not the same incarnation, said Moff. He used up another regeneration and I’ll expect he’ll be in trouble shortly – you can’t break rules laid down in the Deadly Assassin.
- Taking all that into consideration - the numbering is artificial. The title is only a symbol. In reality they all are just different stages of the same person. Frankly - that's what I always thought. They are ALL the same entity - the Doctor.
- Sorry for stirring things up :P Jamjumetley ☎ 18:12, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
I am not an editor of this wiki but I would like to point out it wouldn't be a lot of work if you have access to a bot. Just make sure you change 11 -> 12 before changing 10 -> 11. Oni Dark Link 15:23, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Not true, because as I pointed out above, there are tons of number uses that are not linked. The bot can't find those and know which ones to change and which ones not to change. Shambala108 ☎ 16:02, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
Oncoming Storm
Acording to the ninth doctor the daleks in the time war knew him as the oncoming storm. So wouldn't Oncoming Storm be one of the war doctors alias's?