Talk:Meta-Crisis Doctor

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Blue suit - Behind the Scenes?

Why is this in the Behind the Scenes section?

The Doctor occasionally wore his blue suit even after the Meta-Crisis Doctor left the TARDIS with it, revealing that the Doctor either replaced it or owned more than one. (TV: Music of the Spheres, Dreamland, The Waters of Mars)

This is an in-universe statement. Unless there's something I'm missing here, this should be in a separate section. SmallerOnTheOutside ☎ 02:56, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

Regeneration

so according to " The Mirror," Steven Moffat is counting the meta-crisis tenth doctor as a regeneration. This is kind of important since it puts to bed the long debate over whether or not Meta 10 used up a regeneration. Plus, since the War Doctor exists, that would bring us to 12 regenerations (8 classic + War + 9 + 10 + M10 + 11). Shouldn't it be added to the page somewhere? Source link: [[1]] Kremlin16 ☎ 07:37, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Please see Thread:145998 for how we're dealing with the different incarnation numbers, and please see Tardis:Valid sources for why anything Moffat says offscreen cannot be put on in-universe pages. Thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 14:17, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

So, basically, until meta 10 is confirmed to have counted on screen, and the Doctor mentions he used up all his regenerations on screen, this kind of thing won't be added? I just want to make sure I understand this. Kremlin16 ☎ 21:19, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Sort

Should this page be sorted as Doctor, Meta-Crisis Tenth instead of its current name? It doesn't fit in with the rest of the Doctors. guyus24 05:37, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Was wondering how could mention that there was a lesser version of a meta-crisis with The Doctor during his 1st incarnation when his energies were drained and transferred into the Human[oid] Jano, which permanently altered him (in The Savages). Just an oldster's odd observation.174.64.6.27^{talk to me} 07:08, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

Is there in-universe proof that Jano was a meta-crisis? Certainly, the term was not used in The Savages. In addition, there are significant differences: Jano was an existing individual, he was not created as the result of meta-crisis. Also, depending on how close Jano's people were to humans, Jano was not supposed to survive being a meta-crisis. Note that Steven Taylor could successfully breed with the inhabitants of the planet, meaning that biology was reasonably similar. Amorkuz ☎ 15:32, September 10, 2017 (UTC)

Tentoo

I know much discussion has been had to reach the name for this incarnation that the wiki uses, but the social media accounts have now called him "Tentoo" – Is this an official acknowledgement and recognition for this name? (Before you protest "it's not in-universe" or to that effect, remember that the same is true of pretty much every variation on The Nth Doctor with only The Eleventh Doctor ever referring to themselves as such iirc.)

First of all, it is not the case that Nth Doctor is not in-universe. Tardis:Doctors provides relevant references for this naming scheme from stories.

Secondly, anonymous "social media accounts" and "official confirmation" are largely antithetical to each other. Notwithstanding, unspecified social media accounts are not a valid source and should be disregarded.

Finally, even if the Doctor, in-universe, uses "time-wimey" to describe Blinovitch Limitation Effect, we are not going to rename it thusly. This is an online encyclopedia of Doctor Who. We are not going to use niche jargons instead of proper English. We are going to be very grown-up and use words like "equidistant" and "meta-crisis". However, if RTD and Ten(nant) himself both start rooting for an alternative name, I will be prepared to return to this question. Amorkuz ☎ 16:08, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

Conjecture

I have not yet been able to listen to The Siege of Big Ben (I'll get it sometime next week) but the Big Finish page refers to this character as the Meta-Crisis Doctor. Does this mean that the title is conjectural no more? --Borisashton ☎ 12:33, June 30, 2018 (UTC)

First of all, a very astute observation. Unfortunately, he is not called that in the story though "meta-crisis" is used to explain his condition (several times). Jackie Tyler calls him "the Doctor" most of the time. Nevertheless, it is indeed the case that a holder and executor of a BBC license calls him "Meta-Crisis Doctor" off-universe. While the description of the {{conjecture}} requiring to use it for articles "whose subjects' names do not actually appear within a valid narrative" still applies, I think it is an important step. Were the name Meta-Crisis Doctor used in the credits, it would have been enough. For now, we just need to wait till the meta-crisis mass becomes critical. Amorkuz ☎ 21:48, July 5, 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record although yet again the evidence isn't in the narrative, this Doctor was referred to as "The Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" in a recently uploaded video to the official Doctor Who YouTube channel. --Borisashton ☎ 18:40, August 12, 2018 (UTC)

The alias used in the new Target Storybook short story (Corin) is only relevant to said story. As stated above, the alias is not used in Big Finish nor on any official site. The author has made clear that it is a different timeline than either of the Big Finish Short Trips.--ibelieveinher ☎ 19:45, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

Hi I've left a message on your talk page but please note that your first statement above is incorrect with regard to how we write articles on this wiki. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 23:50, October 24, 2019 (UTC)

The term Meta-Crisis Doctor is the common factor throughout all mediums and to refer to him as Corin in relation to anything but the short story is incorrect. The base neutral "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should therefore be the term/name used when referring to the character in any common dialogue. If we start using one specific name for all characters across any medium then we may as well only call The Doctor, Theta.ibelieveinher ☎ 00:50, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The article has been protected for now due to vandalism by two IP users. Shambala108 ☎ 01:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

First we should establish whether TtotT takes place before or after the Big Finish Short Trips. If it takes place after then "the Doctor" and "Meta-Crisis Doctor" should be the terms used to refer to this individual in reference to the BF stories within the biography section. As his most recent name, "Corin" should be used for all other sections. --Borisashton ☎ 01:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The author has said that it takes place in a separate timeline than Big Finish. In same way that the First Doctor and Susan have conflicting adventures, one is not related to the other and therefor one name cannot be used as standard.- ibelieveinher ☎ 01:28, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence of this intent and a specific example of this First Doctor precedent? --Borisashton ☎ 01:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

In Susan's intro alone, she as 2 separate names listed after "According to some sources". This is the format we should follow for the Meta-Crisis Doctor. He only goes by that name in one spin-off and the two appearances (big finish/target storybook) are unrelated. We know "Doctor Who" doesn't subscribe to continuity, so to try and ascribe continuity to it would be a disservice. He goes by The Doctor from day one in the Big Finish Short Trips but the Target Short Stories have him choosing a new name before leaving Norway. "The Meta-Crisis Doctor" is the only neutral and canonical term/name used across all media. - ibelieveinher ☎ 01:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But the Susan example is an example of conflicting sources. If TTotT takes place after the BF stuff I see no contradiction. There is precedent here with Jack Harkness. For the early life sections of his biography he is referred to as Javic and then later as Jack. His most used and most recent alias is the one used for most of the page. --Borisashton ☎ 01:59, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

But with Jack, the usage of his names are consistent across all media. I don't feel this precedent should apply in this situation since the monikers of the Meta-crisis are inconsistent.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The Big Finish Audios and the Target Storybook 'are' conflicting sources. They even specifically diverge in regards to the topic of conversation. And to canonize one over the other would be taking sides and the point of this site is to remain neutral. Meta-Crisis Doctor is how we do so. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:03, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How do they conflict, exactly. Could you provide details? --Borisashton ☎ 02:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Big Finish establishes the fact that the Meta-Crisis Doctor goes by the name, "Doctor" within the first 5 minutes of The Siege of Big Ben. The director of Unit also calls him The Doctor before the end of story as well. They are well into living their lives in Pete's World. In the follow up, Flight Into Hull!, Jackie says flat out that he is "still the Doctor!" In TtotT, it says he picks his new name only days after arriving on Bad Wolf Bay and is then never once referred to as The Doctor. They also have different careers in both; In the audios he and Rose both work for Unit and live in London and in TtotT they are a Doctor and teacher respectively living on the south coast.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I hardly think these are irreconcilable. We can simply stucture the page as: "days after arriving in Pete's World, Rose confronted the Meta-Crisis Doctor about him using the name the Doctor. He then chose the name "Corin" for himself, and became a doctor, while Rose went on being a teacher. (PROSE: The Turning of the Tide) Year laters, "Corin" once again called himself "the Doctor", and worked for UNIT (AUDIO: The Siege of Big Ben, Flight Into Hull!)" etc etc.

I do agree (from the info we gathered) that we need to take care where in the article we refer to him as "Corin" and when we refer to him as "the Doctor". Does anyone disagree with the compromise I proposed above (which would of course be further developed if put on the page)? OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:31, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I believe that when speaking about TtotT he should of course be referred to as Corin, but to change any mention elsewhere is too far. The show called him a Meta-Crisis (he himself was adamant that he was The Doctor), and Big Finish has chosen that he goes by The Doctor as well. I think to try and combine the two for the sake of everyone isn't our place. The same way Susan's previous names are mentioned when referring to those stories, the same should be done for The Meta-Crisis. Keep 'The Doctor' with the audios and keep 'Corin' with the Target Story. We could get int othe fact that RTD, David Tennant, and Billie Piper (along with his specific fans, for good reason) all call him Tentoo, but the overall neutral is still Meta-Crisis Doctor.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:37, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The disagreement is with the fact that in a specific tweet from the author, she states that she decided to go a different direction from Big Finish, therefore making her story an AU and not related to Big Finish in anyway. They are two separate verses. Someone else posted a link to the author's tweet in the section below. -Tentooisthedoctor – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Apologies, I thought I responded to this but I was mistaken. It is not up to this site to decide for fans how stories may be connected. The fact is that as of right now they are not. They conflict in more ways than they overlap. Both spin offs (audios/storybook) deal with a a similar timeline but different situations. We can't restructure those stories for simplicity's sake.

I thik the compromise should be that any alternate monikers should be used in the sections which are related to their relevant stories and any neutral mentions should stick with The Meta-Crisis Doctor. --Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:39, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

There hasn't been any in-show appearance post-Journey's End to confirm any sort of timeline for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, so both the Big Finish and Target stories dealing in hypotheticals. Why force the two stories into one coherent timeline when they weren't intended as such and let fans decide for themselves how they fit together? Why not deal with them as "One account suggests this, another suggests something else" and use the neutral Meta-crisis name otherwise? Thanks for being open to suggestions.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:56, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Metacrisis/Tentoo

The Meta-crisis page is completely inaccurate and should not have been changed to meet the views of one writer's headcannon since she did not write the actual show. The head writer Russell T. Davies did not give the metacrisis Doctor a name. He is still THE DOCTOR (meta-crisis or Tentoo) and should remain as such until Russell Himself comes out and says otherwise. Also trying to change the name back to Tentoo is not vandalism. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

Also on the author's Twitter page she specifically states that while she enjoyed the Big Finish she chose to go a different direction with her story therefore not staying with the previous storylines but rather her own personal ideas of what would have happened. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2605:6000:8C4D:5500:F803:535:2996:7724 (talk).

I suggest you read Tardis:In-universe perspective and Tardis:Neutral point of view to understand this wiki's way of handling all stories. And please note that wikis on FANDOM are written by and for fans, we don't have to follow everything the writers say or do. We have our own definition of what is a valid source and what isn't. Shambala108 ☎ 01:46, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Also, could you please provide a link to this so-said tweet? Going through her tweets from today and yesterday, I can find no mention of either Big Finish or the Meta-Crisis Doctor/Corin. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 01:48, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

The tweet was in response to a question: "Are you tying into what they did with the Big Finish short stories at all? Or taking a different path?" Her response was as follows: "I LOVED the Big Finish shorts but I have gone a different way. xxxxx" Author's Tweet --Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 02:00, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

With all respect, I think that the anonymous user read too much into her tweet. The most straight-foward (and most likely) interpretation for her answer ("different way") means just that: her story isn't continuity-linked with the two BF Short Trips. But then again, neither are any of the stories in this anthology. That's not the point of the stories. Most likely, she just meant that there wasn't any intention on this story being written to tie-in with these stories - but jumping from this to "this story and the two Short Trips take place in alternate realities" is a very big stretch. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 02:35, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I did a deep search of her twitter today as well and she is very clear that the two stories are not connected. As you said, they're not continuity linked so it would be unwise to try and connect them or any moniker used from one to the other.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 02:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

How this wiki works

For some reason there are a lot of new users interested in this issue. Therefore, to make things clear, I will explain briefly how this wiki works. I will also cite a few policy pages that I won't bother to spell out here, but they should be read if anyone wants to understand the wiki's position.

For in-universe articles, we are trying to make a narrative/history of the Doctor and assorted people associated with him and spin-offs. We try to write from an outside, neutral perspective, almost as if we are historians chronicling the Doctor's history.

When an author (book, comic, audio, etc) adds something that expands on something from the tv show(s), we treat that as part of the overall narrative. Therefore, even if only one story names a character something, then we write the article with that in mind.

Because this is Doctor Who, and its writers don't care about continuity (or what each other write), there are often contradictions. We take care of those by writing statements like, "According to one account, the Doctor did this. Other accounts suggested that he did this instead."

Policies:

Please keep in mind that a FANDOM wiki is written by and for fans, and we as a community have decided how we want to run our wiki. When we write in-universe articles, we only use stories as sources. It doesn't matter what any author/actor/director/etc says about something if it doesn't appear in a story. Therefore, "Tentoo" is not a name we will be using on in-universe articles until/unless it appears in a story. As for "Corin", that is still up for discussion here. Shambala108 ☎ 02:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. I guess this is just a formal request then that Meta-Crisis Doctor be used in any broad statements in the article. But since we currently have 3 places in which this character appears and all with different alias's (TV - Journey's End, Audio -The Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull!, and Prose - The Turning of the Tide), I believe the only way to stay neutral is to continue referring to the character as The Meta-Crisis Doctor in the article and specific story paragraphs can use the names from the stories i.e. The Doctor or Corin. For the broad spectrum I think we should stick with Meta-Crisis Doctor. Tentoo is obviously a fan used name and not relevant to the conversation at this time.--Ibelieveinher ☎ 03:01, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Since the Big Finish and Target stories are conflicting, then it makes the most sense to take both media and discuss them in terms of "According to one account, other accounts suggested this" rather than referring to a linear timeline and use the moniker Meta-Crisis throughout the page. Since the Meta-crisis and Rose have not appeared in the show again to confirm any post Journey's End story line, they are co-existing story lines and should be treated as such if the TARDIS wiki is to remain neutral.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 03:17, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to add my agreement with the two posts above. I believe that if you all are truly "writing this as/for the fans" as you stated above, then to remain neutral he should be referred to solely as the Metacrisis Doctor as the BBC has documented except in the specific section for the Target Book in which the author names him differently for her story. -DoctorxRoseForever 10/25/19

I see no conflict. -- Saxon (✉️) 14:24, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Could you elaborate? --Ibelieveinher ☎ 15:18, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

I would also like to add my agreement to the fact that he should mainly be referred to as "Metacrisis Doctor"- not as "Corin"- as obviously the vast majority of the stories he has appeared in refer to him as "Doctor" and not that other name. Yes it should get a mention, but it is not the name that he is known as for most of his appearances in canon. Would you refer to the 12th Doctor as "Doctor Basil Disco" throughout his wiki page because he went by that name for one episode? I don't think so Oimatchstickman ☎ 16:42, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

But that was a one-off aliases intended to be used briefly, and wasn't even the aliases he used (it was "John Disco"). "Corin", however, is intended to be the name he chose after settling down and, like when the General's real name was given as Kenossium, must be treate as such in narrative, except for events depicted before he chose the name.BananaClownMan ☎ 18:33, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Corin is his chosen name in one post-Journey's End story. He is not using that name in the Big Finish short trips which are also post-Journey's End. There is nothing in either story to suggest the two are connected in a linear timeline and shouldn't be forced together because that is conjecture and no actual evidence for connection exists. He is not choosing that name in all possible timelines post-Journey's End, and since the Meta-Crisis and Rose have not appeared again in the show to confirm a coherent storyline, the Target story shouldn't be taken as the definitive post-Journey's End canon. Neither should Big Finish, to be fair. The two should be handled as separate accounts of events if the site wishes to be neutral. Corin should only be used in reference to the Target story, and Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor should be used as the neutral moniker elsewhere.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 18:44, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. Only one out of four stories supports this new name. In all other stories, he is The Doctor. If it must be used, it should only be used when talking about him in the Target Storybook version of events. It should not in ANY way be used for the Big Finish stories or any of the other information in the page. Not to mention that it's a super confusing name for anyone to find by chance. I was very confused about seeing "Corin" when looking at the page that lists the stories in the anthology when I was just looking to see what the Meta-crisis story was called. Meta-Crisis Doctor should be the rule, "Corin" the exception. Oimatchstickman ☎ 19:21, October 25, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If I'm being honest, based on what I'm reading it sounds like the admins on this site are in no way being as neutral as they claim they are supposed to be. The fans that have posted above have made perfectly logical arguments as to why the name should not be changed to fit the direction of one author's story. Especially when said author publicly stated on social media that she chose to go a different way from the Big Finish audios. That should tell you right away that her story in no way ties into the canon that was already established by those storylines, nor is it connected to them in any way. And based on your rules and regulations you've got posted throughout these comments, should not allow a name change to the character's entire page aside from the one section regarding the Target book. The fact that some of the admins keep arguing against these points (which are in accordance with their rules of how cannon should be stated) makes me a bit suspicious of their reasons behind changing the name. In addition, I ask the moderators, based on your NEUTRAL POLICY of "base your edits on the facts present in valid sources. Ignore your own opinions — and those of fan websites. If you can't prove it with a high quality source, don't write it." Can you cite your sources as to where it states the Target Story is directly tied to Big Finish or any of the other canon material out there that refers to him with this new name instead of The Meta-Crisis Doctor? -bannanasaregood October 25, 2019 – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.107.32.28 (talk).

I don't know how to make clearer to our new users how we write articles on this wiki, so I'm going to offer up a suggestion: while this article is still locked, please browse the wiki, concentrating on character pages, and see how we try to integrate all stories into a single narrative. It takes a while to get the hang of how we integrate tv, audio, comic, prose, and web stories, and we don't always succeed in making a nice flowing narrative, but we are trying.

The next part is mostly addressed to "bannanasaregood" (actually an IP user), but it would benefit all new editors to pay attention. "bannanasaregood", your comments are a violation of Tardis:No personal attacks, specifically your suspicions of admin reasons for our actions. You don't yet understand how this wiki works, so our actions may not make sense to you, but let me be perfectly clear: personal attacks are not tolerated on this wiki. If you are blocked for violating this policy, you can't argue your position on this issue.

To make my own position on this issue clear: I don't care at all about this issue. I don't care what we call this guy, as long as we follow long-established wiki policy. My comments above are intended to educate the half dozen or so new users that have been attracted by this issue, and my locking of the page for a week was to prevent any more violations of Tardis:You are bound by current policy and Tardis:Edit wars are good for absolutely nothing.

I'm going to call for a cooling-off period. There is no need for anyone to keep restating their opinions when we can see them already on the page. After this weekend, hopefully there will be a greater understanding of how this wiki works, and then we can get back to the discussion. Shambala108 ☎ 22:06, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

One other thing, please refrain from making any arguments on this issue on anyone's user talk page, whether or not they are an admin. We are discussing this article, so the arguments must be on this talk page. Thanks Shambala108 ☎ 22:19, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

Ok but there is NO, NONE, NOTHING AT ALL to connect the Target book and the Big Finish stories. Can you please put in plain language why the Wiki will not allow this character's name as given in 3/4 of his appearances to be the main name given here and why ONE single story is being given precedence in this article? Much as I loathe the name 'Corin' I get that it should have some sort of presence here but I do not see any reason why it should be the Meta-Crisis Doctor's main name. Especially as it's just a confusing name to come across in other articles unrelated to the story. Oimatchstickman ☎ 00:45, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

If all sources have "equal weight" why does one story overrule three other stories? If they all have equal weight in their own specific timelines/versions of events, why is "Corin" being used as the "true" name when it is never used in other media whatsoever? It does not seem to me based on the articles you have linked that using "Corin" is the correct name to use here for this Doctor. And, again, it's a confusing name to use elsewhere when talking about the character as few are going to know who that name refers to. "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is the neutral name here- especially as events in that story in no way match up with the events in Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull. There are numerous, vividly clear differences that make it obvious that they're not connected (differing jobs for Rose and the Meta-Crisis, different names, there is no mention of the baby, and so on). Even the author conceded months ago that they do not take place within the same narrative. Use "Corin" for things related to that specific story, but elsewhere- and ESPECIALLY when writing about events within the Big Finish version of events- he should be "the Meta-Crisis Doctor." Oimatchstickman ☎ 01:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

I am going to dare to join in. The reason, as I can see, for the name being used is because "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a title based on conjecture whereas the name "Corin" has been officially used inside a source therefore confirmed to be used in the universe. To me, it is as simple as that. It is his official name which he has declared he wishes to be referred to as. As fans, that is what we agree with; the character's own idea of who they are rather than the name we try to force on them. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 20:10, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, have you actually read the Target Novel story? --Buffyann23 ☎ 19:15, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Two versions in one timeline

From what I can gather on The Turning of the Tide, it is set vey soon after Journey's End, while the Big Finish audios do not specify a time length. I see no reason while Meta couldn't have decided to call himself "Corin" after moving to the south coast with Rose to work as a doctor and teacher while preparing for their child's birth. Then, by the time of the Big Finish shorts, he's moved back to London to work with UNIT, who still call him "the Doctor" because it was Rose's idea to not call him "the Doctor", but no one else had any reversions on his name. Like, "Corin" is who he is with Rose, and "the Doctor" is who he is with UNIT.

Is this speculative? Yes, but, to my knowledge, it does not contradict any in-universe information, and, frankly, if it ends this debate, then so be it.BananaClownMan ☎ 13:32, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

If that was true then why is there no mention of Rose having been pregnant or any mention of them having a baby in the Big Finish audios? Also in the Big Finish stuff, The Doctor is growing a TARDIS (deleted scene from Journey's end in which Ten gives Tentoo a piece of coral to grow his own and RTD has said was canon). In the Target story he doesn't have any of that. Also in Big Finish The Doctor tells Jackie he still has nightmares that refer to the Time War and taken directly from the Journey's End transcript: "NEW DOCTOR: I look like him and I think like him. Same memories, same thoughts, same everything. Except I've only got one heart. ROSE: Which means? NEW DOCTOR: I'm part human. Specifically, the aging part. I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've only got one life, Rose Tyler. I could spend it with you, if you want." However in the Target Novel he suddenly doesn't remember his past adventures at all. You have to be able to concede that these are some major differences between the stories. So I'm still unclear as to why one story's decision to name him takes preference over any other meta out there. --Buffyann23 ☎ 00:17, October 27, 2019 (UTC)--– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buffyann23 (talk • contribs) . -buffyann23 10/26/19

Then I propose the following: If this is how the wiki is going to consider this timeline, if he is not using the alias Corin in the Big Finish short trips, Corin should not be used in that section and the alias Doctor should be used instead. If he is using two aliases, then the entry should reflect that. I would also request that the first mention on the page not be Corin, but rather Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor as it would be confusing to any users stumbling on the page as a new fan (I would have been, as I used this wiki religiously when I started watching the show), and it could be mentioned later in the opening that in the Target story he took up the name Corin and that would leave users far less confused.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 14:30, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

The thing is that it would've been a very quick turn around for the Big Finish stories- because there is an indication of how quickly they happen after Journey's End. Tony- Jackie and Pete Tyler's son- is 4 years old in the two stories. He would've been around 3 (if time passes at the same rate in that universe though it is said that it runs a little ahead of the prime universe) at the time of Journey's End since Jackie was a few months pregnant at the end of Doomsday, so "Siege of Big Ben" would take place within a year or so of the Meta-Crisis' arrival in that universe. So we'd be looking at a minimum turnaround of 3 months or so after Rose gave birth to the child mentioned in The Turning of the Tide IF the two stories could be connected (which really they can't be). Rose also works at UNIT in the Big Finish stories and is on active duty as she was sent on a mission in "Siege." So no, that conjecture doesn't really hold. (And PS to the mods- it was my understanding that I'd been blocked from a specific page and not all discussions and since not everyone in this discussion seems to have listened to the Big Finish stories I felt I needed to find a way to continue this conversation. I am sorry for being overly zealous in some of my edits, but I don't feel like everything is being taken into account here.) 45.46.209.56^{talk to me} 20:57, October 26, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

Please see your talk page regarding the serious nature of what you have now done, thanks. Shambala108 ☎ 21:16, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

I propose this way of doing it. Have this specific article use "Corin" as the name of the character, and indeed also the article of the story that uses it, but have the rest of the articles talking about him still use "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor". --DCLM ☎ 22:03, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

Just a quick admin note, please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~, as stated in the banner at the top of the editing page. Shambala108 ☎ 23:15, October 26, 2019 (UTC)

As a sidenote, I also read your section regarding names https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Tardis:Character_names in which you state: "By forum consensus, the titles of articles about individual characters should be the name by which the character was most commonly known in the Doctor Who universe." Which in this case would be The Metacrisis Doctor. Therefore the name the author chose to go with for her story, which cannot be connected canonically to Big Finish or Journey's End should only be referenced as to her story. --Buffyann23 ☎ 05:12, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Again, the name "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" is a name based upon conjecture; he was never called that in the Doctor Who universe but he has been called "Corin" in the source discussed earlier. Therefore, that is his canonised name rather than the one we fans gave him as a placeholder in our universe for some eleven years now. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 08:45, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, I would be happy to provide you with multiple links to articles that state otherwise. (Including statements made by the BBC who owns licensing to the character) Not to mention the fact that in the Big Finish Short Trips, which are not tied to the Target Story in any way, Call him The Doctor. Jackie even states and I quote "He didn't want to be Mr. Meta-crisis, he wanted to be The Doctor." and in between both of those short trip stories, he is referred to as "The Doctor" 67 times. --Buffyann23 ☎ 13:25, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

In addition there is also an officially licensed Doctor Who vinyl doll that has been released by the BBC and Titan which states on the box "Meta-Crisis 10th Doctor". So I have to ask again, why one story, which the author has stated that she went a different direction from Big Finish, is being given preference. --Buffyann23 ☎ 13:40, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

One of the policies I cited above is Tardis:Valid sources. When we write in-universe articles, we only allow stories as sources for information. Therefore, author comments or merchandise packaging or the like do not count as sources for in-universe material.

I've already said this above, but I encourage our new users to browse the wiki to see how we write articles. That's the only way to really understand why we do things the way we do and how we are trying to make it all come together. And I would appreciate any help from our experienced users who might be able to come up with any articles/situations similar to this for examples. Shambala108 ☎ 13:47, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Radical suggestion: to compromise we could rename the article "The Doctor (Journey's End)" leaving Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor and Corin as redirects. The title would no longer be based upon conjecture and we can explain in the lead that he chose Corin as a name but then later started being called the Dotcor again. --Borisashton ☎ 13:58, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Borisashton, he didn't choose the name. Rose named him, like a dog. And yes, it even says that in the story. "Like a dog." And since the Target book itself in no way connects to the Big Finish stories that came before it, then the name "Corin" should only be applied to the section regarding the Target Novel. If anyone here had listened to both Big Finish audios, it would be perfectly clear that the stories were in no way connected. That is what we fans keep trying to explain. Because the name shouldn't be preferentially applied to other meta that it does not tie into. He is called a Meta-crisis in Journey's End and he tells Donna "I am The Doctor." In Big Finish, he is also called Meta-Crisis as well as "The Doctor." We are simply asking that someone actually take this stuff into account and listen to the audios and then read the story to understand how they completely differentiate before assigning a specific title based upon one author's decision to name him... like a dog (Jenny Colgan's words not mine)--Buffyann23 ☎ 14:25, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

It would also have been easier if you had read T:VALID from the start. He is never referred to as the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor or the Meta-Crisis Doctor. The only names valid sources have given us is the Doctor and Corin. I think naming the article Corin would be troublesome for readers not in the know to find which is why I have outlined my suggestion above. --Borisashton ☎ 14:46, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Borisashton, I would agree with your compromise of him being called "The Doctor (Journey's End)" but again, the issue on the name "Corin" is that it should only apply to the Target Story because it is not connected to The Big Finish stories that were released and therefore should not be noted as such. Again, I implore you to please listen to the Big Finish stories and you will see clearly that the timelines do not fit between the book and the audios. As much as many of us hate the name and the way Colgan wrote The Doctor and Rose so OOC, we know that we can't completely obliterate it from being documented but we do ask that it only be noted in the specific section to which it applies, (The Target Novel). If Big Finish comes out and states they are documenting the name as well, I will shut up about it. I would be completely upset about it of course, but I would then drop the subject. --Buffyann23 ☎ 15:22, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

This is how much I see it necessary to refer to Corin. Once in the lead, throughout our coverage of The Turning of the Tide, once after that preceding coverage of The Siege of Big Ben to note that he later went by the name the Doctor again, and then in the bts section in the coverage of all his different names. --Borisashton ☎ 15:53, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

I feel like I'm speaking a different language or something here because people keep stating the same thing over and over to my comments. Unless you have listened to the Big Finish audios, then I don't think you should be able to make a rational decision as to where the name is used. Multiple people have already stated that the two verses DO NOT TIE TOGETHER. You can't keep saying "well, he went by a different name later" If he didn't use the name at all in Big Finish and the timelines between the stories don't match up. You can't honestly tell me that you can claim that he changed from one to the other when it is clear THE STORIES DO NOT COINCIDE IN THE SAME VERSE. So again, the only place "Corin" needs to be used is in the paragraph regarding The Target Novel. --Buffyann23 ☎ 16:39, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

In response to Shambala's request for similar scenarios, one I can recall is the incident regarding naming Jack Harkness' page when his name before begin Captain Jack Harkness was revealed in Month 25 and first hinted at in Captain Jack Harkness. Granted, the reason his name has not changed is because his name "Jack Harkness" was decreed as an official name he goes by whereas (as already stated) the names being proposed for this article are based on conjecture, rather than used in official sources. The examples cited also do not distinguish this Doctor (using the title "The Doctor") from the actual Doctor, which we have a page for. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 17:53, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, that was why we said it could be put as "The Doctor(Journey's End)" Okay, let me try to put this to you another way, would you categorize all the Spider-Man movies that have been made as being connected? No, because they are a different director/writer's take on the material. So if you were categorizing a page, you would say "this happened in this version" for the Maguire series, while "such and such happened" in the Garfield series and "whatever else" in the Holland version. You wouldn't say "Well, Spider-Man could shoot webbing directly out of his arms" Because that was only in the Maguire version, while the comics and other movies have him creating the webbing and shooting it from attachments on his wrist. The same can be said in the fact that Big Finish is SEPARATE from the Target Book. Different timelines, different jobs, the fact that Rose is PREGNANT in the book and not the audios should be a BIG CLEAR IN YOUR FACE SIGN and the time differences from Journey's End to where these take place don't match up to where they could coincide with one another either based on the age of Tony Jackie gives in the audios. Again I understand the name is going to be added to the page but put it where it belongs, in the TARGET NOVEL section and NOT to describe The Doctor anywhere else that he was never called that. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buffyann23 (talk • contribs) .

As other users have already stated, the way we treat sources here differs from how other wikis do so, including the Spider-Man wikis (if they are what you are referring to). It is the editor's job to adhere to those specified policies, which in this case primarily revolves around Tardis:Valid sources. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 18:31, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Snivy, it was meant as an example scenario in regards to how the policies on this site state sources are taken into account. Again I feel like everyone I have spoken with is somehow so adamant to keep this name for the main reference that no one is taking any of the points being made into account. How can you specifically consider something as the utmost valid source if you haven't actually listened to the audios or read the book. I am just utterly astounded. --Buffyann23 ☎ 18:41, October 28, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I'm jumping in. And first of all let me say that I have listened to the Big Finish audios and I see no problem with Borisashton's suggestion of the name "Doctor (Journey's End)" (or something similar such as "Meta-crisis Doctor" - without the "tenth" - which, in my opinion, is no different from the name of the "War Doctor" page - he's been called both a meta-crisis and the Doctor in-universe) with redirects for the others. That being said, The name Corin should at least be mentioned in the article such as how Borisashton has suggested. Whether we like it or not, the story did happen. It's a licenced story and therefore canon. Yes, it's conflicting, but as far as I'm aware, it is not explicitly stated in-universe (author's comments are not valid sources other than for behind the scenes info) that it is a alternate timeline or whatever. Do I like the name Corin or the some of the other continuity errors in the story? No. But it doesn't really matter what I like. It's canon and should be mentioned at least once or twice on the page, even if it is using the "according to one account" phrase. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. LauraBatham ☎ 03:53, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand why this Wiki is still debating this. Multiple statements have been made that there is an understanding that conflicts within the canon of the show often occur given the show’s vast scope and the fact that authors do not always agree on how characters would behave and thus how these are handled by writing different sections on how one account plays out and how another account plays out. On this page, many fans have posted numerous examples as to how “The Turning of the Tide” and the Big Finish stories “The Siege of Big Ben” and “Flight into Hull” conflict and cannot be connected. Here is a straight to the point summary of these examples (with some correction of my earlier math which only solidifies the point, really):

In TTotT, the Doctor ( or “Corin”) and Rose live on the South Coast, working as a GP and a teacher respectively. In the Big Finish stories, the Doctor and Rose live in London and both work for UNIT based in Big Ben. The Doctor is a scientific advisor and Rose assists him as well as going out on missions off-base.

In TTotT, Rose refuses to call the Doctor “Doctor” which results in the “name” Corin (not even going to get into how badly done the reasoning for that is here). The Meta-Crisis Doctor DOES NOT CHOOSE THIS NAME himself. Rose gives it to him, saying that she is getting to name him “like a dog.” In Big Finish, the Meta-Crisis Doctor is called “Doctor” (with several instances of “the Doctor”) over 60 times by both Jackie Tyler and other characters (though given the structure of these stories the majority of these are by Jackie).

The timeline for TTotT has scenes set days after Journey’s End and 2 years after. In Big Finish, the stories are set around two to two and a half years after Journey’s End. The reasoning for this is that Jackie was 3 months pregnant when the Doctor spoke to Rose at the end of Doomsday. Stolen Earth/Journey’s End takes place around a year and a half to two years after Jackie would’ve given birth to Tony, making him, of course, 1.5-2 years old at the time of the Meta-Crisis’ arrival in Pete’s World. In both Big Finish stories, Tony is said to be 4 years old by his Mum, Jackie. So, as I said, the Big Finish stories would be set 2 years after his arrival which would obviously set the stories at around the same time which would be impossible given Rose’s own pregnancy in TTotT and her active-duty-ness in the Big Finish version of events.

In TTotT, Rose does not allow “Corin” to even build a new sonic screwdriver for fear he will “get ideas above his station” (again, not even touching the awful characterization here but it is there). In the Big Finish stories he is, again, UNIT’s scientific advisor which would necessitate his working with various gadgets. Big Finish also reinstates the deleted “TARDIS coral” scene as canon as he is working on growing the TARDIS in his lab at UNIT.

In TTotT, Rose is heavily pregnant and gives birth towards the end of the story. Given the timelines of these stories as outlined above, she should either still be pregnant or have recently given birth in the Big Finish stories but neither her pregnancy (as she is out on a mission in “Siege of Big Ben”) nor her child (pretty obvious that Jackie would not be able to stop herself talking about her grandchild if even given the slightest chance) are ever mentioned.

So, with all of these conflicting timelines and characterizations of what the Doctor and Rose’s lives were like after the events of Journey’s End, I do not understand why there is still an argument to be had as to how these two stories may be connected. There are far more big differences than similarities. There are far more arguments for how they are separate than for how they “may” be connected in some way.

In addition, I also poked around the Wiki’s policies a bit, and found the “naming conventions” page where I found this:

“By forum consensus, the titles of articles about individual characters should be the name by which the character was most commonly known in the Doctor Who universe.”

Now, I understand the caveat that “Meta-Crisis Doctor” is never used in-universe so it’s a “conjecture” or whatever. However, the Meta-Crisis Doctor is referred to as “Doctor”/“the Doctor” nearly 70 times in three of the four stories that he has appeared in so far. “Corin” is the invention of one story. So, I would argue that he is mostly known as “Doctor” much like other regenerations of the Time Lord.

Numbered names are rarely used in-universe for the Doctor (the Day of the Doctor novelization even makes the argument that the Doctor does not thing of themselves this way anyways) yet this Wiki still uses titles such as “Tenth Doctor” and “Twelfth Doctor” for not only titles of pages but also uses these “names” in the bodies of the related articles. “Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor” thus seems like a perfectly logical and perfectly sound name for this article and for use in any links or information not related to “The Turning of the Tide.”

Not to mention that coming across the name “Corin” randomly with no context at all could be very confusing for those who have never read or heard of this one story as, again, it really isn’t the name that the character is most known by either in or out of universe.

“Corin” is a name that can be freely used when discussing the events specifically related to “The Turning of the Tide.” It makes sense and you’ll get no argument from me there. However, given the points that I’ve summarized above, it is my firm conviction that the title of this page should remain as “Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor” and that any information not pertaining to the short story should use either the name “Meta-Crisis (Tenth) Doctor” or just plain “Doctor” as it is for all the other pages for regenerations of this character.

I hope that the mods of this site will consider all of these things before arriving at a decision. But in my mind, there is no argument that can be made to connect “The Turning of the Tide” with the Big Finish stories about the Meta-Crisis Doctor.

Currently I am working on detailed summaries of both “The Siege of Big Ben” (already added) and “Flight Into Hull" (a work in progress). I hope that these summaries will help those who have not actually listened to these stories to better understand why there is no way that they could be connected to this new short story. Oimatchstickman ☎ 04:05, October 29, 2019 (UTC)oimatchstickman

It's still a debate because it hasn't been resolved yet. This is a big wiki, so it is up to the admins to make final decisions on debates like this. Shambala108 ☎ 04:08, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

This is in response to User:BananaClownMan from the beginning of the thread and User:Borisashton, but also to add to general discussion. I apologize if this is in the wrong space. I would like to add that we do have a definitive time for the Big Finish audios. In Journey's End, Jackie says Pete is on the nursery run. According to my research, nursery is for three and four year olds in the United Kingdom. Since in the audios Jackie mentions Rose having no A-levels to Beryl, it is reasonable to assume that Pete's World uses the same education system. In the Big Finish short trips, it's stated that Tony is four, so it is reasonable to take the audios as happening within the year of Journey's End. That is before Rose gets pregnant (she gives birth at two years), and that would make sense because Jackie never mentions having a grandchild. And, really, do any of us believe that Jackie Tyler would tell two half hour stories without mentioning a grandchild at all?

But then in the audios, the Doctor (as he is referred to in the audios and Journey's End and not Corin) is growing a TARDIS. This is an in-universe conflict. In Turning, Rose wouldn't let Corin (as he is referred to in Turning and not in Seige/Flight) build any sort of technology. Corin never gets beyond attempting to build a sonic. According to Turning:

'What is it?' said Corin, and Rose bit her lip. He knew, right, didn't he? He knew he didn't have his sonic, or a TARDIS or anything he needed to do clever jiggery-pokery stuff. She didn't want him getting... ideas above his station, she supposed.

And later:

Oh curses, for his screwdriver. He'd tried to build one, but Rose had told him off for it and distracted him and he'd abandoned the project. Now he truly wished he hadn't.

I still maintain that the two should be handled as conflicting accounts (According to one source, and according to another source) based on this evidence. In one possible timeline, Rose and the Meta-crisis rent a cabin in Norway and he takes up the name Corin, and so on with the events of The Turning of the Tide. In a second possible timeline, the Doctor and Rose are working for UNIT with him as the Scientific Advisor and Rose assisting him and working as a field agent, they attempt to grow a TARDIS, and the events proceed according to Siege of Big Ben and Flight Into Hull. Corin should rightly be listed as an alias, but should not be regarded as the main alias over the Doctor. Both have equal value in their respective timelines.--Gingergallifreyan125 ☎ 05:17, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I need to post some guidelines/rules for posting here.

Do not start a new heading if you are continuing the same topic.
Do not move/change/remove your post if another user has posted after yours.
New posts go at the bottom/end of the discussion. If you are replying to someone further up, you can use their name to show which message you are responding to.

Shambala108 ☎ 04:17, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how it can be a real debate then if the "admins make the final decisions". We are providing contextual facts taken directly from the Big Finish audios, proving the stories don't tie together. That would be like someone deciding your username is now your actual name in real life because you used it on here. Which is absurd right? So why would you assign a specific name to an entire page with other references that NEVER used it? --Buffyann23 ☎ 05:23, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

I feel like I need to butt in again. What Buffyann23 says makes a lot of sense, which some of you seem to be dismissing completely. Also, we had the same similar discussion on the Doc Holliday page. I suggested to rename the page "John Holliday" based on the novel of the TV story he appears in and the decision was to go by the name most people knew him as, which was "Doc Holliday" despite "Doc" not being his actual name. And here you are suggesting that it doesn't actually matter because that ONE story chose a different name, which is not what people know him by. If I were to tell someone online that "Corin said [something]", I can bet you all that 87% of the replies would be "Who???". But if I said "Meta-Crisis said [something]" every single one would know who I was talking about. Food for thought. --DCLM ☎ 07:16, October 29, 2019 (UTC)

And let me make it clear that I am not opposed to any alternative to the naming of this article. Whether it's naming this article "The Doctor (Journey's End)" and just keeping "Corin" as the first word, the name, of the article with aliases, or naming the article "Corin" with every other article, except the novel using "Corin", using "Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor" and redirecting to "Corin" (which is indeed the same thing done with "The General" (redirecting to "Kenossium")). Just DON'T have every single reference on this Wiki refer to him as "Corin", as I can guarantee that many people looking through the Wikia will have a problem with that. --DCLM ☎ 07:35, October 29, 2019 (UTC)