If this thread's title doesn't specify it's spoilery, don't bring any up.
I was just looking through the Third Doctor companions template and I realised that Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart, Liz Shaw, John Benton and Mike Yates were on the list under television companions. Is this really correct? I understand how they were the equivalent of companions during the exile to Earth, but they aren't really companions. The Doctor's companions are those that travel with him in the TARDIS, something they never did onscreen. I know it is really a matter of debate, but from my point of view at least, Vincent van Gogh is more of a companion than Lethbridge-Stewart. These characters are recurring characters. Not all recurring characters are companions and not all companions are recurring characters, but I think we should keep the two seperate. I propose we remove Lethbridge-Stewart and Benton from the template and move Liz and Mike to prose companions, because they did TARDIs-travel in the PDAs and MAs respectively. Bigredrabbit 04:22, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
Travelling in the TARDIS has nothing to do with being a companion. Really, if someone is part of the main cast for more than an episode than they are a companion. Characters like Van Gogh and Duggan are certainly not companions. Besides, the Brigadier did travel in the TARDIS in Mawdryn UndeadIcecreamdif 19:55, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
- The Brigadier did travel in the TARDIS, with the Fifth Doctor, not the Third. The point I'm trying to make is "companion" isn't a Doctor Who term for "recurring character". "Companions" are those who travel with the Doctor in his TARDIS, be they recurring or one-off characters. I myself don't really see van Gogh and Duggan as companions because its one small journey, much like the Brigadier's in Mawdryn Undead. By all means, create a recurring characters section or something, but slamming them all in as companions is hardly correct. Bigredrabbit 00:31, August 7, 2011 (UTC)
Well, in-universe, it is hardly likely that there is an exact definition of companion. The Doctor will often call his friends companions, but there is no reason that he would distinguish between friends who don't travel in the TARDIS, friends who do travel in it, people who only go on one trip, etc. The only possible way to define a companion is to give it an out of universe definition. In my opinion, the best definition for a companion would be a character who is part of the main cast for more than one consecutive episode, excluding two parters. That definition would exclude characters like Astrid and Adelaide Brooke, but would include characters like the Brigadier and Liz Shaw. The Brigadier also travelled in the TARDIS in The Three Doctors, although the TARDIS wasn't travelling under its own power.Icecreamdif 03:04, August 7, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm still not convinced. Throughout multiple sources, in-universe and real-world alike, it is stated that the Doctor's companions are those that travel through time and space with him in his TARDIS. If everyone who reappears is a companion, then the Master, Lytton and Captain Avery are companions, which is hardly correct. I'd really like for an admin or at least a third party to step in so that one or possibly none of us can get an upper hand and add some more zest (zest?) to this debate. I, much like you, don't think that Astrid and Adelaid and Christina are companions, they're just one-off allies. Expanding the term to those who make reappearances in multi-episode stories is a bad idea because, by these means, Richard Mace, Tallulah and Astra are companions, just to name three. And the Brigadier's travel in The Three Doctors is no more of an adventure of those of van Gogh and Duggan. Bigredrabbit 10:16, August 7, 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't count Lyttton or Avery, because the definition I suggested said that they have to be in consecutive episodes, and obviously characters in multi-part stories don't count, or almost every character in the classic series would be a companion. To exclude the Master, I will ammend my definition to say that they also have to be an ally of the Doctor's. The Brigadier, Sergeant Benton, and Captain Yates were in most episodes for the Third Doctor's entire tenure, so why shouldn't they be considered companions? Although those characters are disputable as companions, Liz is almost universally considered as a companion, even though she never even entered the TARDIS. And, should we say that Jo wasn't a companion until Colony in Space, even though she had done everything else that a companion does in her episodes before that. There is really no reason to say that travelling in the TARDIS is necessary to be a companion.Icecreamdif 14:25, August 7, 2011 (UTC)
I understand what you're suggesting now and I totally get why Liz, Lethbridge-Stewart, Benton and Mike would be considered companions. Whilst I don't know if I still agree with this, I would disagree that many of the Tenth Doctor's so-called companions (i.e. Astrid Peth, Tish Jones, Francine Jones, Clive Jones, Leo Jones, Sylvia Noble, Wilfred Mott, Jackson Lake, Rosita Farisi, Christina de Souza and Adelaide Brooke (especially those last four)). Although the UNIT people could well be considered companions, I still stick by my claim that the aforementioned Tenth Doctor companions are not. I think that this wiki should establish a definition of companion so that things like this can be prevented in future. Bigredrabbit 07:42, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
Oh, yeah. That would stop the argument.Boblipton 11:17, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
It's not for the wiki to decided upon the definition. You need an in-universe source for complete clarity as even the opinion someone like JNT isn't gospel. Not sure why you're saying a trip in the TARDIS is on the companion check-list. Liz Shaw is a companion, is she not? Yet she only travels in the TARDIS in The Wages of Sin.--Skittles the hog - talk 11:48, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
I personally don't count the UNIT soliders as companions, but, I Do count Liz Shaw as a companion because she is the same as a companion throughout season 7. I don't count the Brig because he's at most a friend of the doctor (if he was a companion why isn't he listed as a companion in "The Web of Fear"?)– The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joe.kearney (talk • contribs) .
Because his appearances in The Web of Fear, The Invasion, Terror of the Zygons and Battlefield (etc. ?) are just one-offs. In season 7, he is in every story and seems to do a damn sight more for the Doctor than Liz ever did.--Skittles the hog - talk 15:31, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
I think that the UNIT people should be considered companions, but the Tenth Doctor examples shouldn't. The characters in the 2009 specials were the same as any other characters who appear in only one episode. If they are companions, then there are new companions in every episode. The families of companions are also recurring characters rather than companions, because the Doctor meets them when he is on Earth, but not in multiple consecutive episodes. That would be like saying that Borua is a companion.Icecreamdif 19:47, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
Can we all agree that 'Companion' is, as the article in the Wiki states, an ill-defined term and that while we each may have our individual preferences as to what constitutes a companion, it's just an exercise in fanwanking? I can understand why people like to argue it, but I'm more interested in questions like why everyone seems to like longer words like "assist" instead of "help" or " or "attempt" instead of "try." So long as we agree it's all an exercise in personal taste, it's fine by me, but the true believer aspect occasionally on display saddens me.Boblipton 19:57, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
Well, since we have different categories and boxes for companions, we probably should come up with some kind of definition for it.Icecreamdif 21:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
I'm starting to agree more with Icecreamdif. If we are going to continue extensively using the term "companion" on this wiki, some kind of definition better than the one we have now needs to be established. I get how there are no in-universe sources to confirm anyone's personal theories, but surely, if we are going to have companion templates, companion categories, identify "companions" as such in their articles, in the Doctors's articles and TV story articles, then we need to be sure that we all have the same idea on what a companion is. Yes, it is fanwanking, but I think it is much more logical and likely for this wiki to establish a guide for its users on what is and isn't a companion than abolishing the term altogether, which is a little bit far-fetched anyway. Just as the decision was passed that Human is to be spelled human here, without any official confirmation of either term, we need to determine which of Lethbridge-Stewart, Liz, Benton, Mike, Astrid, Martha's family, Donna's family, Jackson, Rosita, Christina and Adelaide are and aren't companions. No, this won't stop the debate, it shall rage on, unstoppable for years. But if the wiki says 'she's a companion', 'he isn't', then those who don't see much point in arguing it without official confirmation will be able to rest as pro-Wilfred-companionship and anti-Benton-companionship followers will be able to debate whether these guidelines should be changed. I don't think that the Tenth Doctor's pseudo-companions should be on the list, but I suppose I'll be a bit leaning on the UNIT people. If anyone disagrees with this, then they can argue for their cause, but, as I've probably said a million times in this paragraph, users need to know what the wiki considers companions.. Bigredrabbit 06:35, August 9, 2011 (UTC)
- Just out of curiosity, is there any reason that you've started yet another discussion on this subject? Did you think that your points were So Incredibly Novel that you needed to make your own thread? It's not like we as a community have never wrestled with this issue before. (See Forum:Who counts as a companion?, Forum:Companions - who counts?, just for a start.) And every time we've tried, we've come to no conclusion whatsoever. The reason is because there is no in-universe definition of the term. But the reason we must have an article on the term is because the Doctor, at various points, uses the word. So it exists in-universe without definition. We just have to live with that. And that's why the article at companion is written as it is. It emphasises in its first sentence a phrase the Doctor has said over and over again of his companion-of-the-moment — they're his best friends. Not "they've travelled with him", not "they've appeared in more than one adventure with him". Just that they're friends, and that they broadly know that he's got the ability to travel through time and space. That covers just about everyone — certainly all the 2009 special people, certainly the major UNIT figures, certainly a number of the one-off comic companions.
- I'd also urge that you not get too hung up on the navigation boxes and categories. They aren't expressions of "the policy of the wiki". They're just there to aid navigation. They're deliberately broad churches, so that no matter what one's personal definition of a companion, one will be able to easily travel between pages.
- Please remember that it is not up to us to force a definition on our readers, when the narrative itself doesn't. The article at companion makes this abundantly clear, and even points to several discussions we as a community have had. There's no way that the average user of the site, having read that article thoroughly, could possibly believe that we as a community are imposing any sort of definition. So, to the extent that we have a policy on companions, it is not to have a policy.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ <span style="">12:47:15 Tue 09 Aug 2011
- Oh, I know its been debated a hundred times before, and really this was about Benton and Mike, although I didn't really make that very clear. I just found it a bit odd how everywhere on this wiki it was said that they were companions of the Doctor, when really they were usually quite minor characters in their stories. I mean, the Doctor talked to Benton what, like five times in the whole series? (OK, I know it must've happened a bit more than that). As the situation escalated, I spose I just sort of went crazy with the whole idea and yeah, brought up things that obviously no one else agrees with. I shall now stop posting on this thread, unless of course something really interesting happens on it, which it probably won't. Bigredrabbit 08:17, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there are good reasons to think Mike and Benton companions. From a purely fictional standpoint, you'd have to give it to Mike because of his status with the Fourth Doctor in audio. He's unambiguously the Fourth Doctor's AudioGo companion. No question. Also, from a behind-the-scenes perspective, Richard Franklin was contracted for the whole of season 8. In my mind, anyone who receives a seasonal contract, and is on the side of the Doctor, is a companion. Benton qualifies for a number of reasons, I think. Like Franklin, John Levene was contracted for season 8. But he also
- has the record for most appearances of a UNIT soldier other than the Brig.
- definitely knew about and practically witnessed regeneration on television (Mike only got that in other media.)
- is the only UNIT soldier other than the Brig to work with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Doctors.
- sometimes actually solved or at least grasped the problem the Doctor was having in a particular serial. He basically saves the day in Robot, and he understands a hell of a lot more about what's going on in The Three Doctors than the Brig.
- wasn't just background Soldier #1. He frequently got subplots, just like companions do. Check out The Daemons, The Mind of Evil, The Three Doctors, Robot, Day of the Daleks and even his initial performance in The Invasion. He tends to have a specific narrative function, and generally helps to facilitate some part of the story's resolution.
- was the first member of UNIT to enter the Doctor's TARDIS, and has a proper "bigger on the inside moment".
- made a big enough impression on the Second Doctor that he immediately placed Benton after just The Invasion
- is the only recurring UNIT member, other than Harry, to be in a serial without the Brig in the classic era (The Android Invasion)
- is the only UNIT member, other than the Brig and the Doctor, to singlehandedly capture the Master
- was significant enough to the Master that he knew Benton's name.
- is the only UNIT member, other than the Brig and the Doctor, to directly engage the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Autons, the Master, Omega, and the Zygons.
- directly knew eight other companions
- was in far more episodes than the majority of "unambiguous" companions of the 1970s and 1980s.
- The case for Yates might well have been tenuous until his recent AudioGo renaissance, but Benton's a shoo-in, having been around from season 6 to season 13. I think you're being quite disingenuous to say that the Doctor "talked to Benton five times". Benton had a lot more screen time than you're allowing.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ <span style="">05:12:58 Thu 11 Aug 2011- I got to wondering about the ubiquity of Benton, and it turns out he was in 65 episodes of DW (John Levene obviously being in more than that, since he was a creature performer before Benton). By way of comparison, Tegan was only in 67 (including Caves part 4). So he's effectively equal to the longest-running (by consecutive contracted time) companion. SJS was only in 81 eps; Katy Manning in 77. Romana II is far behind at 40, and Romana I is only 26, so Benton's basically the same as the entire character of Romana. Sophie Aldred is at an almost laughable 31 — laughable because the only 60s companions to do worse were Dodo and Katarina. The only people seriously ahead of him are Jamie, the Brig, and the first four Doctors (Davison's classic era count is in "the Benton ballpark" at 69, excluding Logopolis, while Six and Seven are dwarfed by the lowly Wendy Padbury's output, and can't be considered really serious contributors to DW's overall televised output.)
- Well, there are good reasons to think Mike and Benton companions. From a purely fictional standpoint, you'd have to give it to Mike because of his status with the Fourth Doctor in audio. He's unambiguously the Fourth Doctor's AudioGo companion. No question. Also, from a behind-the-scenes perspective, Richard Franklin was contracted for the whole of season 8. In my mind, anyone who receives a seasonal contract, and is on the side of the Doctor, is a companion. Benton qualifies for a number of reasons, I think. Like Franklin, John Levene was contracted for season 8. But he also
- Oh, I know its been debated a hundred times before, and really this was about Benton and Mike, although I didn't really make that very clear. I just found it a bit odd how everywhere on this wiki it was said that they were companions of the Doctor, when really they were usually quite minor characters in their stories. I mean, the Doctor talked to Benton what, like five times in the whole series? (OK, I know it must've happened a bit more than that). As the situation escalated, I spose I just sort of went crazy with the whole idea and yeah, brought up things that obviously no one else agrees with. I shall now stop posting on this thread, unless of course something really interesting happens on it, which it probably won't. Bigredrabbit 08:17, August 10, 2011 (UTC)
What about Yates? 2.29.64.30 10:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
- As explained above, Yates is definitely a companion on the basis of his AudioGo work with the Fourth Doctor. The only question about him is whether you could actually call him a companion of the Third Doctor. I'd say yes — especially when you throw in novels — but others aren't so sure. In any case we're mostly only talking about placement in a navbox, which needs to take the broadest possible view so as to be useful to the greatest number of readers. As has been explained thoroughly at companion and indeed in notes on the navbox itself, there is no such thing as a definitive list of companions.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ <span style="">15:20:55 Fri 26 Aug 2011
If Captain Yates is considered a Third Doctor companion because he was a Fourth Doctor companion and was in a lot of Third Doctor episodes, then shouldn't Mickey be considered a Ninth Doctor companion? He was a Tenth Doctor companion, and was in about halff of the Ninth Doctor's episodes.Icecreamdif 19:05, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
- You might want to try reading the paragraph directly above yours before replying to it. CzechOut is not saying Yates is a 3rd Doctor companion because he's a 4th Doctor companion. He's saying Yates is probably a 3rd Doctor companion because of the novels, but it's arguable. --173.228.85.35 03:39, August 27, 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't read the novels. I thought he was saying that Yates was a Fourth Doctor companion in the novels.Icecreamdif 03:49, August 27, 2011 (UTC)
- He was saying that Yates was a 4th Doctor companion because of the AudioGO audios, not the novels. But in the very next sentence, he says that this doesn't mean he was a 3rd Doctor companion, which he answers in the next sentence by throwing in the novels. How you got from that to he was a 3rd Doctor companion because he was a 4th Doctor companion, I have no idea, since it's pretty much the exact opposite of what he said, in very clear and simple sentences. --173.228.85.35 03:08, August 28, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I reread it and I get the point now. I only follow the tv shows, so all the rest sort of blends together for me. Upon rereading, I realize that he was a fourth doctor companion in a different spinoff story from when he was a third doctor companion.Icecreamdif 22:13, August 29, 2011 (UTC)
- Just be glad Reeltime couldn't get him for Downtime, or we'd have to argue about whether he's also a Sarah Jane companion… --173.228.85.35 03:27, August 30, 2011 (UTC)
Well he's over 18, so I doubt it.Icecreamdif 04:15, August 30, 2011 (UTC)