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i was wondering about death in the whoniverse. Torchwood series one exhibits exsitensialist themes yet series two featured that whole grim reaper monster durac. What was durac meant to be where did he come from he used owen to crossover but from where another dimension possibly hell was he satan I know alot of people think that position in the whoniverse is taken by the beast but still the fact he was coming from presumbly the afterlife seems to make him a candidate too. What was the darkness owen was in meant to be in was it hell remember some depictions of hell are just that nothing not all are the fire and brimestone thing. What has made durac seem very wierd to me is unlike any other beast in doctor who he cannot be explained away as something scientific okay the beast wasn't explained as an alien either but he could be but durac was coming from the afterlife he wasn't just some powerful alien found on a planet with seemingly supernatural qualities he seems like the grim reaper from traditionall myths but its never said that he was and in fact if anything it seems like he is not as obviously the grim reaper is always there in any myths that feature him where as durac was trying to crossover from somewhere else and had to be stopped. If anyone has any ideas on what durac actually was please let me hear them. Winehousefan, July 29 2010 [UTC
The grim reaper and Satanin legend are always dipicted as beig two different beings. I think it is pretty clear that The Beast was Satan, horned demon locked away before time, hs language was so old not even the TARDIS could translate.
He directly said he was the origin if the image and name of Satan, which would go on to be reinterpreted and what not by many species. Durac is, without a doubt, THE very manifestation of Death itself in the Whoniverse.
It adds to the Whoniverse's overall mythology and mystery. We have seen Satan in Doctor Who, Death in Torchwood, and Satan refered to God as truly existing in the Whoniverse, and mentioned that he had... armies. Very interesting.
I find the two mentioning enteties two of the greatest enemies in the Whoniverse - they're part of true legend, they're unexplainable, and partof the mythology. One might say Durac came from... beyond. But really, it's a huge mystery. The place Owen went is, in thoery, the empty space of non-existence, it's the world of the dead.
About time we discussed such mysteries! I think they're not talked about much because, in truth, not even the writers could explain it. for the story. But nonetheless, it's a very interesting topic! Delton Menace 22:07, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
It's worth pointing out that in the Whoniverse, there are two opposing forces of ultimate good and evil: The Doctor and the Daleks. Sorryaboutthatchief 01:24, May 26, 2011 (UTC)
- The Doctor isn't an omnipotent God of Ultimate Good; he's a struggling Hero of 1000^H^H^H^H13 Faces, which is a much more interesting character. And as for the Daleks--as the Doctor said to Sam, "We all have to be Daleks sometimes. It's just a matter of knowing when you really don't have any choice." And even Daleks can sometimes make that choice (as Caan and Sec each did in their last appearances). Only Davros is irredeemably evil, but he's no more than a final boss fight, not Satan himself.
- Getting back to the interesting original post that you resurrected from death (or at least from duroc), after almost a year: I don't think Duroc is Death. We know who Death is, and Duroc seems to be a much weaker and more local entity.
- Death (like Pain, Time, etc.) is an Eternal, worshipped by the Gallifreyans and other "higher races" as a god and an anthropomorphic personification of a concept. This is a pretty solid bit of continuity; the Eternals appeared on TV, RTD wrote about them in a DWA story, and RTD's NA novel Damaged Goods directly talked about different Gallifreyans' ways of worshipping Death. It's hard to imagine that Duroc even anywhere near her league, much less the same entity.
- Ah, but forget not that Adam may have been an eternal, and Torchwood defeated him. That puts at least Duroc and Adam in the same league. Sorryaboutthatchief 04:50, May 27, 2011 (UTC)
- I suspect there are all kinds of local personifications of death (and pain, etc.), worshipped by lower races (like humans and weevils) who can't sense the Eternals. Maybe Duroc's just an opportunist (like the Osirians, etc.), but maybe he's her local Champion among the lower races near Earth (as the Master is her champion among the higher races), or an avatar, or even a force called into existence by the weevils' weak or unfocused worship.
- As for being one of the "greatest enemies in the Whoniverse": To the Gallifreyans, while the Eternals are gods, the Guardians are (collectively) _the_ God. Rassilon believed that it was beyond the power of even the Time Lords to know more than 2 faces (the Black and White Guardians) of the Six-Fold God. Even the Eternals (including Death) acknowledge the Guardians as something greater than themselves.
- Also, even the lowest of the powerful beings in the Whoniverse are so far beyond the understanding of present-day humans that we can't be expected to make too much sense out of them. If there is a true greatest enemy in the Whoniverse, it's probably something we can't even conceive of.
- But the cool thing about the Whoniverse is that there's no strict hierarchy of omnipotence. Maybe "lower races" like us can't understand what Abaddon is, but Jack still killed him. For that matter, one of us, Davros (yes, the Kaleds were a lower race too) had the ability to destroy all of reality using only hand-made technology, which even the Black Guardian isn't able to do. --99.33.24.89 06:07, May 26, 2011 (UTC)
- That is a good point. And as morbid as it may be, I think the Doctor may actually like it that way. The idea that the lowliest person could threaten on such a scale (Davros is again a perfect example: he started as a mere Kaled scientist, not even believing life could exist away from Skaro, and now he has threatened literally everything) seems like his kind of ideal. And it also reminds him that no matter how great the danger, he can, at least theoretically, stop it. Sorryaboutthatchief 04:54, May 27, 2011 (UTC)
- I was actually thinking more in terms of the fact that he'll never get done saving the universe (because a new Davros can arise from anywhere), and it'll never stop being worth saving (because a new Donna can too), and the fact that it means he won't be a Lonely God forever, and so on, and the fact that it implies that there's no fixed "caste hierarchy" of the universe (which he'd have to find fundamentally unfair).
- But I like your emphasis better. Davros's apotheosis--unlike Rose's, Jack's, or Donna's--was purely driven by his own willpower, intelligence, hard work, willingness to explore anything no matter where it might lead, and refusal to ever give up. All of those are either his favorite qualities of humans or his favorite qualities of himself. --99.33.24.89 04:53, May 28, 2011 (UTC)