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Forum:Deleted Scenes and Rule 4 By Proxy (view source)
Revision as of 18:24, 1 May 2023
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I think there's a difference between something that is written and released in a literary universe that resembles the DWU we normally talk about but isn't intended by its creators to be, and something that might have once been intended for the actual factual DWU but was then '''''purposefully erased from the DWU'''''. Allowing people to later get a look behind the curtain, so to speak, see how the sausage is made, shouldn't change that this decision was made, even if later people want to reference it. (Now, I note that this ''particular'' reasoning doesn't apply to P.S., but it ''does'' apply to every other case you've discussed here.) And we could go back and amend R4bp again, which I think was a mistake and we're going to have to fix eventually. But the other option is just to say that these aren't "real" releases for the content, the content will never "really" be released, because it was purposefully deleted. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:06, 1 May 2023 (UTC) | I think there's a difference between something that is written and released in a literary universe that resembles the DWU we normally talk about but isn't intended by its creators to be, and something that might have once been intended for the actual factual DWU but was then '''''purposefully erased from the DWU'''''. Allowing people to later get a look behind the curtain, so to speak, see how the sausage is made, shouldn't change that this decision was made, even if later people want to reference it. (Now, I note that this ''particular'' reasoning doesn't apply to P.S., but it ''does'' apply to every other case you've discussed here.) And we could go back and amend R4bp again, which I think was a mistake and we're going to have to fix eventually. But the other option is just to say that these aren't "real" releases for the content, the content will never "really" be released, because it was purposefully deleted. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:06, 1 May 2023 (UTC) | ||
Here's my opinion on all of this (before I go back to my real world obligations). In my mind, the trouble with deleted scenes as far as our four little rules are concerned lies in Rule 4. Under most circumstances, a deleted scene that has seen an official release already satisfies Rules 1 and 3. For Rule 1, even if they are short or crude in nature, I would say a deleted scene could be described as a complete work of fiction for our purposes. If a scene is released without VFX, I would be more concerned about the Rule 1 of it all. Looking specifically to the ''Journey's End'' deleted scene, it is a completely filmed scene --a complete work of fiction --despite not having music or polished sound mixing. It's not just a factoid in isolation, it is an exchange of dialogue. It was released through official avenues (coming out on the DVD) and thus satisfies Rule 3. As for Rule 4, I want to be clear that RTD's musings do not and should not on their own satisfy Rule 4. I believe that it's ''The Siege of Big Ben'' that brings it in through R4BP. To note one of the potential slippery-slopes that this standard could lead to, a novelization including a deleted scene should not R4BP a deleted scene into validity --for the purposes of Wikification, those scenes could simply be cited INSTEAD of the deleted scene, but moreover I think that it would be in ignorance of the nature of the novelization process. I believe it takes a firm intention to bring something in through R4BP. Turning to the Rule 1 question for P.S., which I assume is the only contention, I actually think that one's easier. It's not like we were simply given the storyboards out in a Tweet --it's an animated video with specially commissioned voiceover from Arthur Darvill. The storyboards were edited together, vaguely animated, and included animated dialogue, audio foley, and voiceover to make a complete and discreet work of fiction. It is a complete work of fiction, albeit one in the medium it was not intended to be released in. Rule 3 is similarly easy, it was released officially. I actually do wonder if you even need R4BP to validate this, but I think it is pretty evident that we've got the stories necessary to bring it in through R4BP. The Pilot Episode passes Rules 1-3, but it fails Rule 4. A Rule 4 by Proxy argument could be used to bring it in, but I am not convinced that an off-handed reference to a previous take on the Doctor's backstory constitutes bringing the entirety of the Pilot Episode into the DWU. Our official position on the matter should be that '''Deleted Scenes are invalid due to a failure of passing Rule 4. Even when they were released as deleted scenes, they are (typically) presented as not intended to be legitimate contributions to the DWU. They may be validated through Rule 4 By Proxy, but a novelization of the original work in question including the deleted scene would not be sufficient to do so.''' [[User:NoNotTheMemes|NoNotTheMemes]] [[User talk:NoNotTheMemes|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:24, 1 May 2023 (UTC) | |||