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Showing ownership with words ending in Z[[edit source]]
I'd like to propose changing the current policy, of which I've just become aware, of using only an apostrophe after the letter Z to show ownership to instead using an apostrophe followed by S. That is, Yaz's rather than Yaz'. Whilst both forms are acceptable, Merriam-Webster recommends z's and, indeed, if you search the wiki you'll find that the usage of "Yaz's" is already widespread. Additionally, the alternative name for Case File is Yaz's Case File, "Lopez's" is used in Lucifer Rising and "Fitz's" is used prolifically in the books, namely The Taint, Demontage and Unnatural History (which are the ones I have just checked). -- Saxon (✉️) 00:46, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, the correct place for changing policy of this nature is Board:The Panopticon, although I will note my agreement to your point here. --Borisashton ☎ 00:50, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- What is the British method? Shambala108 ☎ 00:51, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- I'll just note that Merriam-Webster don't recommend z's in the link you shared, they said that either can be used, but 's is more common. (In fact they were referring to both words ending in 's' and in 'z' there) Furthermore, Merriam-Webster are an American company. I think what matters here is how it's said. If the 's is pronounced, it should be written. So generally I'd agree that it should be written [word]z's, as generally the 's' is pronounced. It'd be great to find what an authoritative source on British English says, though. Danochy ☎ 01:09, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- No clear consensus. Lexico (Oxford) doesn't mention them but says that if it was spelled "Yas" we'd add the "'s". It also seems to suggest "Fez's" is correct. U of Sussex has no comment at all and also suggests that "Fez's" is correct. Plain English (probably not the most neutral source, but still) says to add "'s" to both. U of Melbourne (so Australia, but w/e) says both are acceptable. And the BBC itself doesn't comment on either, but says for singular nouns that end in "s" (not z,x, etc, just "s"), either are acceptable. Najawin ☎ 01:13, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- There is as strong a case for only using ' when it's a plural possessive as there is for our current policy. This usage is widespread on the wiki at the moment, as pointed out. I agree this merits further investigation, though: is there a clear preference in British English for either convention? And what does that BBC source say about x and z endings?
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 02:41, June 22, 2020 (UTC)- It seems that Oxford Dictionary calls for 's (see link) — "With personal names that end in -s: add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud" — but I can't seem to find the primary source for the quotation.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 02:53, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- It seems that Oxford Dictionary calls for 's (see link) — "With personal names that end in -s: add an apostrophe plus s when you would naturally pronounce an extra s if you said the word out loud" — but I can't seem to find the primary source for the quotation.
- There is as strong a case for only using ' when it's a plural possessive as there is for our current policy. This usage is widespread on the wiki at the moment, as pointed out. I agree this merits further investigation, though: is there a clear preference in British English for either convention? And what does that BBC source say about x and z endings?
- No clear consensus. Lexico (Oxford) doesn't mention them but says that if it was spelled "Yas" we'd add the "'s". It also seems to suggest "Fez's" is correct. U of Sussex has no comment at all and also suggests that "Fez's" is correct. Plain English (probably not the most neutral source, but still) says to add "'s" to both. U of Melbourne (so Australia, but w/e) says both are acceptable. And the BBC itself doesn't comment on either, but says for singular nouns that end in "s" (not z,x, etc, just "s"), either are acceptable. Najawin ☎ 01:13, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
So the BBC source stopped updating in 2014 with the switch to the new site, and the new site doesn't take questions. Glancing around I found two other relevant questions. The first says that either is acceptable for names that end in 's', makes no comment about singular nouns that end in 's', or words that end in 'z', etc, but notes that "s'" is more formal. The second explicitly makes clear that usage is changing but gives some rules of thumb. "Most current guides" to British English, according to the BBC, say that "Jones's" would be correct. However, names from the ancient world just use an apostrophe, and words that sound like "iz" at the end just use an apostrophe as well. This, once again, does not help the broader issue of "fez" and "Yaz" specifically, but does suggest that "Yaz's" would be correct if it was spelt "Yas".
And SOTO, the quote you're talking about can be found if you click my Lexico link. Lexico is Oxford.Najawin ☎ 02:58, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- The University of Sussex seems to give the most actionable advice, even if you put apostrophe s when you would naturally pronounce it as a separate syllable is a bit circular, particularly if there are regional differences in pronunciation. But ending in an "iz" or "eez" sound could also work, if we expand that rule to include s and z as ending letters anyhow. This would leave TARDIS's, fez's, Yaz's out, but count Socrates' (not for being ancient, but for the final sound in his name). Not sure bringing x in even makes sense with this rule, as the Six doesn't end in an "iz" sound but an "iks". It's a starting point, anyhow, if we are going to depart from the current rule. I will note that the current rule is probably easiest to enforce, even if it doesn't make as much sense.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 03:30, June 22, 2020 (UTC)- BBC News consistently uses "Netflix's" in their headlines.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 03:44, June 22, 2020 (UTC)- And "Strax's" is used in Strax's Guide to the Galaxy. The rule that I have always used when writing is writing as it's pronounced - so it would be Jones's, Rameses' and Yaz's. -- Saxon (✉️) 08:41, June 22, 2020 (UTC)
- BBC News consistently uses "Netflix's" in their headlines.