Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Closing Time

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This page is for discussing the ways in which Closing Time doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.

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• When did the Cybermen start converting whole bodies instead of just removing the brain and putting it into a cybernetic body? Was it not implied in Cyberwoman that they only started converting whole bodies in the Battle of Canary Wharf because they were losing and they needed soldiers quickly?

This ship was in similar straits - crashed for centuries, low on power, needed crew immediately. So it's reasonable to assume they'd take the same shortcuts.

Possibly more importantly, these are Mondasian Cyberman, not Cybusmen, so you have to look to the classic series for how they work, not the new series. (You'd also have to know which of the many branches of the Cyber race they came from.)

• The Doctor has aged some 200 years since the start of his current regeneration, but shows no signs of ageing.

Maybe he moisturised.

Time Lords age more slowly than humans. The First Doctor was around 500, and he didn't look nearly that old.

He looked 50 or 60 years old. If he was 500 then this Doctor should look about 20 years older.

We really don't know enough about how Time Lords age to say that. Maybe later bodies age more slowly. Maybe the Doctor just took efforts to prevent himself from aging much. A lot can happen in 200 years, especially when you have access to a virtually unlimited amount of technology.

It has been stated before that a Time lord doesn't age after their first regeneration, and that he/she could "live forever, baring accidents" in a single incarnation. The Tenth doctor also said in school reunion, "i don't age, i regenerate". The meta crisis tenth doctor also stated in Journey's end that, "i'm human, specifically, the aging part", implying that the actual tenth doctor doesn't age. --Ruairih ^{talk to me} 15:03, July 13, 2012 (UTC)ruairih

River implies that she can control her aging, saying she might bring it down a bit gradually, to "freak people out". It's doubtful she means she's going to de-age herself immediately using leftover regeneration energy, but rather she is going to gradually make herself look younger. This is consistent with the fact that she looks younger in previous episodes. If that's the case, then the Doctor is probably keeping himself better preserved.

Remember Rule One.

And remember that the Doctor has no idea how old he actually is. The "200 years" is probably just a wild guess.

• The Doctor sees Amy and Rory in a shop on what must be April 20th two days before he is to die. At first glance, one must assume that this is the Amy and Rory from before the events of this season; after the events of The Big Bang, but before The Impossible Astronaut. We know that the pair hadn't heard from The Doctor for two months by that time - whether or not that means their wedding, or includes any later pops by to visit we don't know. So it's entirely possible enough time would have passed to invent and market a scent that has become popular enough to warrant getting her autograph. Small problem - the Amy from before the events of this season is not acquainted with the term Petrichor. If she was, she'd have recognized it when Idiris used it. Now there's no issue with The Doctor going back a day or two to get the letters in the post in time for them to arrive a day or two ago. Heck, he got one to Canton in America, one to River on Stormcage and himself on the TARDIS, so that's scarcely a problem. However, by the 20th, Amy and Rory should have already gotten his letter and be heading off to meet him (as seen in The Impossible Astronaut). So they shouldn't even BE here. Best guess, this is the Amy and Rory from AFTER the recent series' events, who were brought back a fair period of time BEFORE they left for America, which may also explain why The Doctor bought them a new house and car; to keep themselves out of their own way.

There is nothing in the episode to suggest that the events of Closing Time take place right before the events on Lake Silencio in terms of an earth calendar. Remember the Amy and Rory the Doctor sees giving the autograph are the Amy and Rory the Doctor left on Earth - therefore they have already experienced the events of Lake Silencio. All the episode says is for the Doctor it's the day before his "death". In addition, if this episode did take place in lake April, then the events of Miracle Day would be underway. As no reference is made to that, this must take place some time after.

Actually, note the date of Craig's paper - April 19, 2011.

If post The God Complex Rory and Amy were deposited on Earth before the events of The Impossible Astronaut there would be two sets of Amy and Rorys. Both live in the UK and one Amy (the post TGC one) became famous enough to be stopped on the street by fans. It seems impossible that pre The Impossible Astronaut Amy and Rory wouldn't notice that another version of herself has become famous. Just how far off in the boonies is Leadworth? Wouldn't post TGC Amy and Rory visit Amy or Rory's families in Leadworth at some point and meet themselves?

Add to the problem the "eyewitness" kids. The implication is clearly that they are interviewed at some point later in their lives because they saw the Doctor here just before his supposed death. There are of course possible explanations around all of these points, but it does look like they legitimately didn't think the timing on this through too much.

Further consider the fact that at some point pregnant Amy is replaced by ganger Amy which means that in this case there very well could be three "Amys."

• Add to this the fact that Amy and Rory should be on their way to Utah by now, given the amount of time it would take to get to a remote location. And the Doctor should have sent the letters already, although we see him getting the envelopes from Sophie's refrigerator. True, he could have gone back in time to send them, but the whole thing seems to be convoluted. 24.117.13.108 03:58, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

The Doctor comments how difficult it is to get glazers on a Sunday, which would seem to indicate that this episode takes place from a Friday to a Sunday. April 19th 2011, however, was a Tuesday, which places further doubt on the timing. However, given that it's dark when the Doctor scans the sky for the Cyber Ship, but the shop is still open for him and Craig to return to afterwards, this would seem to indicate that the episode takes place in autumn/winter (unless the shop has really late opening hours - although the Doctor says good afternoon to Val). Also (if we're being really picky), leaves are missing from a lot of the trees in the background, which would also suggest an autumn/winter setting. This would make the most sense for the placing of this episode to fit with post TGC Amy and Rory's lives, and we would therefore have to assume the date on the paper is a production team error.

At this point, we don't know for sure that it is a production error. Given the Rory name tag issue and the number of clocks changing incorrectly from 11:59 AM to a new day, this may all be part of a larger intentional act by a the staff. Since it seems to be suggested that all time is supposed to happen at once in the final episode, this may all have been the early stages of that. So for example, events which shouldn't have been happening on April 19th are happening on April 19th.210.49.167.47 13:02, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Moffet stated in an interview that the issue with Rory's nametag was an honest production mistake. Of course, he lies (no more Daleks), double bluffs (60 seconds of Dalek at most), and is a sneaky bastard in the nicest way, so who knows. 109.175.165.57 15:15, October 6, 2011 (UTC)

:: Okay, how about this: It's an old newspaper?

• When Craig is converted you can clearly hear the Cyber Conversion Unit's blades and knives cut him up but he is undamaged when he can hear Alfie.

Recycled sound effects; This type of unit is clearly different in appearance and function to the Cybus-type unit, so the same sound may be made by a different unrelated component, or it's simply there to remind the viewer what is supposed to be happening.

• Erm... since when could the 'power of love' prevent Conversion and destroy Cybermen? Is it just me, or was that episode terrible? Jimothylad ^{talk to me} 06:24, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
  • It wasn't really love so much as emotion in general. Love was just the emotion strong enough to defeat the Cybermen (who consider emotions weakness, and as shown this is probably true in their case) at the time. As for the second bit, an episode being bad can't count as discontunuity. I will say though that I was quite disappointed - it focused more on the Doctor, Craig and his baby than it did the Cybermen. A balance of the two would have been nice but the Cybermen were greatly under-used. The first Cyberman two-parter of the revived series and the 2008 Christmas Special are really the only stories so far that have actuall focused on the villains, while other time they've been upstaged by the Daleks, were only one part of a huge alliance that had only five minutes of (though admitably wonderful) screen time, and had their entire fleet blown up just a minute before the title sequence even rolled. The Cybermat was more of a threat: villain-wise, the episode seemed to be more about NuWho Cybermats, they just needed Cybermen to explain its presence. Plus, a poorly-convincing "Mondas" "re-design" for 2011. This may be the wrong place to go on about this through, so I'll end here.
• How did Craig and the Doctor escape through the Teleport if the Doctor had fused it early on? I know he said his doing that only bought Craig and him some time, but after there became evident more cyber-visitations regardless of his actions, he still didn't seem to think the Cybermen could have repaired the Teleport so quickly, and was positive there wasn't another one. Wasn't the 'original' Cyberman (who seemed to be doing everything) too busy converting shop staff to fix it?

• It has been pointed out that a newspaper seen in the episode dates the events to 19th April 2011, only a few days prior to the Doctor's "death" at Lake Silencio, established elsewhere as 22nd April. This creates two major continuity issues:
  • We see Amy and Rory and the episode strongly indicates this is the Amy and Rory who the Doctor left on earth in the previous episode. And not the Amy and Rory who receive the invitations to meet the Doctor in Utah. So that means there are two separate Amy and Rorys living in the same vicinity.
  • The events of TW: Miracle Day are established to have begun in March 2011 and continue to the fall of that year, yet there is no reference made to this or the associated changes to people's lifestyles.