Howling:RTD fixed points vs. Darvill-Evans fixed points

The Howling → RTD fixed points vs. Darvill-Evans fixed points

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This probably isn't worth the thought I've put into it, but… I think RTD borrowed the term "fixed point in time" from the NAs, without borrowing its meaning. Am I right?

The original meaning of a "fixed point in time", from the NAs, is this: The "universal present" is somewhere around Rassilon Era 6500; everything before that is the past, and therefore immutable; everything after is the future, and therefore in flux. But time travelers "drag their present" with them. So, when the Doctor visited Perivale in 1989, he created a fixed point that was part of his (and therefore the "universal") present, and is therefore now part of the past, and therefore can't be changed.

The new series completely tossed out the way history worked in the NAs, and even gave us an in-universe explanation: With the destruction of Gallifrey, the Web of Time was replaced by a great big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff. (The BBC novels had earlier done the exact same thing, except with a different destruction of Gallifrey in a different Time War, and without the word "timey-wimey".)

Nevertheless, the new series (unlike the BBC novels) uses the term "fixed point in time", all the time. Is it the same concept, or even related? For example, the Silence seeing the Doctor get killed at Lake Silencio in 2011 was a fixed point in time, one that the Silence intentionally created. Does that have anything to do with the Doctor dragging his present along to 2011? I can't see any way in which it does.

(By the way, if I'm right that they're completely unrelated concepts, I think the RTD version is a much more interesting one. But that's neither here nor there.) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 06:25, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

The RTD version is certainly an interesting one but it makes no sense. 94.72.194.203^{talk to me} 15:41, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to try comparing the two uses of the term "fixed point in time", since I've no knowledge of the NAs. What I will do is ask 94 to explain why he/she thinks the RTD version makes no sense. We don't know a huge amount about the RTD version & we certainly don't know all the fine details of it, let alone how it's related to the Moffat concept of a "still point in time", but there's a substantial difference between "we don't have enough information to make proper sense of it" & "it makes no sense".

Please note: I'm not saying 94's wrong about it not making sense. It's just that the bald statement without explanation doesn't get us anywhere. (There's also the question: How is an idea that makes no sense capable of being interesting?) --89.240.250.160^{talk to me} 20:48, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the bald statement doesn't get us anywhere. There are a few things that are problematic; I think there are answers for most of them which don't require too much fanwank, but maybe I'm fooling myself.

• A fixed point can never, ever be changed, but River changed one: It's not that it's physical impossible to change them, just that doing so unravels all of causality, which is something you should never, ever do.

• All Time Lords can sense fixed points; they're "the burden of the Time Lords", but they're part of the timey-wimey nature of post-LGTW history where there are no Time Lords: He's using the same words for pre-LGTW events that, if pulled on, would tear the Web of Time as for post-LGTW events that would unravel the chaotic ball of timey-wimey, because they feel exactly the same to him.

• Nobody can sense them but Time Lords, but the Daleks were afraid to touch Adelaide Brooke because she was a fixed point: The Daleks have some technological way to detect them.

• Captain Jack isn't an event, he's a person: The Doctor is speaking loosely; maybe it's Jack's existence at each moment in time that's fixed.

Anything else? --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 01:55, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

About Jack: The Doctor did say that Jack was "an impossible thing" & that both he & the TARDIS were extremely uncomfortable in Jack's presence. That's presumably related to their perception of a fixed point that's a person, not an event. The Doctor said that Jack, not Jack's existence, was a fixed point & he was in "technical explanation mode" when he did so, making it unlikely that he was speaking loosely. (I'm usually 89 but I'm 2, just now.) --2.96.31.113^{talk to me} 07:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

When the Doctor was talking to Donna inside Vesuvius (The Fires of Pompeii), he spoke of knowing what could be changed "and what must not". That emphasises that a fixed point is something it would be disastrous to change, not something it's physically impossible to change. If it were impossible to change a fixed point, there'd not be much to worry about -- you could do whatever you wanted & it wouldn't change, though it might foul up what you were trying to do. --2.96.31.113^{talk to me} 08:50, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

2 aka 89, that makes sense. After all, the Doctor tried to change a fixed point in The Waters of Mars, and seemed to succeed, but then the major event (Adelaide's death) still happened, just not in the "original" way. So it is "doable" but either is ultimately futile or causes all of reality to unravel. Shambala108 ☎ 15:10, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Shambala108: Yes, The Waters of Mars is important because it shows that, even when an event is a fixed point, not all of the circumstances are necessarily fixed. Although the central event -- Adelaide's death by her own hand -- still occurred, almost all the surrounding circumstances were different: location -- Earth, not Mars; method -- gun, not nuclear explosion; other fatalities & so on. The Fires of Pompeii, apart from the Doctor's description of what a fixed point is (something it'd be disastrous to change), also shows that the Doctor's perceptions -- or his interpretation of his perceptions -- can be wrong. He thought the destruction of Pompeii was a fixed point but then realised it was something he had done: "It's not history, it's me. I make it happen." (Quote from memory, so may not be word perfect.) Mind you, that might not be him being wrong about it being a fixed point. It might instead be another example of the surrounding circumstances being changeable -- the destruction was fixed but the events leading to it were not & any set of events that brought about the eruption would be OK. Not OK from the point of view of the Pompeiians, obviously, but OK for the integrity of the timestream. (Having been 89 & then 2, I now seem to be 78, but I'm still me.) --78.146.190.43^{talk to me} 16:02, September 29, 2012 (UTC)