Howling:River giving the Doctor her regenerations

The Howling → River giving the Doctor her regenerations

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Did River use all of her regenerations to revive the doctor, or did she use only one to revive him and gave him all the rest? If so, does the Doctor have regenerations after his normal thirteen regeneratioos? (it does sound like a way to keep the show going after the Thirteenth Doctor dies). 98.242.167.50^{talk to me} 12:46, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

it is generally thought that the doctor didn't gain the regenerations from river, but it was never outright stated on screen, only implied. so, although unlikely, if the writers get desperate they could say she gave him extra regenerations but i doubt they will. Imamadmad ☎ 13:00, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Amy specifically said that she used up all her regenerations. There would be no reason for her to actually transfer her regenerations to the Doctor if he didn't need them to survive the poison, and they would have stated it much more directly if this was their plan to keep the show going past the 13th Doctor.Icecreamdif ☎ 15:09, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

If the writers can't think of anything else, they can just say that the 12-regeneration limit was artificially enforced by the Time Lords &, with them gone, no longer applies. But if the writers can't think of anything else, they shouldn't be writing for Doctor Who (or any other show). The Doctor couldn't stop her sacrificing her regenerations to save his life but, if a transer such as the one suggested had happened, he'd be able to give them back. It would undermine the Doctor's character badly if he didn't at least make a very determined effort to do so. --89.240.251.36^{talk to me} 15:11, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I never really bought into the idea of River having to give up all of her regenerations just to bring him back. Even when Amy tells River about it, she uses the word "apparently", meaning she obviously was told this by the Doctor. Yet in that very same scene in the hospital, we hear the Doctor remind us "The Doctor lies, rule 1." The important thing to note is that, unless they rewrite the events of the Library (which is highly unlikely, since that's when he met her) we won't ever know. They made a point in Silence in the Library to have River say that the very same thing that killed her would have killed the Doctor without ever allowing him to regenerate. So if she has remaining regenerations, from now on she still won't be anyone but Alex Kingston since that's who she is now and that's who she died as. So it really doesn't matter if she has them or not, at least not in the context of herself regenerating. Saghan ☎ 16:39, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

It's as clear as anything could possibly be in Doctor Who that River used up all of her regenerations saving the Doctor, she has none left, and he's still on 11 out of 13.

In River Song: Her Story, at 02:57, River's narration says, "And so I gave all my remaining lives to restore his." During the same Confidential, Moffat described it as River using up all of her regenerations.

In an interview the next morning, Moffat was asked whether this gave the Doctor any new regenerations, and he laughed and said, "I hope we can come up with a more creative solution than that." But the best quote from Moffat is: "People keep asking this. It's like asking what colour the TARDIS is. Did they not watch the show?" --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 02:45, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Everybody knows that the TARDIS is a dark grey color. The main problem with using Let's Kill Hitler as a way for the Doctor to get past the 13 regeneration limit is that they never actually said that she transferred her regenerations to him. Sure, the Doctor or River or Amy could have been lying, but it will probably be at least 5 to ten years before it is time to deal with the issue. It would be a terrible plot point if 13 dies, and 14's first words are "normally a Time Lord would die after regenerating thirteen dies, but fortuanetly three incarnations ago, River transferred all of her regenerations to me in an episode that aired way back in 2011."Icecreamdif ☎ 21:09, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

'Dark grey color': good one! I agree it would be dreadful if your described scenario played out.

I know quite a few people who are becoming disillusioned with Moffat (I'm not quite there yet, myself) and it's possible that by the time we hit Thirteen, the show will be ready to end due to low ratings. I highly doubt it, but it could happen. My own theory is that the TARDIS - who is bound to be heartbroken at the thought of losing her doctor - creates a "new" Time Lord somehow with his remains and the vortex.

Ooh, I just thought of another possibility. The hand (Jack's Doctor Detector) is only on its tenth regeneration. It's still around, isn't it? AthertonX ☎ 21:25, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

The hand (and the rest of its body) is in Pete's world with Rose. But if I recall correctly (and it's very possible that I am wrong), I thought that "Doctor" couldn't regenerate. Shambala108 ☎ 21:33, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Shambala. Of course, we've seen Rose several times since she was banished ... I didn't know if it was specified about regeneration of the hand (and still don't; the Wikia doesn't say), but it does seem a stretch. Doable, though.AthertonX ☎ 21:44, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK I went back and looked at a transcript (because I didn't feel like digging out the DVD) and the hand Doctor specifically says he won't regenerate. Shambala108 ☎ 21:52, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!AthertonX ☎ 21:58, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

The only way the showrunners (whoever they are at the time) can deal with the regeneration limit problem is very openly & up-front. Anything else will be seen as cheating -- because it will, in fact, be cheating.

I can think of a few ways it could be done.

One obvious way is to have the 14th Doctor totally astonished to be there & to spend some considerable time & effort finding out why he (or she) even exists. Like most ideas, this one would work if done well enough & wouldn't work if not done well enough. In this case, much would depend on what he (or she) found out.

Another fairly obvious way is to say the limit was artificial & enforced by the Time Lords, so it no longer applies. The trouble with this one is that the best time to do it has passed: the first regeneration of the revived series (The Parting of the Ways) or its immediate aftermath (The Christmas Invasion).

The third possibility is to have something happen that is quite explicitly said, at the time, to have given him additional regenerations. This one requires the writers to come up with a really good rationale for it. This isn't so much one way of dealing with the problem as a category of ways.

Something that would fit into this category would be for the Doctor to find a way to bring Gallifrey & the Time Lords out of the time lock, without bringing the rest of the Time War with them. The "Ultimate Sanction" would then no longer be necessary & all the Time Lords who only supported Rassilon because it was their one chance of survival could give the Doctor a complete new cycle of regenerations in gratitude for getting them out of their dilemma. (I do not think this one is likely to be used.)

As I said above, though, this isn't something that can be sneaked past; it has to be confronted directly. It could not have been confronted directly in Let's Kill Hitler, for the reason I gave yesterday: it would fatally undermine the Doctor's character if he allowed it.

If there had still been other Time Lords around, it might have been possible to set up a situation where another Time Lord had a very good reason for refusing to regenerate & donated his/her remaining regenerations to the Doctor -- to let him carry on a shared task, say. That can't work now because it would mean first finding a way to introduce another Time Lord, when there are supposed to be none, then setting things up for the donation of regenerations & that's just trying to do too much. (I seem to be 2, just now, but I'm usually 89.) --2.99.198.204^{talk to me} 22:06, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt that they are going to deal with the regeneration limit until they have to. The other possibility that they probably will not take would be to say "well, the show's been running for over sixty years now, but we've reached the regeneration limit, so despite our good ratings, let's just end on a highnote and create an amazing series finale where the Doctor dies. After all, no show can last forever, and Doctor Who has already lasted longer than most shows."Icecreamdif ☎ 00:38, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Icecreamdif, "I doubt that they are going to deal with the regeneration limit until they have to": Likewise. That's why I put my first option first. I can't think of any very good way it could be tackled at the last minute (when the 13th Doctor is about to be replaced), only after the last minute. That doesn't mean whoever actually has the job of tackling it won't find another, better way.

Just ending the show is a possibility & I suspect that depends mainly on unknowable factors like who's actually involved, what else is going on at the time, whether the showrunners have loads of story ideas they still want to make or are feeling burned out & so on.

It's also possible that they'll simply decide to ignore the limit without offering an in-universe explanation -- saying, in effect, that's the way it is, get used to it. --2.99.198.204^{talk to me} 01:10, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

"It was enforced by the Time Lords" is popular fanon, but it's boring, it's a cop-out, and Moffat seems to have gone out of his way to make sure no one tries it. (For example, after Let's Kill Hitler, you can't just say regenerations are only finite because the Time Lords impose a limit, because then you have to explain why River's were finite.) Really, it has to be something that happens during the 13th Doctor's life.

I think using "donated regenerations" would be cheesy, but there are other ways a Time Lord could be involved. Imagine another survivor who thinks he's the last of the Time Lords, and he's trying to either make himself immortal or create a new race of Time Lords, and in stopping him the Doctor accidentally gains a new cycle of regenerations. Whoever's writing the show at the time will have as long as he wants to set it up, and plenty of other motivation for bringing back a Time Lord or two without pressing the reset button on the War, so that really isn't much of a problem. But we don't really need a Time Lord, either. Some of their technology may still be around; if not, there's the Silence, the Minyans, Mawdryn's people, and who knows who else studying regeneration. And powerful entities who deal in artron energy, like House. Or the White Guardian might show up and reward the Doctor against his will. Or he'll make a deal with one of the Eternals with unexpected consequences. (This last option only if Paul Cornell takes over the series.)

I really like 2's idea that, whatever happens in his 13th life, he doesn't know about it, and neither do we. But I think that's because I'm imagining Moffat writing the next season. If I try to imagine what, say, Chris Chibnall, Mark Gatiss, or Phil Ford, Gary Russell would do with the idea… then it's not so good. I can think of some writers who could pull off something as good as (but very different from) the Moffat arc I'm imagining, but none of them seem very likely to be running the show. (Can we lock Neil Gaiman up in a cabin in Maine, hobble him so he can't run away, and force him to write a few seasons?) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 03:49, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Gaiman might indeed be the right one to take on the job. As you (70) say & I keep saying myself, how it's written is really the key factor. Even an idea that seems really "cheesy" when stated baldly can work if it's well enough written. The unfortunate converse of that, of course, is that an idea that seems brilliant in outline can be turned into an complete disaster if it's written badly. Think how horrible The Doctor's Wife could have been if the personality of the TARDIS & the dialog between her & the Doctor had been mishandled -- if we'd been sitting there thinking, "No. No. No! That's just not her. She can't be like that!". Gaiman deserved the Hugo. What we need, & would need even without the regeneration limit problem, is one or two more writers of that quality but they're rare & always have been. (I'm back to being 89, instead of 2.) --89.242.66.17^{talk to me} 10:46, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

the main problem with forcing gaiman to write a whole series is that chances are the writing quality will deteriorate. personally, most of my favourite episodes of DW are ons written by moffat during the RTD era. however, now moffat's taken over, the episodes he writes, although good, aren't nearly as good as they used to be. but if he could keep up the high quality writing, capturing gaiman might work... and i agree that the success of whatever idea they go with will mostly be determined by the quality of the writing. if i were the bbc, i would give the episode brief or whatever it is to a few different writers and then choose the best out of the scripts they come up with. but i'm not the bbc, so, yeah. but i do think that, if done well, the figuring out the extra regenerations after he's regenerated for the 13th time would be the best way to do it. Imamadmad ☎ 01:18, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Imamadmad, that's a good point. RTD and Moffat have both taken over many of the duties of a traditional script editor, on top of writing half the episodes and being the lead exec and producer. Very few people could pull that off, and Gaiman probably isn't one of them. He'd be a great head writer, but all those extra tasks would get in the way, and either his scripts or everyone else's would suffer. Gatiss, on the other hand, would be a great exec/producer/script editor but a mediocre head writer, especially if he had to do all those jobs at once (and even worse if he gets his wish of playing the 13th Doctor…).

Maybe what they need is a strong script editor again (like Bryant, Holmes, Adams, Cartmel, etc.), maybe even sharing in production duties. So you could have, say, Gaiman as head writer/exec, and Gatiss as script editor/producer/exec. Of course there's the danger of a JNT/Saward situation where they each try to do the other guy's job and neglect to do their own… but if they clearly delineate things at the start, they should be able to avoid that. Alternatively, find an existing partnership to hand the show over to. (After all, most decent US shows, and a pretty good number of UK ones—like Sherlock—are run by partnerships.)

Anyway, thanks for getting my hopes up about Gaiman so when they give the show to Gary Russell I'll be even more disappointed… --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 01:51, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

The point about Moffat having been a better writer during the RTD era is a good one. Part of that, certainly, is that he's too much else to do now. I think, though, that the most important factor is that everyone, no matter how brilliantly good, needs to have someone else around who can say "No" & make it stick when necessary. The boss doesn't need to be someone who's able to write brilliant -- or even good -- scripts. The boss does need to be someone who's able to recognise which scripts are brilliant & which are not. The boss also needs to be someone who can keep the team functioning as a team -- none of this "I'm not talking to him!" business.

There's another quality the boss needs: he/she needs to recognise what he/she is not good at doing & listen to those who are good at it. That's one of the differences between JN-T & RTD. Neither one of them could tell what would make a female character attractive to heterosexual males. JN-T thought he could & insisted on having his ideas followed, which just didn't work. We got Peri, who appeared as a scantily-clad pain in the coccyx. RTD knew full well he couldn't tell & had the sense to listen to others who could, which did work. We got Rose, who showed very little flesh but most viewers could quite easily see why the Doctor fell for her. (I'm 78, this time, instead of 89 or 2.) --78.146.187.111^{talk to me} 11:14, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

Good point; there are certainly good examples of people who are good bosses in your sense without being good writers, like Verity Lambert or Peter Bryant. But I think your other point hits the nail on the head. What's rare about RTD and Moffat isn't that they can take on so many roles without their heads exploding, but the fact that they're among the few writers who can be their own boss. Of course they're not perfect at it, but most writers couldn't even begin to work that way. Which is why so few shows work that way. The idea of a head-writer/exec was almost unheard of in 2005 (in the UK; in the US it's common, but only on shows that have a stable of permanent staff writers). Which I think is, ultimately, a better argument than my original that we shouldn't be thinking about Moffat's replacement, singular, as another show-runner in the RTD/Moffat mold.

Anyway, we're getting even farther off-topic than usual here; this started off as a discussion of how Let's Kill Hitler might affect the 13-regeneration issue and/or River's final death (if at all), and now it's on "gay men think women=boobs" (not that I don't love that RTD interview—he does an amazing job of making sure nothing he says is actually about JNT and Peri, even though it obviously is…). But it's all still interesting, and you're still making points that make me rethink some ideas, so I'm not complaining. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 09:34, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

I know it's off-topic but, believe it or not, I haven't seen "that RTD interview" & didn't even know such an interview existed. I was going mainly by what I've seen in the episodes themselves, plus comments by people who worked with either JN-T or RTD.

Persistent off-topic contributions tend to be a sign that everything that anyone has to say about the topic has already been said. As far as I can see, the on-topic discussion has ended up saying: The scene in Let's Kill Hitler was definitely not intended to address the 12-regeneration limit; a future writer could perhaps use it that way but any future writer would be very foolish to try doing so. (I'm back to being 2 again.) --2.96.17.194^{talk to me} 12:34, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

By the way, 70, you said earlier, "I really like 2's idea that, whatever happens in his 13th life, he doesn't know about it, and neither do we.": I should have pointed out then that it's not actually my idea. I don't know who originated it but it wasn't me. I've run across several variants of it, including the unworkably trite one in which the 14th Doctor immediately spouts a technobabble "explanation" of why the limit didn't apply after all. That is simply too much like what happened with the very first regeneration. It worked then because the Doctor himself would have known about regeneration, even though Ben & Polly (plus audience) didn't & it didn't contradict anything that had already been established. It wouldn't work again because it would contradict something that has already been established. The only variant I've seen suggested that could be made to work is the one where it's a major surprise to the Doctor, as well as to the audience. --2.96.17.194^{talk to me} 15:32, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

My friend and I have a theory about his regenerations. Our theory is that because the 9th doctor took in the time vortex from Rose this messed with his DNA somehow. This is backed up by the fact that the "vortex blasting out of clothes" effect (or anything close to it) has never been used before. Also since then, any time the Doctor regenerates (or almost regenerates) this effect is used each time. AND he has breathed out "time dust" each time! So maybe this effect has to to with what the time vortex did to him. So in turn maybe when he gets to his 12 regeneration it might be a little different than other timelords. Maybe he will have more? an infinite amount? he'll explode? Who knows? but we think it'll be something interesting BECAUSE of the time vortex. Just a fun theory we have! Discuss... :)

PS...Explanations for River and the Master using the same effect: Well, river was only a timelord because she was conceived on the TARDIS so maybe the time vortex effected her DNA that way. The Master's resurrection by the timelords for the time war may have to do with why he regenerates like that. Just a guess. :) VoicesFromTheVortex ☎ 17:26, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. Don't buy it. It makes too many different things have the same effect. And it requires that "it just so happens" that the phenomenon also gives the Doctor additional regenerations. Besides, if suddenly referring back to an event that took place three regenerations previously would be obviously daft (as Icecreamdif pointed out a while ago), suddenly referring back to one that took place five regenerations previously would be unspeakably lunatic. --89.240.246.30^{talk to me} 20:18, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

In the classic series, the regeneration effect changed each time, mostly because the effects improved over the years (and in the case of the 6th Doctor's regeneration, it was obviously necessary to cover his face). In the new series though, they have access to CGI, and can basically keep the regenerations looking modern without changing them too much. They have improved the effect a bit since the 9th Doctor's regeneration, but it really makes more sense for the effect to stay consistent anyway.Icecreamdif ☎ 02:11, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

it was said i think in confidential that they kept the regeneration effect the same because the first two regens of the revived series were by different people, the first by the doctor and the second by the master, and they wanted it to be obvious to the audience that the same process was happening to each of them. then, there was no point in changing after that, and it would have been more confusing for the audience, so that's why they haven't changed the regen effect. Imamadmad ☎ 03:18, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Paradoxically, regenerations have been more frequent in the revived series than in the "classic" series, despite the drastic reduction in the number of Time Lords &c available to regenerate! That in itself is a reason to keep the effects looking the same.

That reason has now been reinforced by the fact that a fair number of people watched The Impossible Astronaut closely enough to post comments in various places, almost immediately after it had aired, saying the regeneration effect in that episode hadn't looked quite right. It was months before we found out there was a good reason for it not looking quite right.

Full marks to those who spotted it, of course, but knowing how closely the thing is examined now that HD & "skip back" are available must make the production team very wary of changing things they don't actually need to change. --89.241.79.102^{talk to me} 04:26, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts guys. It was just a fun theory we had. But calling it "daft" and "lunatic" was pretty rude. Sorry I'm not as knowledgeable about the show as you. Whatever man. Everybody else...thanks for being respectful in your responses. VoicesFromTheVortex ☎ 14:41, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

VoicesFromTheVortex: "Daft" & "lunatic" referred to trying to use the theory in the show as a way around the 12-regeneration limit, not to the theory itself. Neither word was intended to be rude. Both were intended to convey why your theory, no matter how logical, couldn't actually be used.

Remember that, if you put up a theory for discussion & it can be attacked, it will be attacked. Remember also that it's the theory that's being attacked, not you. Don't take it personally.

If (as has happened, from time to time) someone said the same thing about a theory I'd posted, I wouldn't get offended. I'd argue back by explaining why I reckoned the theory wasn't "daft" or "lunatic". If I couldn't find good (that is rational) arguments in favour of the theory, I'd have to accept that it was "daft" and/or "lunatic" & try to come up with something better.

As for being respectful: I was assuming that, since you'd chosen to enter the kitchen, you'd be able to stand the heat. Taking it for granted that you can cope might be mistaken but it ain't disrespectful. --89.242.68.132^{talk to me} 16:46, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

While I understand now what you were calling lunatic and am not really that offended anymore I still never thought this was a place where where I should expect an "attack" and not an interesting discussion. Not saying you are attacking me anymore but I don't agree that this is a kitchen where I should expect heat. It was mostly the "Sorry. Not buying it" part. I would never assume that somebody would be ok with being "attacked". I figured this was a welcoming place for Who fans.

That being said (if not for the fact brought up by Imamadmad that they said in confidential that they changed the way regeneration looks for all) I don't think that it is that bad of a theory at all. My response to your responses would be that I think it's not weird if they called back to an event that far in the series because they call back to old stuff all the time! We JUST saw a call back in TATM to 2 seasons ago in TEH with young Amelia waking up in the morning so I don't think it's that weird. Also how many times has something happened "coincidentally" on the show? All the time.

So I'm not trying to start anything I was just surprised at your response. All the best to you and happy theorizing! VoicesFromTheVortex ☎ 19:45, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

VoicesFromTheVortex: I think people were a bit unnecessarily harsh. There is a solid point to be made here: The writers almost certainly weren't (and still aren't) planning to solve the 13-regeneration limit with the Bad Wolf story. But that doesn't mean that whoever's in charge at the time can't decide that it's the best way to explain things. And it wouldn't necessarily be a bad story.

They do call back to old events all the time—Gridlock, for example, calls back to The Macro Terror, 40 years earlier. But so far, they have never made a major plot line hinge on anything that wasn't from the same season. Apparently, RTD didn't realize he was following such a rule until he started writing The Writer's Tale, but then he argued it was important for the success of the show, and Moffat has followed in his footsteps. There does seem to be one blatant exception—Rose coming back in Journey's End—but if you watch, RTD wove enough of the Pete's World story back into series 4 so that you didn't actually have to remember series 2 to follow it.

And that actually helps your larger point. At the time RTD wrote Doomsday, he was absolutely sure Rose wasn't coming back until the "farewell tour" from the 10th Doctor's last episode. But two years later, while plotting out Journey's End, he decided that Rose and Pete's World should all be part of how the Doctor learns about the Reality Bomb. So, he wrote that all into series 4. In the same way, if whoever's writing series 15 (or whenever) decides that the best way to explain how the 13th Doctor can regenerate is his absorbing the Bad Wolf power, he could weave Bad Wolf into series 15 and make it work. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 03:56, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

The return of the Macra isn't the same kind of thing at all. Gridlock would have worked equally well had the Macra never appeared before. The only changes that would have been needed would have been a couple of lines of incidental dialog. The viewer didn't need to know anything about the Macra at all.

The return of Rose in Series 4 is a better comparison. A viewer who didn't know who Rose was would have missed quite a lot. The preparation in Series 4 wouldn't have done much to tell such a viewer who Rose was & why she was important.

However, Rose reappeared at the end of Partners in Crime, just over a year after she'd left in Doomsday. That's not a long gap. Using something from Series 1 as a key part of the explanation of something that happens in Series 15 (or whenever) is a long gap. By then, there'll be plenty of viewers who weren't even born when Series 1 was aired.

To make anything of the kind work, the writers would need to bring in a pretty complete explanation of the Bad Wolf.

What could certainly not be done would be to tie the explanation to the updated appearance of regeneration. Why not? Because the new appearance was used immediately after the Bad Wolf events and the Doctor showed no sign that his regeneration had been any different from his previous ones. He recognised the start of the process from the glow on his hands, so it wasn't something new to him. The aborted regeneration in Journey's End also indicates that the Doctor was thoroughly familiar with the process.

Thus, any use of the Bad Wolf power to explain a 13th successful regeneration would have to start with the Doctor not knowing that the Bad Wolf had made a difference.

It's not only the Bad Wolf idea that would fall flat. Whatever is done will need a lot of explaining. I can't see how that could be done for the Bad Wolf idea or anything else in advance of the 13th regeneration without it being horribly obvious that it was contrived simply as a way to allow another regeneration. In other words, anything done that way would seem daft, at best.

Instead of trying to weave the explanation into the story -- or a succession of stories -- in advance of the 13th regeneration, it'd be far better to use the explanation as the story. That's why I suggested earlier that the regeneration should simply happen & the 14th Doctor should be surprised that it did. The story (or, rather, the story arc) would then be about his efforts to find out why the 13th regeneration succeeded.

Basically, it's a variety of mystery story: the end result is known but how that result came about is not. As with most mystery stories, you begin with the discovery of a body. Usually, the mystery is how the body came to be dead; here, the mystery is how the body comes to be alive.

The further advantage of doing things that way round is that it gives you more time. An explanation beforehand has a deadline (excuse the expression) -- the regeneration. An explanation afterwards has no deadline. You can take as long as necessary to make it complete & convincing.

I still don't like the idea of using the Bad Wolf idea. Nonetheless, if it were done as the solution of the mystery, there'd be enough room for flashbacks &c to convey the required information. The Bad Wolf idea does have a couple of things in its favour: the footage exists in a suitable format to be used for flashbacks & the TARDIS figures prominently, so even those who'd never seen Series 1 would have no problem working out that the 9th Doctor is the Doctor. --89.241.66.30^{talk to me} 06:17, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Another nice element of "it just happens" is that it would present an opportunity for a very emotional end to 14, since he would know (albeit wrongly) that his long life was ending, as would his companion at the time. Whatever the circumstances (heroic sacrifice, random accident, &c.), the final goodbye could be quite affecting. AthertonX ☎ 22:58, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

89, The difference between the Macra and Rose is exactly the point I was making, and I'm not sure why you're arguing about it. Even if you're right that series 2 to series 4 wasn't so long that it required reintroducing details about Rose, RTD has explicitly said he thought it was, and his opinion is what matters. And you seem to agree with the conclusion anyway: A future writer who wanted to use Bad Wolf as an explanation would almost certainly have to weave the Bad Wolf storyline into the season that uses the explanation, which would be a major extra constraint, but not an insurmountable one.

Also, I think everyone agrees that the after-the-fact mystery is a great idea, but that doesn't mean it's the only good idea. Moffat could probably write the regeneration as a shocking twist, an unexpected but appropriately foreshadowed result of what happened earlier that year. RTD could probably give us a blatantly obvious and horribly contrived foregone conclusion and still make it appropriately dramatic—as he did with the 10th Doctor's sacrifice. It's a leap too far to go from "this idea has a lot to recommend it" to "this idea is the only one conceivable". That being said, I do want to reiterate that your idea does have a lot to recommend it, and I'm almost looking forward to seeing the "final farewell" that AthertonX describes. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 23:52, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

AthertonX: I think you meant "a very emotional end to 13..." He's the one that won't expect to regenerate.

As ever, it all depends on the quality of the writing but there's room for real tear-jerking sadness as 13 nears the end, followed by a mixture of comedy & seriousness when he regenerates unexpectedly. (Note, this isn't meant to be the actual dialog, just a rough outline of the idea.)

Companion: "You told me you were going to die! You put me through all that heartache for nothing! All those things I said... I'm never going to speak to you again!"

Fourteen: "I thought I was going to die. I don't know why I didn't! [pause] But I'm going to find out! And I'm going to need your help to do it. [pause] I could murder a cup of tea!"

The Doctor usually suffers from regeneration trauma of one kind or another, too, which could be used to add further confusion to the post-regeneration scenes. (In that respect, Eleven got off very lightly, compared with most of his predecessors.)

The companion, whoever it is at that time, has to represent the audience in his/her (probably her) reactions to the events. It's impossible to avoid a sense of let-down, as well as relief, that it's not the end, after all. The companion gives that a voice.

However, the writers' real problems are only starting at that point. It's essential that the eventual explanation -- whatever it is -- for the unexpected regeneration is both logically sound (within the terms of the "Whoniverse") & very well presented.

It also, of course, has to get rid of the regeneration limit entirely. This isn't something the show could get away with more than once.

No, the the after-the-fact mystery isn't the only way it could be done. It's just the only way I can see it being done successfully. However, I'm not a brilliant, professional TV scriptwriter, so it's entirely possible that someone who is a brilliant, professional TV scriptwriter could find another way & make it work really well. In the end, it will always come down to how well it's written. --89.241.64.135^{talk to me} 00:01, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I think we actually agree on all the important bits here. (And good point about needing to get rid of the regeneration limit entirely. Imagine the conversation we'd be having in the virtual nursing home when we get near the 26th Doctor…)

Except that I was imagining the 14th Doctor not waking up right away. After the companion's tearful last goodbye, UNIT takes custody of the corpse. The 14th Doctor wakes up on the autopsy table, interrupting Kate Stewart, who's on the phone get Liz Shaw out of retirement. The scene can be played for laughs, with throwaway references to the TV movie ("Grace?" "Is it possible to have deja vu and amnesia at the same time?"), The Impossible Astronaut, Alien Bodies, Spearhead from Space, etc.… And then, to remind us that it's not all fun and games, a final shot of the TARDIS in the companion's backyard, shutting down for good to prepare for her slow, lonely death. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 01:26, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

89, you are correct; for some reason I was thinking the Doctor's number is one more than the regeneration number, but of course that's not so. 70, fun ideas - and I had momentarily forgotten about the emotional impact of and on the TARDIS! More and more, I'm hoping this is what we get. AthertonX ☎ 02:14, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

70: To allow enough screen time to do it your way, which certainly has its good points, the "death" of Thirteen would need to be near the start of the episode. That might in itself be an advantage, since it's not where the audience would be expecting it. My rough (extremely rough) outline assumes that it happens at the end of a series finalé, the usual place for a regeneration, & is setting up a "cliffhanger" -- watch the next series to find out why what has happened has happened. Yours seems to me to be more suited to a series opener, somewhat along the lines of The Impossible Astronaut. It'd be virtually impossible to keep secret the fact that there was going to be a 14th Doctor, so putting the regeneration in the opening episode of a series wouldn't be giving away anything the audience didn't already know.

The TARDIS: If she's shown somewhere "shutting down for good to prepare for her slow, lonely death", it shouldn't be after "the 14th Doctor wakes up on the autopsy table". She's telepathic. Show her shutting down & the companion(s) leaving in distress. Then show the 14th Doctor just beginning to stir. Then cut back to the darkened TARDIS with the companion(s) outside and have the TARDIS abruptly power up again. --89.241.64.135^{talk to me} 03:37, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

the death should be at the end of the first part of a finale double episode, but should then include some signs of life just after we see the companion walk away and the tardis shut down. nothing to big, but enough to show the audience that something's wrong. then, at the beginning of the next episode, after recapping the mourning of the companion and the tardis, the doctor should suddenly awake and regenerate. he is then very confused, and goes in search of his companion and will obviously have to try hard to convince her it's him, it's really him, and then he will need to explain to her that something's wrong and that he has to figure out what it is; what made him regenerate again.

ok, reading back over that it's starting to sound kinda fanfic-ish, but in a way this whole part of this discussion of the 13th regeneration is kinda fanfic-ish, so yeah. but i personally think that would be the best way for the writers to go about it. just my opinion. Imamadmad ☎ 05:25, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

I think the "kinda fanfic-ish" character of this discussion is nearly inevitable. There's a fair variety of logical explanations that could work. The really critical thing is how the thing is presented. I'm starting to sound like the stuck record in the 1996 TV movie because I keep repeating the same thing but that is the essential point.

A two-parter might indeed be the way to go. Whether it's a series finalé or a series opener, a two-parter would fit.

Thinking a bit more about it, it'd need to be the start of the regeneration that brought the TARDIS back to life, too. It can't be anything later than that because, from that point on, she'd be telepathically aware that the Doctor wasn't dead. --89.241.64.135^{talk to me} 05:47, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

On a lighter note, I think that 14 should be ginger - our second clue that "things are different now".AthertonX ☎ 21:27, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Fine -- unless 12 or 13 had already been ginger. However, it wouldn't be that much of a clue, since we already know the Doctor would like to be ginger & the disappontment he's twice expressed means ginger was possible. --89.241.75.117^{talk to me} 22:56, October 15, 2012 (UTC)

Imamadmad: That's exactly what I was thinking: either he dies at the end of episode 12 and regenerates early in episode 13, or there's a cliffhanger in episode 12, just like in series 4, but this time he really does turn out to be dead next week, and then he regenerates a few scenes later.

89: You're right, the TARDIS's death would have to be before the 14th Doctor wakes up, not after. In fact, now that I think about it, you could show the grieving companion with a dying TARDIS in her backyard, then go off and do the fun regeneration sequence, then return to the still-grieving companion… but in the background, a light goes on and there's a faint wheezing, groaning sound. That way you get the gloomy reminder, but with a ray of hope. But once you go that far, that brings us back to your idea of moving the whole regeneration to the following season. Start with the TARDIS shutting down to die, then the companion's grief, maybe even UNIT notifying other companions, really make a tearjerker out of it… and then end with the light on the TARDIS as the only reason we have to believe that the Doctor will be back next season (well, except for the obvious out-of-universe knowledge that the show's been renewed for another 3 years and they're unlikely to do it without a Doctor).

AthertonX: A real clue that things are different now would be a female 14. I can see that happening (and maybe even working) if Gatiss is running the show after Moffat. And in that case, we'll already have had a ginger Doctor, since he's dreamed of being the 13th Doctor since he was 4, and he'd have a hard time resisting if he were showrunner… --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 03:57, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

i so hope gatiss won't play the doctor or any other character if he is running the thing. he already seems self absorbed enough playing a major character in sherlock, a show he co-created. if nothing else it will reflect badly on him. and also, i just can't see him as the doctor, especially after lazarus.

the only reason i think they should do the regeneration cliffhanger on an end of season two parter is that then they won't have to worry about advertising for the show and still keeping the regen a secret. also, there is again the more seasons commissioned thing 70 points out.

and please, no female doctor! that would just be weird. and i can say that without being considered sexist because i am a girl. but seriously, keep the doctor as a british male. Imamadmad ☎ 10:25, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

While it would definitely be risky, a female Doctor could work -- but only if they got the right female to play her. Joanna Lumley, who appeared as the Doctor in the spoof The Curse of Fatal Death, could have done it for real at that time but will probably be a trifle old by the time we're talking about. It would need someone with that kind of authoratative "presence", as well as first-rate acting ability, so there's not a huge pool of possibilities. By the way, I'm male & remember William Hartnell introducing the role of the Doctor, so I'm about as old a fan as you'll find. --89.240.241.202^{talk to me} 11:03, October 16, 2012 (UTC)