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This page is for discussing the ways in which Death of the Doctor doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.
Remember, this is a forum, so civil discussion is encouraged. However, please do not sign your posts. Also, keep all posts about the same continuity error under the same bullet point. You can add a new point by typing:
* This is point one. ::This is a counter-argument to point one. :::This is a counter-argument to the counter-argument above * This is point two. ::Explanation of point two. ::Further discussion and query of point two. ... and so on.
- Jo Grant forgot her encounter with the Eighth Doctor in the 90s in Genocide.
- The nature of her encounter involved the creation an alternate timeline.
- Novels aren't canon, especially if overuled by a television show.
- Not true. Canon is a term that has been constructed by fans. A Doctor Who official once said there was never any sort of canon used by the creators.
- Yes, but canon refers to anything within the Whoniverse. It refers to what counts, as such, and what doesn't, so in a way, every TV show has a canon to distinguish sketches, etc, from the real thing. Novels are generally not considered canoncical, especially, as said above, if they contradict sources that are definitely canon; Doctor Who, SJA and Torchwood.
- Given that the possibilities of alternate timelines and parallel universes, canon is not a necessary thing for Doctor Who. The Doctor's "507" number of regenerations on a spin-off conflicts with the "13", massively. Given Doctor Who is the main show, it would over-ride the SJA comment.
- Given the seemingly randomness of the number 507 and the way the Doctor casually delivers it suggests he could just be joking anyways. He's always been a bit weird about his age so why not his regenerations especially as he would be 'running' out at this stage.
- I see your point. However, the "canon" referred to here, I think, was meant to be referring to the main universe the three Whouniverse series are set in. (you are right, the conflicting events of novels, etc, could be true in parallel universes) As for the Doctor's regenerations, as both are in the Whouniverse, us fans will do what we always do; find a reason until a "real" one is explained on screen LOL. I think that, probably, the Doctor was not being serious when talking to Clive, maybe just saying that to impress him, or because his mind was otherwise occupied, etc. Or maybe the previous statement of 13 was a lie... but I, like you, give the main series canoncical priority.
- The "507 times" was not accidentally different from the established 13 incarnations. So, it was presumably one of three things: a glib, off-hand comment by the Doctor (he's known for these, and they are not always true), a reference to something other than the standard regeneration process we know of, or an indication that the number of regenerations has changed since the old days (likely somehow related to the Time War). We can expect that this will be addressed in future episodes.
- It would seem to me that the simplest explanation is probably the correct one - the Doc is a renegade Time Lord, remember. Assuming this 'only 12 regenerations' rule is something handed down by Cardinal Rassilon, or the High Council, rather than an inherent physical limitation, this could mean that he could continue to regenerate as many times as he likes, especially as Rassilon, and the rest of the High Council, along with all the other Time Lords, are trapped within the Last Great Time War. Of course, you do have to take into account the various machinations that the Master undertook in order to beg/borrow/steal another regeneration cycle, or extend his life in a variety of ways that didn't involve regeneration, but most of them took place when the Time Lords were still around, so he may have avoided doing so simply because he knew there would terrible consequences from them if he did. The Doc doesn't have that concern. Hell, for all we know, as the last of the Time Lords, he, on his own, may be the de facto High Council, and, as such, has the power to grant himself additional regeneration cycles as he sees fit - and that is something that the High Council can do, as they offered this to the Master in The Five Doctors.
- Russell T Davies confirmed that the '507' was a joke, and, if you add 5, 0 and 7 together, you get 12.
- Rule #1... And Eleven usually makes a joke of it.
- It would seem to me that the simplest explanation is probably the correct one - the Doc is a renegade Time Lord, remember. Assuming this 'only 12 regenerations' rule is something handed down by Cardinal Rassilon, or the High Council, rather than an inherent physical limitation, this could mean that he could continue to regenerate as many times as he likes, especially as Rassilon, and the rest of the High Council, along with all the other Time Lords, are trapped within the Last Great Time War. Of course, you do have to take into account the various machinations that the Master undertook in order to beg/borrow/steal another regeneration cycle, or extend his life in a variety of ways that didn't involve regeneration, but most of them took place when the Time Lords were still around, so he may have avoided doing so simply because he knew there would terrible consequences from them if he did. The Doc doesn't have that concern. Hell, for all we know, as the last of the Time Lords, he, on his own, may be the de facto High Council, and, as such, has the power to grant himself additional regeneration cycles as he sees fit - and that is something that the High Council can do, as they offered this to the Master in The Five Doctors.
- The "507 times" was not accidentally different from the established 13 incarnations. So, it was presumably one of three things: a glib, off-hand comment by the Doctor (he's known for these, and they are not always true), a reference to something other than the standard regeneration process we know of, or an indication that the number of regenerations has changed since the old days (likely somehow related to the Time War). We can expect that this will be addressed in future episodes.
- I see your point. However, the "canon" referred to here, I think, was meant to be referring to the main universe the three Whouniverse series are set in. (you are right, the conflicting events of novels, etc, could be true in parallel universes) As for the Doctor's regenerations, as both are in the Whouniverse, us fans will do what we always do; find a reason until a "real" one is explained on screen LOL. I think that, probably, the Doctor was not being serious when talking to Clive, maybe just saying that to impress him, or because his mind was otherwise occupied, etc. Or maybe the previous statement of 13 was a lie... but I, like you, give the main series canoncical priority.
- Given the seemingly randomness of the number 507 and the way the Doctor casually delivers it suggests he could just be joking anyways. He's always been a bit weird about his age so why not his regenerations especially as he would be 'running' out at this stage.
- Given that the possibilities of alternate timelines and parallel universes, canon is not a necessary thing for Doctor Who. The Doctor's "507" number of regenerations on a spin-off conflicts with the "13", massively. Given Doctor Who is the main show, it would over-ride the SJA comment.
- Yes, but canon refers to anything within the Whoniverse. It refers to what counts, as such, and what doesn't, so in a way, every TV show has a canon to distinguish sketches, etc, from the real thing. Novels are generally not considered canoncical, especially, as said above, if they contradict sources that are definitely canon; Doctor Who, SJA and Torchwood.
- Not true. Canon is a term that has been constructed by fans. A Doctor Who official once said there was never any sort of canon used by the creators.
- I like the way it's approached elsewhere in the wiki - "According to one account..." If both stories are canon, then one of the changes made to the timestream - like the Big Bang Reboot - must have invalidated Genocide (novel) in a way that means Jo doesn't remember, perhaps because she wasn't TARDIS crew when it happened.
- Wouldn't Sarah Jane object to Tia Karim being in her attic and seeing Mr Smith. Previously she didn't want UNIT to know about him.
- She may have become more lenient, seeing as she has had numerous contacts with UNIT (During the Horath situation, Dalek invasion etc.)
- Seeing as it's evident that UNIT are aware she runs a anti-alien-invading force, that she's bound to have technology in there. But they aren't Torchwood, so they might let her have it.
- Perhaps even the Doctor told them to leave her alone.
- She could have been so distraught by the news of the Doctor's death that she didn't think about them seeing Mr. Smith.
- I agree, this seems to contradict previous episodes in which Sarah tried to cover up the existance of Mr Smith from UNIT. I think the most logical explanation is that she was in shock, so forgot.
- There's also the fact that Sarah Jane is well known by U.N.I.T (having worked for them under the Doctor), is friends with the Brigadier, and is known of by Torchwood. The Doctor never retired for U.N.I.T and has a lot of authority there so he could have ordered her to be left alone for Jack leaves her alone, and she chooses to stay away from him. As well as this, if the Brigadier - who is still close to her after all these years - gave an input on her behalf, then she'd be fine. Especially if she lies and says that the Doctor gave her Mr Smith.
- Mr Smith activates himself to tell Sarah Jane that U.N.I.T have arrived; she goes outside to stop them and just doesn't shut him down, since, when she went out, she had no intention of letting them into her house in the first place.
- There's also the fact that Sarah Jane is well known by U.N.I.T (having worked for them under the Doctor), is friends with the Brigadier, and is known of by Torchwood. The Doctor never retired for U.N.I.T and has a lot of authority there so he could have ordered her to be left alone for Jack leaves her alone, and she chooses to stay away from him. As well as this, if the Brigadier - who is still close to her after all these years - gave an input on her behalf, then she'd be fine. Especially if she lies and says that the Doctor gave her Mr Smith.
- I agree, this seems to contradict previous episodes in which Sarah tried to cover up the existance of Mr Smith from UNIT. I think the most logical explanation is that she was in shock, so forgot.
- She could have been so distraught by the news of the Doctor's death that she didn't think about them seeing Mr. Smith.
- Perhaps even the Doctor told them to leave her alone.
- When the Doctor is talking to Jo, he refers to her, and her grandchildren's, future. Surely this is against his principals to tell someone their future? (hence him not looking at River's diary at the end of the Forest of the Dead) Also, he refers to Jo's happy life... maybe this is (albeit weak) proof that Jo didn't die as a result of a house fire in 2028?
- He doesn't tell her anything that changes the course of time, so no harm is done. He has great affection for Jo, and this is simply a nice gesture. The Doctor is not known for his strict adherence to the rules.. As for the house fire, that's never been established or even mentioned on the TV series.
- And any way, 2028 would make Jo likely in her 80s, so his comment about a happy life still applies since he could be referring to her life in total.
- He doesn't tell her anything that changes the course of time, so no harm is done. He has great affection for Jo, and this is simply a nice gesture. The Doctor is not known for his strict adherence to the rules.. As for the house fire, that's never been established or even mentioned on the TV series.
- Considering that this episode takes place in a UNIT base, there are very little UNIT personnel seen, their presence going from minor to non-existent once the true nature of the Shansheeth is revealed. Where did they go? Surely someone should have stayed behind to guard the base, considering they have alien and human visitors in the base during curfew?
- It could be that they are simply just not shown (and are in other parts of the base). The female UNIT officer has presumably been left in charge of the funeral arrangements and the Shansheeth. Also, with the lock-down she implemented, perhaps other UNIT officers simply couldn't get into the area to help.
- It's clearly stated that this section of the base has been put into lockdown. Colonel Karim did this to isolate them from getting any help.
- Karim also has sufficient seniority to order "non-essential" personnel away or reassign them.
- The fact that Clyde and Rani are grounded on Earth and cannot leave the planet due to legal restrictions with the Judoon plays a major part in the episode following this one, so why is it that Clyde can go to that other planet without the Judoon taking any notice. Surely if they were grounding people on a planet, they would have measures which inform them of those people leaving it.
- Clyde and Rani can not leave the planet due to legal reasons, there is nothing physically holding them there. The robots decided to uphold the law, and did not see Clyde and Rani's presence as a threat to their mission. The Doctor doesn't care about following the law, and he needed Clyde to leave Earth if he wanted to get Earth.
- Also, in truth Clyde is only on the planet for a few minutes; far too short a time for the Judoon to do anything about it, and the Doctor being involved, he would probably handwave any concerns away.
- Clyde and Rani can not leave the planet due to legal reasons, there is nothing physically holding them there. The robots decided to uphold the law, and did not see Clyde and Rani's presence as a threat to their mission. The Doctor doesn't care about following the law, and he needed Clyde to leave Earth if he wanted to get Earth.
- Tia Karim said she was from the Unified Intelligence Taskforce but it should be the United Nations Intelligence Taskforce.
- UNIT have called themselves the Unified Intelligence Taskforce, ever since the 2005 revival. No canon reason has been given for UNIT's change in name.
- The Doctor called it United Nations in Aliens of London, but since then, it's been either only referred to by initials or consistently called Unified when spoken in full, after the real UN complained or something.
- The name Unified is said to have been adapted sometime between Aliens of London and the Sontaran event; as correctly noted above this was due to the real U.N. objecting. In the context of the fictional Whoniverse, organizations change their names all the time, so presumably UNIT's mandate and governance structure changed in the 2000s. You will note in "The Sontaran Strategem" that it's also stated that UNIT now answers to the Department of Homeworld Security.
- The Doctor called it United Nations in Aliens of London, but since then, it's been either only referred to by initials or consistently called Unified when spoken in full, after the real UN complained or something.
- UNIT have called themselves the Unified Intelligence Taskforce, ever since the 2005 revival. No canon reason has been given for UNIT's change in name.
- Plot hole not discontinuity: why would UNIT send that many armed soldiers just to tell Sarah Jane that the Doctor is dead? Why draw that kind of attention? There's no indication they expected any danger. Why not just send a couple of soldiers in one vehicle and be a lot less obtrusive?
- UNIT probably knows that dangerous aliens on Bannerman Road are not uncommon, so they sent that many soldiers for "safety in numbers". Also, Tia Karim could be a very high-ranking, important member of UNIT, so that number of soldiers could be deemed nessesary for her protection.
- That doesn't wash for me. If shes' so important that she can't go out in public without that sort of protection (and even the Brig isn't that important), then someone else should be sent for death notices (esp. for a semi-secret organization). And there is no way they can believe Bannerman road is so dangerous that they can't travel there without a lot of guns - else they'd evacuate the area and not have the civillion population there. And even if that was the reason (and I don't buy it, as I said) then such an explanation would need to be given on screen, because it is not something the (child) audience could intuit. I think it's clearly done for "shock value" with no consideration for the fact that it makes no sense.
- But it does make some sense, once you know Tia Karim's plan. She needed to make sure that at least the one former long time companion that she could identify fell into the trap at the base. She could even have possibly had an alternate reason to bring her in all ready to go, like detection of alien tech that needed to be cleared up back and the base anyway.
- That doesn't wash for me. If shes' so important that she can't go out in public without that sort of protection (and even the Brig isn't that important), then someone else should be sent for death notices (esp. for a semi-secret organization). And there is no way they can believe Bannerman road is so dangerous that they can't travel there without a lot of guns - else they'd evacuate the area and not have the civillion population there. And even if that was the reason (and I don't buy it, as I said) then such an explanation would need to be given on screen, because it is not something the (child) audience could intuit. I think it's clearly done for "shock value" with no consideration for the fact that it makes no sense.
- UNIT probably knows that dangerous aliens on Bannerman Road are not uncommon, so they sent that many soldiers for "safety in numbers". Also, Tia Karim could be a very high-ranking, important member of UNIT, so that number of soldiers could be deemed nessesary for her protection.
- Sarah Jane asked what happened to the sonic screwdriver, and the Doctor said the Shansheeth had taken it off him, so how come later he says it's in theTARDIS when the Shansheeth can't get inside to put it there in the first place.
- The Shansheeth took the TARDIS so the Shanseeth also took the screwdriver.
- The Doctor left the Screwdriver in the Tardis; the Shansheeth took the TARDIS, so they took the Screwdriver.
- The Shansheeth took the TARDIS so the Shanseeth also took the screwdriver.
- How have Barbara and Ian not aged since the 1960s?
- As opposed to when? Has anything in the spinoff media contradicted this?
- William Russell filmed linking video for at least The Crusade with no effort to hide his age. However, remember that Sarah Jane was getting her information from the Internet, so it is possible the rumor said both while it was Barbara who stayed young and Ian alone aged. They were seperated at times in their travels.
- Nowhere in the Links was a year stated; it could have been 150 years after The Crusade since it is stated that he never ages; presumably, this is an overstatement and he does age, but slowly.
- Also, the Crusade links are not necessarily considered canon, even by the generally open nature of it.
- Nowhere in the Links was a year stated; it could have been 150 years after The Crusade since it is stated that he never ages; presumably, this is an overstatement and he does age, but slowly.
- William Russell filmed linking video for at least The Crusade with no effort to hide his age. However, remember that Sarah Jane was getting her information from the Internet, so it is possible the rumor said both while it was Barbara who stayed young and Ian alone aged. They were seperated at times in their travels.
- It's a good question, maybe somebody wanted to leave a story idea open for use later. Maybe they dropped by St Cedd's College before the time war and had an issue.
- As opposed to when? Has anything in the spinoff media contradicted this?
- Why didn't the Shansheeth just kill the Doctor when they had the chance, instead of leaving him on that planet? Then they wouldn't even have to fake the funeral.
- They're stupid, that's why.
- Ha! Not so much, once you consider what usually happens to random unheard of baddies who just try to kill the Doctor when they have the chance.
- They're stupid, that's why.
- Why do both Jo and Sarah Jane remember the same type of TARDIS key when the Doctor was using different types of keys for much of the time Sarah Jane traveled with him?
- Sarah Jane has seen the current TARDIS key during her encounters with the Tenth Doctor.
- Haven't they established that the outer appearance of the key isn't important, that it's an atomic or subatomic structure that's being read? Of course, then we have to ask how their memories would be able to reproduce that.
- Them memory weave may be some sort of temporal presence scanner that uses the impression in their minds and the proximity to the TARDIS to scan the past of the TARDIS for the needed shape.
- How can Jo remember Shirna smiling? It happened after the TARDIS left.